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Guns, control and culture.

#101 User is offline   Vengeance 

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 06:31 PM

View PostNicodimas, on 06 October 2015 - 01:11 AM, said:

@ Venge

http://www.cnn.com/2...ence/index.html

Quote

After seven Chicago area communities established interrupters in the early 2000s, a National Institute of Justice evaluation found shootings dropped by up to 73%.


Treat the source. The idea of putting money behind making more laws, when the current ones are not being enforced. This is step one. Enforce current laws and fund current gun law programs. Show that these can be effective. They have done these in the past, but the money is not there.

Place more money toward crisis management teams as shown above.


I agree money does need to go toward these things. That is the kicker of course. It is quiet easy to pass a law and another thing to get congress to actually allocate any money toward anything. Especially with the RNC all up licking the NRA's ass. If we can fund missles toward ISIS then we can find a billion or so dollars toward forcing people to get finger print sensors on all guns. There should not be a gun sold that does not require a finger print id to shoot. Absolutely no reason for it period.
How many fucking people do I have to hammer in order to get that across.
Hinter - Vengy - DIE. I trusted you you bastard!!!!!!!

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#102 User is offline   Vengeance 

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 06:34 PM

View PostNicodimas, on 05 October 2015 - 10:24 PM, said:

Sidebar: Been thinking and reviewing stats today.

What about instead of pumping money into new law, what about using current law on the books to go about urban areas to remove guns from people that shouldn't have access to them? This would actually lend credibility to your argument and the pro gunners might relax a little if they saw results...



Why only urban areas? There are lots of people in rural areas that have unlicensed fire arms. So you want to remove the guns from black people and then let the good white guys have have never done any harm keep theirs? Give me a break. Nico you are better then that. I know that you aren't a shill for the NRA or for the white supremacists don't attempt to pull there batshit crazy arguments in to your own. It only discredits any points that you have made or are attempting to make.
How many fucking people do I have to hammer in order to get that across.
Hinter - Vengy - DIE. I trusted you you bastard!!!!!!!

Steven Erikson made drowning in alien cum possible - Obdigore
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#103 User is offline   Vengeance 

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 06:39 PM

View PostAndorion, on 06 October 2015 - 04:42 AM, said:

View Postamphibian, on 06 October 2015 - 02:00 AM, said:

View PostNicodimas, on 05 October 2015 - 10:24 PM, said:

Sidebar: Been thinking and reviewing stats today.

What about instead of pumping money into new law, what about using current law on the books to go about urban areas to remove guns from people that shouldn't have access to them? This would actually lend credibility to your argument and the pro gunners might relax a little if they saw results...

Know what this reads like to me? "Take the guns away from black people because they steal them."

Off the top of my head, the only mass shooting black people were the DC snipers, the LA guy who died in a fire, and maybe the former reporter who murdered the other reporters on camera.

The vast, vast majority of mass shooters have had legally obtained weapons and were white men.

If I'm more charitable in how I read that, you're talking about home searches for possible firearms based on something that wouldn't clear a warrant in almost every court. That's a huge, huge undertaking and it'd be challenged immediately in court with a high likelihood of being shot down.


How is 'shouldn't have access' defined? Criminal record? Health problems (mental)? Record of domestic abuse?

With the gun show and online loophole, how can anybody even begin to know?

The church shooter - Dylan something.. I think his gun was gifted to him by his uncle . How can that be checked?



If every gun had a finger print that made it so that only a guns owner could fire the gun, and for that finger print to be changed a new user would have to be added. If a gun was transferred to a different party for any reason then the finger print would have to be deleted and added. This could not be done by a owner but could only be done at a gun shop. Thus every time a gun changes hands the new owner would be noted.
How many fucking people do I have to hammer in order to get that across.
Hinter - Vengy - DIE. I trusted you you bastard!!!!!!!

Steven Erikson made drowning in alien cum possible - Obdigore
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#104 User is offline   LinearPhilosopher 

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 06:42 PM

View PostVengeance, on 06 October 2015 - 06:39 PM, said:

View PostAndorion, on 06 October 2015 - 04:42 AM, said:

View Postamphibian, on 06 October 2015 - 02:00 AM, said:

View PostNicodimas, on 05 October 2015 - 10:24 PM, said:

Sidebar: Been thinking and reviewing stats today.

What about instead of pumping money into new law, what about using current law on the books to go about urban areas to remove guns from people that shouldn't have access to them? This would actually lend credibility to your argument and the pro gunners might relax a little if they saw results...

Know what this reads like to me? "Take the guns away from black people because they steal them."

Off the top of my head, the only mass shooting black people were the DC snipers, the LA guy who died in a fire, and maybe the former reporter who murdered the other reporters on camera.

The vast, vast majority of mass shooters have had legally obtained weapons and were white men.

If I'm more charitable in how I read that, you're talking about home searches for possible firearms based on something that wouldn't clear a warrant in almost every court. That's a huge, huge undertaking and it'd be challenged immediately in court with a high likelihood of being shot down.


How is 'shouldn't have access' defined? Criminal record? Health problems (mental)? Record of domestic abuse?

With the gun show and online loophole, how can anybody even begin to know?

The church shooter - Dylan something.. I think his gun was gifted to him by his uncle . How can that be checked?



If every gun had a finger print that made it so that only a guns owner could fire the gun, and for that finger print to be changed a new user would have to be added. If a gun was transferred to a different party for any reason then the finger print would have to be deleted and added. This could not be done by a owner but could only be done at a gun shop. Thus every time a gun changes hands the new owner would be noted.


i take it you didn't read that globe and mail article i posted earlier
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#105 User is offline   Vengeance 

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 06:44 PM

FYI.

I grew up in a rural community and kept guns at every single door to my house as a teenager. Mostly to shoot dogs that tried to harass our sheep. I also slept with upwards of 10 guns in easy and quick range. I am not against gun ownership at all. I am against irresponsible gun ownership and the NRA (which is controlled by gun manufacturers). There is absolutely no reason for our country to not have smart gun control and responsible gun ownership. Shooting guns safely can be an enjoyable experience. Safely and responsibly are the key things. It is obvious that large amounts of people can not be relied upon to be safe gun owners. So for the safety of all citizens gun control should be implemented.
How many fucking people do I have to hammer in order to get that across.
Hinter - Vengy - DIE. I trusted you you bastard!!!!!!!

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#106 User is offline   Vengeance 

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 06:53 PM

View PostLinearPhilosopher, on 06 October 2015 - 06:42 PM, said:

View PostVengeance, on 06 October 2015 - 06:39 PM, said:

View PostAndorion, on 06 October 2015 - 04:42 AM, said:

View Postamphibian, on 06 October 2015 - 02:00 AM, said:

View PostNicodimas, on 05 October 2015 - 10:24 PM, said:

Sidebar: Been thinking and reviewing stats today.

What about instead of pumping money into new law, what about using current law on the books to go about urban areas to remove guns from people that shouldn't have access to them? This would actually lend credibility to your argument and the pro gunners might relax a little if they saw results...

Know what this reads like to me? "Take the guns away from black people because they steal them."

Off the top of my head, the only mass shooting black people were the DC snipers, the LA guy who died in a fire, and maybe the former reporter who murdered the other reporters on camera.

The vast, vast majority of mass shooters have had legally obtained weapons and were white men.

If I'm more charitable in how I read that, you're talking about home searches for possible firearms based on something that wouldn't clear a warrant in almost every court. That's a huge, huge undertaking and it'd be challenged immediately in court with a high likelihood of being shot down.


How is 'shouldn't have access' defined? Criminal record? Health problems (mental)? Record of domestic abuse?

With the gun show and online loophole, how can anybody even begin to know?

The church shooter - Dylan something.. I think his gun was gifted to him by his uncle . How can that be checked?



If every gun had a finger print that made it so that only a guns owner could fire the gun, and for that finger print to be changed a new user would have to be added. If a gun was transferred to a different party for any reason then the finger print would have to be deleted and added. This could not be done by a owner but could only be done at a gun shop. Thus every time a gun changes hands the new owner would be noted.


i take it you didn't read that globe and mail article i posted earlier


I didn't. I knew the tech was there and has been for a long time. I know that gun fantatics would fight like mad to prevent it. But it is something that has to be implemented here. How many 11yrs should kill 8 yr before it is done. No child should be able to pick up there parents gun and fire it. Ever. Oh I know that the NRA will bring out the one or two kids that prevented something bad from happening by having a gun and killing someone. But put that against how many kids are killed each year (hint we don't know because health services are not allowed to collect that data) by other kids and now you have two lives that are just starting totally ruined. Over and over and over again.
How many fucking people do I have to hammer in order to get that across.
Hinter - Vengy - DIE. I trusted you you bastard!!!!!!!

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#107 User is offline   LinearPhilosopher 

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 08:30 PM

It isn't a question of how many vengeance, it's a question of whose children die venge. As long as the people profiting from gun and ammo sales aren't personally affected it's simply not their problem what people do with their products. Seriously you're expecting ethical behavior from a GUN company?
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Posted 06 October 2015 - 08:44 PM

I always want to weigh in on these dicussions but I'm worried I'll be branded as just another paranoid racist lower middle class white gun nut.

I do find it interesting that violent crime has declined pretty steadily. You wouldn't know it from watching the news but tragedies get ratings. Seems like parenting and families have fallen by the wayside in favor of self indulgence and glamorization of self. Community has given way to online socialization that fosters a sense that no one else is real and anonymity gives cowards a chance to say things they'd never say in person and egg each other on to horrible acts.

I wonder sometimes if the rise in these incidences isn't more tied to the ever more popular cult of self promotion. From what a lot of these guys write it seems like they're aiming to be noticed for the first time and talked about for years. They troll online echo chambers that reinforce their narrow world view and feed into their hatred and sense of victimization.

Also if you're a parent and you let your young child have access to firearms you're a moron. That's why we have safes and locks. Letting them learn safe firearm handling in a safe and supervised environment is the proper thing. Drilling the 4 safety rules and how to check and clear a firearm can be important skills. Shooting as a discipline also ingrains a sense of safety and respect for what is essentially a dangerous tool. I'd never hide my table saw from my son but I'll make sure it's secure and when the time comes for him to learn to use it I will be right there next to him teaching him how to do it safely and correctly.

The Eddie Eagle program for school kids was a good thing though, it drove home the importance of telling an adult if you saw an unsecured firearm. Kids are curious about things and they find things you think are hidden.

The vast majority of gun owners are reasonable responsible people but after hearing some of the vitriol directed at them they begin to dig their heels in and pull back. When people write opinion pieces with things like "Gun Nuts" in the title it automatically puts folks on the defensive. That's a pretty clear indicator that anything I say will be rebutted with the old "He's just a crazy paranoid white gun nut" line. It's the same as me calling everyone who supports the Affordable Care Act a Communist. It's blatantly untrue but allows me to discount anything they say as the ravings of a lunatic.

Safety technology for firearms is also constantly evolving. Nobody wants to come home to hear their kid shot somebody. Loaded chamber indicators, internal locks on firearms, better external locks, quick access safes that are actually secure, these are things a responsible gun owner welcomes and uses on a regular basis.

On the flip side I can't even get my iPhone to recognize my fingerprint on a regular basis so I'm surely not going to trust a gun I'm picking up in the middle of the night while I'm shaky and sweaty from fear to recognize my finger. I pray to God that I'll never be in that situation but if I ever am I don't want to see the low battery light blinking on my pistol. If the technology gets better and the police and military adopt it then lets go for it but until that it's basically unproven in the real world.

This was a little disjointed I guess but I think a lot about this stuff and what the root causes are and why they seem more prevelant. Also it seems like the rhetoric from both sides just polarizes things more than it really should.
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#109 User is offline   Nicodimas 

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 08:54 PM

View PostVengeance, on 06 October 2015 - 06:34 PM, said:

View PostNicodimas, on 05 October 2015 - 10:24 PM, said:

Sidebar: Been thinking and reviewing stats today.

What about instead of pumping money into new law, what about using current law on the books to go about urban areas to remove guns from people that shouldn't have access to them? This would actually lend credibility to your argument and the pro gunners might relax a little if they saw results...



Why only urban areas? There are lots of people in rural areas that have unlicensed fire arms. So you want to remove the guns from black people and then let the good white guys have have never done any harm keep theirs? Give me a break. Nico you are better then that. I know that you aren't a shill for the NRA or for the white supremacists don't attempt to pull there batshit crazy arguments in to your own. It only discredits any points that you have made or are attempting to make.


I am little dissapointed at y’all on this one. I guess it's because I sold guns, but people that shouldn’t have then are the ones that have lost rights to guns . I hope we all agree people that the courts determined that have lost this right, they should no longer have them…

Also we are going to have to address this argument Venge at some point if we are talking about guns, it’s not racist to point out 67% of all gun murder's occurs in the top 50 metros. Some states the vast majority happens in small parts of each metro ...

Earlier I pointed out that crisis management teams <mental health> reduced gun violence by 73% in these areas, this sounds like a fantastic area that can actually be implemented.

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 06 October 2015 - 08:56 PM

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#110 User is offline   amphibian 

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 11:03 PM

View PostNicodimas, on 06 October 2015 - 08:54 PM, said:

I am little dissapointed at y’all on this one. I guess it's because I sold guns, but people that shouldn’t have then are the ones that have lost rights to guns . I hope we all agree people that the courts determined that have lost this right, they should no longer have them…

Also we are going to have to address this argument Venge at some point if we are talking about guns, it’s not racist to point out 67% of all gun murder's occurs in the top 50 metros. Some states the vast majority happens in small parts of each metro ...

Earlier I pointed out that crisis management teams <mental health> reduced gun violence by 73% in these areas, this sounds like a fantastic area that can actually be implemented.

The rates at which blacks and whites get felony convictions/incarceration/fined for similar crimes (and thus lose the right to guns, as you put it) is undeniably racist. Furthermore, the crime rates correlate more with the tracking of poverty rates in congregated groups than by tracking simple "city/country" or "felons/non-felons". We're also not really talking about the larger issue of gun murders here. We're talking more about the specific issue of mass shootings.

Also, there are huge issues with how to spend money on these programs and whether the constant quick revocation of said money does almost as much damage as the help the program did. Chicago in particular has had a terrible time with this, which has been exacerbated by Rahm Emanuel being a pretty bad mayor after years of Daley's subtle mismanagement.

The Chicago alderwomen and aldermen are right now talking about all of this:

https://twitter.com/...479862528593920

https://twitter.com/...525437890408448

https://twitter.com/...520834008391680

https://twitter.com/...525933548052480

One of their most cogent points is that despite enacting strict gun control laws including the banning of CCW, the city of Chicago has a ton of guns being used in murders because surrounding Chicago, the laws in Illinois are lax. They also say that moving police from desk duties to "hot zones" is somewhat of a trick because there are not enough police to adequately patrol even the hot zones - a point borne out by 911 callers being told to call aldermen/alderwomen by the police because the police can't get there in timely manner.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 06 October 2015 - 11:12 PM

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#111 User is offline   Nicodimas 

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 11:27 PM

View Postamphibian, on 06 October 2015 - 11:03 PM, said:

View PostNicodimas, on 06 October 2015 - 08:54 PM, said:

I am little dissapointed at y’all on this one. I guess it's because I sold guns, but people that shouldn’t have then are the ones that have lost rights to guns . I hope we all agree people that the courts determined that have lost this right, they should no longer have them…

Also we are going to have to address this argument Venge at some point if we are talking about guns, it’s not racist to point out 67% of all gun murder's occurs in the top 50 metros. Some states the vast majority happens in small parts of each metro ...

Earlier I pointed out that crisis management teams <mental health> reduced gun violence by 73% in these areas, this sounds like a fantastic area that can actually be implemented.

We're talking more about the specific issue of mass shootings.


I liked this article Amphibian on this same situation:

http://www.chicagotr...005-column.html

I found it strange that some aren't putting the correlation of mass shooting in both these areas..

^Ill check out your stuff, have to run.
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#112 User is offline   Vengeance 

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Posted 07 October 2015 - 12:23 AM

Here is why we need gun control


Police verse preschoolers
How many fucking people do I have to hammer in order to get that across.
Hinter - Vengy - DIE. I trusted you you bastard!!!!!!!

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#113 User is offline   Gnaw 

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Posted 07 October 2015 - 12:25 AM

Ok, so I'll tell the full story of my recent purchase and why it scared the crap out of me.

First, as I've explained elsewhere I sustained partial and full thickness (2nd & 3rd) burns a few years ago. Both of my arms and hands are heavily scarred as well as the back of my neck (other areas as well but I'm speaking here only of what's visible to others). As a result of that I tend to not pay much attention to my appearance. For example, I shave every couple or three months and I get a hair cut ever couple or three years whether I need one or not. Second, The ten years I lived in North Carolina, I picked up and have consciously retained a southern accent. Third, the weekend before last I had the shits and got maybe 6 hours of sleep all weekend. Fourth, as a result of the burns I have moderate nerve damage to my hands that sometimes makes my handwriting illegible even to myself.

Which brings me to Monday aftenoon and picking up my FNH PS90. I'm stuttering and can't put full thoughtful sentences together due to lack of sleep. My hands are shaking due to the nerve damage aggravated by lack of sleep. My hair is two inches below my shoulders. I'm sporting a 2+ month old patchy beard and mustache. Pretty much I sound and act like an ignorant, oxy popping, illiterate meth addict from the deep depths of Appalachia. I'm none of those things but this gun dealer had no way of knowing that. The only info he had was that I didn't trip a NICS hold, which we've already established won't block somebody on the terrorist watch list.

One would think that a dealer would be somewhat nervous about selling me a weapon that is clearly only useful as an assault rifle or for shooting groundhogs. And there are no groundhogs anywhere around here. Instead he tried to sell me 4x the ammo I wanted.

It took a total of 20 minutes to fill out paperwork, decide that I only needed 500 rounds vs 2000, and to write a check that I had to decipher for the owner.

There is very definitely something wrong with that time frame.

As a gun owner who does believe that, for good or bad, the second amendment does provide some protection for the average person to be able to own guns, I cannot fathom why that purchase was able to be made in that manner. A few things that should be done and cannot (in my mind) logically be interpreted as an abridgement of the second amendment.

  • 72 hour wait period. If you need a gun sooner than that you need police protection.
  • Magazines for all guns to be limited to 10 rounds max. (We already have a 3 shell minimum for shotguns; are geese really worth more than people?)
  • Assault weapons and ammunition ban. Not to be limited by looks (to get around the right's "what's the use of banning scary looking guns" argument.) Limit by ammunition; if it's a military grade caliber it doesn't belong in civilian hands. 5.56mm, 5.57mm. 7.62mm. A side effect of this would be that many of the guns in the wild would be rendered eventually useless via a shrinking supply of ammunition. Further sales of weapons that use those ammunitions to be banned. As well as conversion kits that would allow them to be re-introduced. Meaning that if you buy an AK-47 in a civilian caliber it cannot legally be converted back to 7.62mm.
  • Lengthen the minimum barrel length to that of the average 'true' hunting rifle.
  • Ammunition purchase limit. At most 200 rounds per day. Only that high because I've legitimately purchased that many before heading for the mountains during elk season.
  • A 'fingerprint' round fired at the factory and both the shell (extractor marks while not unique can seriously narrow the pool) and the bullet sent to the FBI or BATF for digital processing. Results available to all law enforcement agencies.
  • A limit on caliber allowed for civilian use. Nothing larger than a .45 pistol and .375 H&H rifle can be sold to civilians. Exit the Barret sniper rifle (which can be purchased by civvys.) Precedent: we already restrict 10 gauge to police/military only.
  • Fingerprint scanners on all new guns. As somebody already pointed out our phones have the for gawd's sake.
  • Sound suppressors back to being universally banned. They are currently legal in 45 states. WTF????
  • A misdemeanor charge for failing to report a stolen weapon. Upgraded to felony if the weapon is used in the commission of a crime. No statute of limitations.
  • (Subject to the "law" of unintended consequences): 5 years automagically applied to your sentence if you have a gun on your person during the commission of a crime. (There is currently a statute about having a gun "in you possession" during a crime.) That is counter-productive since it can include a weapon the perpetrator left at home, in the car, etc.

I'm sure there are more that I'm missing, but I think those points could and should be implemented ASAP without any undo infringement of the 2nd amendment except in the most extreme interpretations. If the government can legally restrict my ownership of:
  • fully automatic weapons (which it does),
  • ground to air missiles (which it does)
  • mortars (which it does)
  • tanks, F/A-18s, Littoral combat ships, etc (which it does)
it can legally restrict my access to military grade calibers and weapons designed to shoot them.



As for body armor. The purchase of such should be allowed absolutely. But they should contain some form of serial number, rfid, or such to uniquely identify each piece. Purchase of one should be entered into a database maintained by the FBI and accessible to all law enforcement agencies. If it is borrowed, stolen or sold the owner should be required to keep a record of such. If your vest is used in a crime, you can be subject to arrest for materiel accomplice without paperwork proving you were not in possession and who was last in possession as far as you can prove).


Nico, your refute please. Using logic as opposed to kneejerkism please. I've already allowed you the 2nd amendment. How do any of those infringe?
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#114 User is offline   amphibian 

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Posted 07 October 2015 - 12:32 AM

View PostNicodimas, on 06 October 2015 - 11:27 PM, said:


I liked this article Amphibian on this same situation:

http://www.chicagotr...005-column.html

I found it strange that some aren't putting the correlation of mass shooting in both these areas..

^Ill check out your stuff, have to run.

It's behind a paywall. I can't read the link.
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#115 User is offline   EmperorMagus 

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Posted 07 October 2015 - 04:24 AM

I'm sorry Nico.
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#116 User is offline   Solidsnape 

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Posted 07 October 2015 - 06:19 AM

View PostEmperorMagus, on 07 October 2015 - 04:24 AM, said:



See, now that's absolutely tragic. You can say all you want about all this shit ^
If that shotgun wasn't there, that girl would be alive now....

That story has completely fucked my groove.
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#117 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 07 October 2015 - 06:44 AM

View PostEmperorMagus, on 07 October 2015 - 04:24 AM, said:



I..... I don't even know what to say.

A little girl is dead.
Her family is possibly destroyed
An 11 year olds life is ruined.
All because some criminally stupid person left a loaded shotgun within reach of a child.
I hope they try that person for the murder of the girl
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#118 User is offline   LinearPhilosopher 

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Posted 07 October 2015 - 11:38 AM

Criminal negligence at the very least

This post has been edited by LinearPhilosopher: 07 October 2015 - 11:38 AM

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#119 User is offline   Obdigore 

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Posted 07 October 2015 - 12:43 PM

Wait, why are we apologizing to Nico because under his suggestions this thing would be even more common. He is espousing giving everyone guns and just letting people shoot each other, including children.
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Posted 07 October 2015 - 01:18 PM

View PostObdigore, on 07 October 2015 - 12:43 PM, said:

Wait, why are we apologizing to Nico because under his suggestions this thing would be even more common. He is espousing giving everyone guns and just letting people shoot each other, including children.


Mate, that's a bit harsh. Nico isn't saying that. He's advocating greater education and enforcement of current laws, plus I believe more secure storage, so I think you've drawn a long bow there. I'd call him a gun advocate, but not a gun nut.
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