[Tattersail_]

Maark Abbott, on 31 May 2016 - 07:43 AM, said:

Have to say I was disappointed with this episode. Very little happened, and what did was all entirely predictable.

That was my initial thought. Yet you need to develop events in order to make them magnificent, I think these sort of episodes add depth. First of all we see the Freys which we haven't seen in a long time, then we are introduced to Heartsbane which may be significant (could be the sword that kills the Night King). Honestly, i'd stretch the seasons out and add more episodes like this one in between episodes like the last two which were fucking awesome. I don't think every episode could be awesome, and it'd just get stale.

[Maark Abbott]

Tattersail_, on 31 May 2016 - 07:47 AM, said:

Maark Abbott, on 31 May 2016 - 07:43 AM, said:

Have to say I was disappointed with this episode. Very little happened, and what did was all entirely predictable.

That was my initial thought. Yet you need to develop events in order to make them magnificent, I think these sort of episodes add depth. First of all we see the Freys which we haven't seen in a long time, then we are introduced to Heartsbane which may be significant (could be the sword that kills the Night King). Honestly, i'd stretch the seasons out and add more episodes like this one in between episodes like the last two which were fucking awesome. I don't think every episode could be awesome, and it'd just get stale.

Perhaps. I'd have preferred a focus on fewer characters so more could actually develop. An entire episode of filler is... ehhhhh. Hopefully the next one will be better.

[Khellendros]

As Tatts said, sometimes you need those episodes in order to make subsequent ones more awesome. You need setup, otherwise nothing after that will make sense. And besides, it wasn't all filler: Arya's, Jaime's, and Sam's plots all got kickstarted here. It's just that those are the ones you care less about

[Tapper]

Terez, on 30 May 2016 - 11:42 PM, said:

I'm sure getting pregnant is a top priority for Margaery, but it has to be unlikely from the story perspective, unless Margaery is going to get killed Talisa-style. We all know Tommen is going to die, and it seems unlikely that his heirs would inherit.

As for the Waif, it wouldn't surprise me if this is some kind of test for her too, but it looks like Arya is out. She couldn't bring herself to kill an innocent person, so what place does she have with the Faceless Men now? I doubt this is exactly how it will go in the books; she needs to take away a little something more from them for it to be worth anything, but the show is trying to cut corners to reach an ending at this point.

The summary for next week:

Quote

The High Sparrow eyes another target. Jaime confronts a hero. Arya makes a plan. The North is reminded.

The last two bits are obvious enough. What about the first two? Who would the High Sparrow's new target be? The Hound, maybe? I tend to doubt that because I doubt the Hound and the High Sparrow will personally interact in this episode, if the Hound is on the Quiet Isle or elsewhere Brienne might encounter him. Who else? Pycelle? Olenna? We see Olenna chastising Cersei in the preview for putting a pox on both their houses. And who is Jaime's hero? There aren't many heroes running around between King's Landing and Riverrun. Is it just the Blackfish? We saw them speaking in the preview. What makes the Blackfish such a hero? Just the fact that he rallied the troops to hold Riverrun? Maybe a bit of hyperbole.

'Target' seems to be much more about bringing someone down. It seems the campaign against the royal family is about done, with Cersei shamed, Jaime banished, Margaery 'converted', Tommen tutored, Loras a hostage against Mace's (cough*QueenofThorns*cough*) behavior.

Spoiler

With Varys probably staying in Mereen (for now), I think they might use the Faith Militant to kill Kevan?

The hero mentioned in relation to Jaime is imho probably just the Blackfish - I really wouldn't know who else could qualify. Maybe we get Jaime monologue/talk to Bronn about him, to establish his background a bit more.
I guess they'll condense the Riverrun siege to just this episode (considering Walder gave Edmure to his son) and maybe we'll get an actiony escape scene for the Blackfish.

[Abyss]

... But with Brienne on the way and Sansa in need of allies who aren't Littlefinger, I wonder whether they may not go a different way altogether. We know how the book sequence goes, but that may be a tangent the show doesn't need or want.

[Tapper]

Abyss, on 31 May 2016 - 10:18 AM, said:

... But with Brienne on the way and Sansa in need of allies who aren't Littlefinger, I wonder whether they may not go a different way altogether. We know how the book sequence goes, but that may be a tangent the show doesn't need or want.

True - but if the Blackfish joins Sansa, then he needs to break the siege, get out of the castle with some soldiers and then get past Moat Cailin (sp), where Littlefinger and Bronze Yohn (a good punk band name?) are now sitting. If Littlefinger's '...The Vale joins the fray' meant 'The Vale joins the Frey' this is really Bad News for the Blackfish (which is a much better punk band name).

[Tattersail_]

Interesting little article..

https://www.buzzfeed...8aVN#.ekQxjwVa8

[JPK]

I don't think the plays were filler though. I think they're Arya's way out. I think the training by the FM primarily served to allow her to pass as someone else. Thus acting is a natural transition from the FM and a good front to travel and get back into the 9k.

This post has been edited by Just Plain Kitsu: 31 May 2016 - 05:00 PM

[End of Disc One]

I hate how so many episodes end with a triumphant Dany moment

[Nevyn]

End of Disc One, on 31 May 2016 - 04:58 PM, said:

I hate how so many episodes end with a triumphant Dany moment

I hate when they end with a triumphant Dany speech and she hasnt really done anything new. When she kills Dothraki or walks through fire, yeah, end the episode. Last week's ending felt like high note for high note's sake.

[Nevyn]

Just Plain Kitsu, on 31 May 2016 - 04:57 PM, said:

I don't think the plays were filler though. I think they're Arya's way out. I think the training by the FM primarily served to allow her to pass as someone else. Thus acting is a natural transition from the FM and a good front to travel and get back into the 9k.

Indeed, she may replace the jealous young actress and join the troupe (perhaps when she hears they are headed to Westeros)

[Lycaenion]

End of Disc One, on 31 May 2016 - 04:58 PM, said:

I hate how so many episodes end with a triumphant Dany moment

Me too. I mean, seriously, what is her motivation for all this? Why go through all this trouble just to go to Westeros, shake things up even more while they're already in disarray, and sit on a throne no one wants you on? Because your brother said that a Targ should sit on the throne and he's dead now? To take revenge? On who? Your father tried to burn freaking everybody, it's a good thing he's dead! You call Robert Baratheon an usurper, but you're about to do the same thing, but when you do it, it's okay? Sigh...she so annoys/frustrates me.

When, a couple of eps back, she started spouting off all her fancy titles and the khals burst out in laughter I was like FINALLY! Jezus woman, stop relying on your freaking titles and whatever you think you are owed. I'll give her Breaker of Chains, but she's not the Mother of Dragons (she didn't even know how to feed them at first and has been mishandling them ever since), and the other titles are just meaningless. I seriously believe she's going to turn out to be the bad guy in all of this. She's going to descend upon Westeros, destroy everything, go crazy like her old man and start screaming to burn them all. And she will then be promptly stabbed through the neck by Arya, who thinks she talks too damn much *fantasizes*. (Keep in mind, I only watch the show, I don't read the books, but I've been reading along with the Tor.com read).

[Cause]

I am pleased yo here you say that, especially as an only TV show viewer. The TV show in my mind has gone to great lengths to shield the viewer from just how bad a ruler she is. She has great intentions, frees all the slaves and leaves them all to starve to death in her new system. The TV show hints at some of things but not to the extent I feel they deserve. Only now do we see more of it. And we see that the other slaver cities have been retaken. Not sure if she is the villian exactly but so far she has destroyed everything she has touched.

[Terez]

Tapper, on 31 May 2016 - 12:17 PM, said:

Abyss, on 31 May 2016 - 10:18 AM, said:

... But with Brienne on the way and Sansa in need of allies who aren't Littlefinger, I wonder whether they may not go a different way altogether. We know how the book sequence goes, but that may be a tangent the show doesn't need or want.

True - but if the Blackfish joins Sansa, then he needs to break the siege, get out of the castle with some soldiers and then get past Moat Cailin (sp), where Littlefinger and Bronze Yohn (a good punk band name?) are now sitting. If Littlefinger's '...The Vale joins the fray' meant 'The Vale joins the Frey' this is really Bad News for the Blackfish (which is a much better punk band name).

It's unlikely that they would have the Vale join the fray at all if they weren't going to join the Freys and complicate things. Again, this is a very good time indeed to introduce Lady Stoneheart. Wasn't it Black Walder who mentioned that the Brotherhood was causing them problems? And Wyman Manderly has been cast!

This could get interesting. Robin is after all Sansa's cousin, and things could change very drastically if he were to learn that Littlefinger killed his mother. A truth that Sansa knows.

Nevyn, on 31 May 2016 - 05:10 PM, said:

End of Disc One, on 31 May 2016 - 04:58 PM, said:

I hate how so many episodes end with a triumphant Dany moment

I hate when they end with a triumphant Dany speech and she hasnt really done anything new. When she kills Dothraki or walks through fire, yeah, end the episode. Last week's ending felt like high note for high note's sake.

Exactly. I knew they'd have a hard time keeping up the momentum of the last two episodes; I think this was their attempt to do that. It probably worked for some people; I doubt it worked for anyone here.

Lycaenion, on 31 May 2016 - 06:35 PM, said:

I mean, seriously, what is her motivation for all this? Why go through all this trouble just to go to Westeros, shake things up even more while they're already in disarray, and sit on a throne no one wants you on?

I dunno if that's really true. But that's something that the show has heretofore been bad at conveying. There are lots of loyal Targaryen folks; in the books, Dorne was among them. The episode coming up where Brienne meets Ian McShane...just before that happened in the books, she met some loyal Targaryen folk at Cracklaw Point. There are various families who fought for the Targaryens up till the end who are still loyal, though many of them had their titles and lands taken. In the books, Varys is a Targaryen loyalist; Barristan Selmy also found that role appealing once he was dismissed. Whether or not their faith is misplaced is another question.

Lycaenion, on 31 May 2016 - 06:35 PM, said:

Because your brother said that a Targ should sit on the throne and he's dead now? To take revenge? On who? Your father tried to burn freaking everybody, it's a good thing he's dead! You call Robert Baratheon an usurper, but you're about to do the same thing, but when you do it, it's okay? Sigh...she so annoys/frustrates me.

Her family ruled for hundreds of years, so it's not so difficult to understand her perspective. Her beliefs get murky when she looks at it in terms of her superior bloodline; she has her brother for an example, and the stories of her father. What Robert and Tywin did to her family was monstrous, though, maybe even moreso than what Aerys was doing before Jaime killed him. They even killed the children. It was a bad way for Robert to begin his rule. Targaryen children had to be hidden because Robert wanted them all dead, and thus we have Viserys and Dany and Jon. The gods tossed coins, and Viserys got tails and Jon heads. We're not entirely sure about Dany yet, though clearly her motives are mostly benevolent.

Lycaenion, on 31 May 2016 - 06:35 PM, said:

When, a couple of eps back, she started spouting off all her fancy titles and the khals burst out in laughter I was like FINALLY! Jezus woman, stop relying on your freaking titles and whatever you think you are owed.

She started out thinking she wasn't owed anything. She just wanted to go home. All this business about taking back the throne is basically just her trying to make the best of a bad situation.

Lycaenion, on 31 May 2016 - 06:35 PM, said:

I'll give her Breaker of Chains, but she's not the Mother of Dragons (she didn't even know how to feed them at first and has been mishandling them ever since), and the other titles are just meaningless.

"Mother of Dragons" was never a literal title; she is the one who figured out how to hatch the eggs and she walked into the fire to be with them as they were born.

Lycaenion, on 31 May 2016 - 06:35 PM, said:

I seriously believe she's going to turn out to be the bad guy in all of this. She's going to descend upon Westeros, destroy everything, go crazy like her old man and start screaming to burn them all. And she will then be promptly stabbed through the neck by Arya, who thinks she talks too damn much *fantasizes*. (Keep in mind, I only watch the show, I don't read the books, but I've been reading along with the Tor.com read).

My view is that she will probably die before we get a chance to really see what kind of a ruler she would be in the long run. I really doubt she'll die, either in the books or the show, as a bad guy.

I have felt for a long time now that the (secret) Targaryens of mixed blood will eventually trump the incest Targaryens (possibly including the incest Lannisters). But I also kind of expect Jon to die.

[worry]

Tapper, on 31 May 2016 - 09:16 AM, said:

'Target' seems to be much more about bringing someone down. It seems the campaign against the royal family is about done, with Cersei shamed, Jaime banished, Margaery 'converted', Tommen tutored, Loras a hostage against Mace's (cough*QueenofThorns*cough*) behavior.

Spoiler

With Varys probably staying in Mereen (for now), I think they might use the Faith Militant to kill Kevan?

Spoiler

Not just the Faith Militant, but Lancel in particular. I think you're onto something.

[Binder of Demons]

So if Brienne is off to Riverrun, how many Oath Breakers will she get to kill using Oathkeeper?

You have Jaime on the way there, and of course there are all the Frey's that participated in the Red Wedding. I like the symmetry of it, but considering how bad her luck has been so far, something will inevitably have to go wrong.

Out of that last episode, the storyline I'm looking forward to most is Arya's, especially her showdown with The Waif, whenever that happens.

While the scene with Bran and Benjen probably had the most import, for his visions etc, I found the way it all unfolded to bit a bit underwhelming, as it felt kinda infodump-ish

[Defiance]

Good episode. The ending didn't really feel deserved though, especially after how the fourth episode ended. Did we really need another rousing Dany moment? I think a much more effective end to the episode would have been Arya blowing out the candle.

Also, not that big of a deal since Benjen has apparently been merged with Coldhands so in a sense it's a new character (I don't think they're the same in the books), but I kind of wish they'd had him riding an elk and surrounded by ravens like he was in the books.



I do think Daario makes a very good point: Dany is a conqueror, not a ruler.

[Tatterdemalion]

End of Disc One, on 31 May 2016 - 04:58 PM, said:

I hate how so many episodes end with a triumphant Dany moment

Finally caught up!

This was my biggest issue with the episode. Dany did nothing and it was all 'yo, big effects, people! Drama!' at the ending. I think it would have been WAY cooler to have it end on the reveal of Bran's saviour being Benjen. He pulls back his hood, it holds on him for a few seconds. Cut to Bran and Meera. Bran: Benjen. Episode ends. Way better. It's MYSTERIOUS as half the people will be like THAT GUY? and the other half will be like WHERE HAVE I SEEN THAT GUY? and the THIRD half will be like BENJENNNNNNNN!

I found the play scenes tooooo long... until this past episode I realized their purpose. As soon as Arya opted out, I understood that they were part of what has drawn her from the MFG and FM. So now I approve.

I thought Sam reverting to his cowering self was ENTIRELY within character. It's just like real victims of abuse who can face anyone but their tormentor. Jon's not around to back him anymore. He has to act. I think the long shot of Gilly looking at Sam Jr until Sam bursts back through is the evidence of his spine. Taking Heartsbane? Probably plot pertinent in seasons to come, if noticably crazy at the moment. But it could be a showing of his spine, too: he can stick it to his father if he can't stand up to him.

I really like the idea of 'joining the fray' as 'joining the Freys'. Clever, clever. I would be happy to see him involved in such a capacity, but his loss of Sansa still irks me. Littlefinger is smarter than that. He gave up a good opportunity with her bloodline for what, Robin? Was Sansa proving too hard to manipulate? I'm glad as anything her arc is back on track (after last season) but Littlefinger manipulates adults of all shapes and sizes: dumb princesses and competent leaders alike.

As for Dorne - completely agree they will be gone most all season, then arrive with an army at some point to curse the Lannister name.

Best scene of the season is still Ser Gregor pounding the public urinator's face off the wall.

[Tatterdemalion]

Tatterdemalion, on 01 June 2016 - 04:20 AM, said:

It's just like real victims of abuse who can face anyone but their tormentor.

Please note: I don't really know shit about this. I just meant that I could imagine Sam being braver to ANYONE, king or queen - except his father.

This post has been edited by Tatterdemalion: 01 June 2016 - 04:22 AM

[worry]

I think it's enough to know that's how it works for him.

I'm of two minds on the Dany scene. Obviously it's reiterating what we saw in the fire scene, and without much else it feels abrupt and needless -- a more mundane Dany scene should have come earlier, probably. On the other hand, it does mean she and Drogon are reunited (which I thought it would linger on more, tbh, in terms of sentiment). In addition, the Dothraki all committing themselves as her blood riders seems significant in itself, given their traditional role with the Khals, so it's not like nothing new happened.. What didn't ring true was their ready agreement to cross the sea, which took forever with convincing Drogo's tribe. If anyone already mentioned that stuff, sorry to repeat it.