[Tiste Simeon]

QuickTidal, on 26 May 2025 - 03:47 PM, said:

Tiste Simeon, on 26 May 2025 - 02:49 PM, said:

Bezos is a huge Tolkien fan so I'm guessing that has something to do with it.

I saw a theory that Bezos is actually the one that writes the scripts for RoP which makes a fair amount of sense actually!

I feel like he's a huge Gollum fan, since they share visual characteristics.

Haha he probably sees himself more like Smaug.

[the broken]

Tiste Simeon, on 26 May 2025 - 02:49 PM, said:

Bezos is a huge Tolkien fan so I'm guessing that has something to do with it.

I saw a theory that Bezos is actually the one that writes the scripts for RoP which makes a fair amount of sense actually!

Is he really a big fan, or did he tactically discover this for the sake of marketing?

[QuickTidal]

Showrunner Rafe Judkins on the cancellation:

Quote

"I've been asked the same question many times the last week — why was The Wheel of Time cancelled? And the truth is, I don't know. I wish I could say something clear and tidy that explains to all those who love it why it's coming to an end, but sadly, I can't.

"What I can say is that the actors and crew on our show are the most talented and wonderful group of people I've ever had the pleasure to work with. And we've all been incredibly lucky to make something that not only was beloved by fans (and even critics! ha!), but was also watched by huge numbers of people all over the world, appearing in the Nielsen Top 10 for nearly 20 weeks, a feat very few shows have been able to match in the last decade

"One of my core goals in making this show, even from the earliest crafting of the pitch, has been to tell the whole story. Because the Wheel of Time books do what television has always done best – get better as they go. And as our actors and team came on board, they too could see the potential if we were allowed to finish this incredible story. We made many sacrifices, both personal and creative, along the way to get to that ending, so coming up short feels like a devastating blow for all of us.

"Much has been written about this larger trend in TV toward fewer seasons with less episodes and finding quicker ways to acquire additional streaming subscribers. But I genuinely believe that this goes against the fundamental strength of television — long-form storytelling. It is an art form, much like epic fantasy, which at its very best, gives people a place to go and spend time with the characters that they love year after year after year. And I believe there are executives, studios, and networks who know that. I believe that we will find our way through this current iteration of the industry and back to what we do best – bringing great characters into people's living rooms and lives every week.

"Will The Wheel of Time get to do that with another network and finish the story? Sadly, it's not something that happens often. But it does happen. In fact, one of the reasons we first chose Amazon as a home for the show was because they were in the midst of picking up The Expanse after SYFY cancelled it. So, who knows, perhaps The Wheel of Time show will do what the books have always managed to do since day one – defy the traditional definitions of 'beginnings' and 'ends'. I certainly hope it does – because this book series and these fans deserve to see the story finished."

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 06 June 2025 - 04:15 PM

[Cause]

I am surprised because if it survived not being cancelled in season 1 its odd to get the axe after season 3 which was miles better.

I am disappointed. I wasn't the biggest fan but it still had moments I enjoyed and season 4 seemed like it would have continued the trend of improvements.

Rafe made some truly bizzare decisions but I suspect the majority of watchers had never read the books and never cared.

[the broken]

Cause, on 06 June 2025 - 04:48 PM, said:

I am surprised because if it survived not being cancelled in season 1 its odd to get the axe after season 3 which was miles better.

I am disappointed. I wasn't the biggest fan but it still had moments I enjoyed and season 4 seemed like it would have continued the trend of improvements.

Rafe made some truly bizzare decisions but I suspect the majority of watchers had never read the books and never cared.

Those decisions might have been mandates from higher up, you never know.

[Chance]

the broken, on 09 June 2025 - 01:14 AM, said:

Cause, on 06 June 2025 - 04:48 PM, said:

I am surprised because if it survived not being cancelled in season 1 its odd to get the axe after season 3 which was miles better.

I am disappointed. I wasn't the biggest fan but it still had moments I enjoyed and season 4 seemed like it would have continued the trend of improvements.

Rafe made some truly bizzare decisions but I suspect the majority of watchers had never read the books and never cared.

Those decisions might have been mandates from higher up, you never know.

Pretty sure Rafe and his team did pretty much what they wanted to do and deserve all the blame, just look for what Brandon Sanderson described being involved in the first season was like its up on youtube.

[Tsundoku]

Chance, on 09 June 2025 - 02:27 AM, said:

the broken, on 09 June 2025 - 01:14 AM, said:

Cause, on 06 June 2025 - 04:48 PM, said:

I am surprised because if it survived not being cancelled in season 1 its odd to get the axe after season 3 which was miles better.

I am disappointed. I wasn't the biggest fan but it still had moments I enjoyed and season 4 seemed like it would have continued the trend of improvements.

Rafe made some truly bizzare decisions but I suspect the majority of watchers had never read the books and never cared.

Those decisions might have been mandates from higher up, you never know.

Pretty sure Rafe and his team did pretty much what they wanted to do and deserve all the blame, just look for what Brandon Sanderson described being involved in the first season was like its up on youtube.

Linky?

Dragonmount has a petition and gofundme etc going:

https://dragonmount....ellation-r1397/

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Chance, on 09 June 2025 - 02:27 AM, said:

the broken, on 09 June 2025 - 01:14 AM, said:

Cause, on 06 June 2025 - 04:48 PM, said:

I am surprised because if it survived not being cancelled in season 1 its odd to get the axe after season 3 which was miles better.

I am disappointed. I wasn't the biggest fan but it still had moments I enjoyed and season 4 seemed like it would have continued the trend of improvements.

Rafe made some truly bizzare decisions but I suspect the majority of watchers had never read the books and never cared.

Those decisions might have been mandates from higher up, you never know.

Pretty sure Rafe and his team did pretty much what they wanted to do and deserve all the blame, just look for what Brandon Sanderson described being involved in the first season was like its up on youtube.

Sanderson back-tracked a bit on his position on Rafe after there was a fairly bad reaction to the watch-along he was involved with for the season 2 finale, and said Rafe went back to the writer's room batting for plenty of Sanderson's points and that he didn't mean to cast him as "the villain of the piece" with what he said.

As such - and having watched that watch-along and feeling at the time that Sanderson came over as somewhere between a petulant child and an unbearably smug adult - I'm never sure quite how much weight to put behind his complaining. I'm sure he had some salient points - there were some absolutely wild decisions made - but that watch-along being the first time I really heard Sanderson speak on anything left a pretty sour taste in my mouth about him.

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 09 June 2025 - 07:03 AM

[QuickTidal]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 09 June 2025 - 07:01 AM, said:

Chance, on 09 June 2025 - 02:27 AM, said:

the broken, on 09 June 2025 - 01:14 AM, said:

Cause, on 06 June 2025 - 04:48 PM, said:

I am surprised because if it survived not being cancelled in season 1 its odd to get the axe after season 3 which was miles better.

I am disappointed. I wasn't the biggest fan but it still had moments I enjoyed and season 4 seemed like it would have continued the trend of improvements.

Rafe made some truly bizzare decisions but I suspect the majority of watchers had never read the books and never cared.

Those decisions might have been mandates from higher up, you never know.

Pretty sure Rafe and his team did pretty much what they wanted to do and deserve all the blame, just look for what Brandon Sanderson described being involved in the first season was like its up on youtube.

As such - and having watched that watch-along and feeling at the time that Sanderson came over as somewhere between a petulant child and an unbearably smug adult - I'm never sure quite how much weight to put behind his complaining. I'm sure he had some salient points - there were some absolutely wild decisions made - but that watch-along being the first time I really heard Sanderson speak on anything left a pretty sour taste in my mouth about him.

This. In those segments he comes off really badly IMO and it feels like a toxic Star Wars fan ripping on "fire in space" level stuff.


There's a reason that Sanderson's work has not yet been adapted, even though it's been optioned plenty of times since his work took off in the mid-aughts....It's because he seems to misunderstand adaptation and thinks his works can be translated largely as they are without the need for such adaptation. Guaranteed that he's had every contract contain a clause where he gets to walk if it's not to his liking...which in a normal world would mean he would find the common ground between book and TV/movie...but the fact that it's never even made it past the script stage is telling. If he had the clout to make the project himself, it would likely fail becuase he would fill it with shit he would claim was INTEGRAL to the story, but would bore audiences. He needs to get over that misunderstanding of those mediums differences or his work will never be adapted.


Sidebar: This is why GOT was so successful, GRRM had some executive power and whatnot as the author of the books, but as a person who actually cut his teeth writing scripts for TV (most notably the 80's/90's Beauty & The Beast with Ron Perlaman & Linda Hamilton) he VERY much understood adaptation would require cuts, and edits, and changes to the story he wrote and accepted that. It also why he was so combative about HOTD S2, because as a former TV writer he knew that some of the choices they made there were poor.

[Chance]

QuickTidal, on 09 June 2025 - 11:53 AM, said:

This. In those segments he comes off really badly IMO and it feels like a toxic Star Wars fan ripping on "fire in space" level stuff.

I was alluding to his early criticism of season 1 (not heard of the watch alongs) which I found spot on and I'm usually a fairly harsh Sanderson critic. But what side you come down on in that argument is probably up to if you enjoyed tv-WoT.

QuickTidal, on 09 June 2025 - 11:53 AM, said:

There's a reason that Sanderson's work has not yet been adapted, even though it's been optioned plenty of times since his work took off in the mid-aughts....It's because he seems to misunderstand adaptation and thinks his works can be translated largely as they are without the need for such adaptation. Guaranteed that he's had every contract contain a clause where he gets to walk if it's not to his liking...which in a normal world would mean he would find the common ground between book and TV/movie...but the fact that it's never even made it past the script stage is telling. If he had the clout to make the project himself, it would likely fail becuase he would fill it with shit he would claim was INTEGRAL to the story, but would bore audiences. He needs to get over that misunderstanding of those mediums differences or his work will never be adapted.

I can certainly agree to that to some part, but there are some fairly faithful adaptations out there that where rather successful like LotR or Harry Potter. Now I think TV is a bit different but there are still the first few seasons of GoT which while not 1 to 1 conversions of the book are very recognizable to readers.

This post has been edited by Chance: 09 June 2025 - 02:00 PM

[QuickTidal]

Chance, on 09 June 2025 - 01:58 PM, said:

I was alluding to his early criticism of season 1 (not heard of the watch alongs) which I found spot on and I'm usually a fairly harsh Sanderson critic. But what side you come down on in that argument is probably up to if you enjoyed tv-WoT.

For sure, but I'm am incredibly lax on what I'll permit in adaptation due to my friends in the industry who frequently explained to me why certain decisions were made (mostly Trek, which shoots in Toronto). Like I found ways to enjoy Shannara even though it very much made DRASTIC changes to the source material.

Chance, on 09 June 2025 - 01:58 PM, said:

I can certainly agree to that to some part, but there are some fairly faithful adaptations out there that where rather successful like LotR or Harry Potter. Now I think TV is a bit different but there are still the first few seasons of GoT which while not 1 to 1 conversions of the book are very recognizable to readers.

Eh, I feel like you've proven my point actually. Peter Jackson (and Philippa Boyens & Fran Walsh) faced a tonne of ire for their adaptation to the LOTR source material by purists. The main OneRing.net forums still to this day have scads of people who call you NARF (Not a Real Fan) if you like the PJ movies. I think the reason it works or mass audiences and was the success it was would be DUE to the adaptation choices he made. You can't shoot LOTR as it reads on the page, it would be overlong, boring, and not have compelled audiences as it did.

Harry Potter is an even better example of adaptation being an important art. The first two films, at the behest of original director Chris Columbus, were AS close to the source material as possible, and as a result are the weakest of the series film-wise...but once Cuaron, Newell, and especially Yates came on board, Steve Kloves writing of them got FAR better, more interesting, and were much more adapted in the traditional sense. As a result of stepping away from the slavish adherence to the source material in Columbus' entries, the series got INIFINITELY better. Like I can re-weatch CHAMBER...it's fine...but I can't rewatch the first one...in most re-watches I start at 3 and go forward because they are FAR better films, and that's largely on the back of them being adapted well for the medium. Moreover, if you watch the first two FANTASTIC BEASTS films you run into the same problem as Sanderson...Rowling wrote the screenplay for both, and her amateurishness in that medium is VERY present in both films as they adhere to whatever her book-author mind thinks it relevant...this is why WB forced Steve Kloves on her for the third film in the writing process, and the 3rd film is BY FAR the best of the bunch film-wise.

[the broken]

Doing the live watch was a pretty bad idea, because all his reactions were going to be overanalysed, especially the negative ones, because that's how the internet works.


I'm not prepared to assume Brandon is solely responsible. Adaptation is a lot more complicated than that, and usually the audience isn't privy to most of the issues behind the scenes.


Adaptation does require changes, but that doesn't automatically mean every change is good, it has to be taken on its own merits. Simple pragmatic changes are relatively uncontroversial, like cutting Baerlon and Caemlyn.



I have a good amount of sympathy for Season 1, because Covid and losing a lead actor caused problems. Season 2 and 3, while improving, made awkward decisions that butterfly effected and slowly escalated. Moiraine and Lan's Season 2 plot was bafflingly awful with the 'make person I think is suicidal as miserable as possible' Faile having romantic scenes with Perrin in the forge hits different when you remember he killed his wife in that forge. Min is working for Leandrin and Ishamael in Season 2, but somehow this causes no issue in getting a job working for Siuan in Season 3.


The further on they got in the show, the more the butterfly effect scuppered things. It's a shame because the actors and production were all pretty talented.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

the broken, on 09 June 2025 - 04:03 PM, said:

Moiraine and Lan's Season 2 plot was bafflingly awful with the 'make person I think is suicidal as miserable as possible' Faile having romantic scenes with Perrin in the forge hits different when you remember he killed his wife in that forge. Min is working for Leandrin and Ishamael in Season 2, but somehow this causes no issue in getting a job working for Siuan in Season 3.

Lan and Moiraine S2 and Min's involvement with everyone were the worst offenders I was thinking of with my "wild decisions" comment. Series 3 felt like a hard course correct, but I don't understand the thinking with those decisions in the first place.

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 10 June 2025 - 12:32 PM

[QuickTidal]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 10 June 2025 - 12:31 PM, said:

the broken, on 09 June 2025 - 04:03 PM, said:

Moiraine and Lan's Season 2 plot was bafflingly awful with the 'make person I think is suicidal as miserable as possible' Faile having romantic scenes with Perrin in the forge hits different when you remember he killed his wife in that forge. Min is working for Leandrin and Ishamael in Season 2, but somehow this causes no issue in getting a job working for Siuan in Season 3.

Lan and Moiraine S2 and Min's involvement with everyone were the worst offenders I was thinking of with my "wild decisions" comment. Series 3 felt like a hard course correct, but I don't understand the thinking with those decisions in the first place.

I think Lan and Moraine thing was done as a part of the natural fact that Rosmund Pike is the MAIN star of the show, so they wanted more storylines with her than what she has in the books at that point. So they contrived a way (losing her powers) to keep her front and centre with conflict (being misguidedly awful to each other) to keep here there and keep it interesting without stepping on the main storyline with the youths. As for Min, I dunno if anyone else feels this was but Min in the books is one of the most one-dimensional characters in the whole thing, existing ONLY to crush on Rand and tell the future...taking her and giving her layers and having her briefly work with the baddies, and end up with a stronger bond with Mat instead feels like a really SOLID change to the narrative. They were never going to do Rand's WHOLE harem, so may as well change existing harem members into more rounded characters. TV show Min is about 100 times more interesting than Book Min.


YMMV though.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

I definitely liked show Min more than her book counterpart (show needs a lot more credit than it gets for the improvement to Min and ESPECIALLY Faile), and I liked pairing her with Mat rather than Rand. I did like the scene where she told Mat why she briefly worked with Ishamael - it wasn't terrible, but I think I'd have preferred a different way to give her more depth.

As you say though - it'd be no fun if there weren't differing interpretations to discuss

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 10 June 2025 - 01:23 PM

[QuickTidal]

for sure!

[Tiste Simeon]

QuickTidal, on 10 June 2025 - 01:53 PM, said:

for sure!

Yeah my wife really liked Faile and was surprised when I had such a visceral (initial) reaction to her haha but she was definitely better.

I don't remember Min really at all except occasionally being a bit catty with Egwene and Elayne about who fancied Rand more. So yeah, 1 dimensional is right!

[the broken]

Taking the thinner characters and expanding them is an easy win, but they also simplify the well drawn characters.

Best move for Moiraine Season 2 is probably a research binge, because she folllowed the prophecy at the Eye and it was completely wrong. If she goes on to follow other prophecies, we need to kno


Faile was an easy fix, just take out the horrible Ways journey and you're done until Berelain turns up.

I don't think Min makes sense. Mat is just kind of annoyed that she sold him out to the Shadow when he should be worrying 'hang on, are you working for Liandrin again?' She also sent that random Taraboner to his death by Black Ajah for no apparent reason.

[Cause]

I mean we probably all have different opinions on things which is fine, some debatable. For instance I’d argue you could drop Berelain entirely and that helps both Perrin and Faile a lot. Some people may disagree with me Saving Faile was probably a super obvious and easy thing to do. Anyone but book Faile would be better. It’s hard to imagine the possibility of making her worse.

Season 2 Adaptions for the most part failed:

Season 2 was a mess it kept some major story beats from book 2 but seemed to not understand why they were important. Erased important details and made some horrendous choices.

Did show watchers even know what the horn of valere was or why it’s so important before the finale? Ingtar just had it in the last episode too (from lanfear?) but it’s so sudden and jarring (not enough time perhaps) that I remember going back to see if I missed it. The season2/book 2 is called the hunt for the horn!!! The horn couldn’t have been less important.

This is also where Rand learns the sword (relationship with lan which is a fan favorite and integral to his character), learns leadership (the hunt with ingtar, the time with Selene and Hurin, the battle in flame) and learns the importance of being the dragon reborn (portal stones). None of this is present. If I hadn’t read the books I’d have been wondering why this Rand guy even matters. Bringing Logan up early should have been an improvement but wasn’t. It just wasted plot rather than advanced it. Rand still couldn’t channel a candle flame by the end of the season so Logan didn’t advance that route despite that being the goal.

Min working with the forsaken was unforgivable. One of the changes that I think was entertaining and more realistic was having more lanfear, having her and Rand actually have a sexual and even romantic relationship raised the stakes. However once the masked dropped… These people are fantasy hitler. We can make some allowances for the fact that they are legends and not real people to the living inhabitants of Randland. at the same time people accept as fact that the dark one exists. Dark friends exist. They are evil. They are friends with the dragon reborn. No writing can excuse morraine’s, mins and even rands continued association with sexy female magic hitler.

More Rosalind pike and more Moraine is not a bad thing. Not this plot though. What the hell were we supposed to take away from the sisters and their warden telling Lan we know your suicidal too but toughen up man and think of morraine and take her dinner. When so many vital details are erased to add this unnecessary drama…

I will give them a pass on anything to do with Mat because of whatever the actor drama was. The new mat as an actor is better anyway and overtime would even have paid off. Although wtf is that tea? I thought that was a strange way to give Matt his other memories but that wasn’t even the point of that sequence.

Egwene as a damane was strong. Her rescuing herself is my only complaint as it alters things significantly but the storytelling was solid.

Moraine broke the 3 oaths in the final episode.

Season 3 adaptions mostly worked:

Jumping to book four and passing the stone of tear (book 3) for now worked. Pick up Calandor later. Honestly for such an important book mcguffin I’d even say you could make an adaption that drops it entirely. Hell it disappears significantly after book for 90% of the next books.

Seeing the past lives through the pillars, seeing the rapid fire possible futures from the rings. This is where the book becoming a show enhanced rather than reduced the adaption. Great stuff.

I have to mention, Nynaeve and Elayne going on the deck and discovering windfinders Can channel and the sea people just responding this is why we make eas sedai stay below decks was the laziest writing imaginable. A 1000 year old secret revealed because nynaeve was sea sick. It also seemed to establish that women can’t sense channeling remotely long distance which is kind of important for some major plot point reasons.

Mat posing for a portrait as the honrblower was so monumentally stupid I assumed I misunderstood that scene until Siuan told him it was monumentally stupid.