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The Marvel Cinematic Universe Thread Awww yissssss!

#821 User is offline   Malankazooie 

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Posted 09 November 2021 - 09:41 PM

Dang....

Spoiler

I guess a take away is that the possibilities are opening up... maybe?
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#822 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 10 November 2021 - 02:12 AM

View PostAptorian, on 09 October 2021 - 02:35 PM, said:

Okay, okay, hear me out, what if in the next Black Panther movie, they cast Tom Cruise as a down on his luck, alcoholic American mercenary, that the Wakandans hire to help them fight the evil white imperialist SHIELD. Because even though they're super advanced the Wakandan generals apparently still thinks it's smart to give their elite commandos spears to fight with.

Cruise of course befriends the princess who teaches him that you can't fight every fight with a gun and he shows her that not all American white imperialists are savages. In fact USA is the best country in the world!

The movie ends with Cruise sacrificing himself so that the Wakandans can go on and we'll call the film THE LAST PANTHER.


Relatedly apparently the actress who plays Shuri is a hard core anti-vaxxer and has been a nightmare on the set.
This so messes with her in that role in my head.
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#823 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 10 November 2021 - 01:37 PM

Quote

Okay, okay, hear me out, what if in the next Black Panther movie, they cast Tom Cruise as a down on his luck, alcoholic American mercenary, that the Wakandans hire to help them fight the evil white imperialist SHIELD. Because even though they're super advanced the Wakandan generals apparently still thinks it's smart to give their elite commandos spears to fight with.

Cruise of course befriends the princess who teaches him that you can't fight every fight with a gun and he shows her that not all American white imperialists are savages. In fact USA is the best country in the world!

The movie ends with Cruise sacrificing himself so that the Wakandans can go on and we'll call the film THE LAST PANTHER.


You joke, but THE LAST SAMURAI is pretty much historically accurate....it's just the guy was French not American. But the rest of it is accurate with him serving the remains of the Tokugawa Shogunate after being hired to help the Meiji Dynasty with artillery. The timeline is a bit fuddled with the film depicting the Satsuma Rebellion in 1877, while Brunet actually helped Samurai against the Meiji a decade earlier in 1866. And Brunet didn't die in the act.

View PostAbyss, on 10 November 2021 - 02:12 AM, said:

Relatedly apparently the actress who plays Shuri is a hard core anti-vaxxer and has been a nightmare on the set.
This so messes with her in that role in my head.


And they delayed BP now due to Letitia having an on-set injury....

Now I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but this came VERY soon after the most recent anti-vaxx report from set about her....and I might put GOOD money down on the retooling of the movie to include her character LESS as a result and using this injury story for rewrites.
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#824 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 10 November 2021 - 02:48 PM

View PostQuickTidal, on 10 November 2021 - 01:37 PM, said:

Quote

Okay, okay, hear me out, what if in the next Black Panther movie, they cast Tom Cruise as a down on his luck, alcoholic American mercenary, that the Wakandans hire to help them fight the evil white imperialist SHIELD. Because even though they're super advanced the Wakandan generals apparently still thinks it's smart to give their elite commandos spears to fight with.

Cruise of course befriends the princess who teaches him that you can't fight every fight with a gun and he shows her that not all American white imperialists are savages. In fact USA is the best country in the world!

The movie ends with Cruise sacrificing himself so that the Wakandans can go on and we'll call the film THE LAST PANTHER.


You joke, but THE LAST SAMURAI is pretty much historically accurate....it's just the guy was French not American. But the rest of it is accurate with him serving the remains of the Tokugawa Shogunate after being hired to help the Meiji Dynasty with artillery. The timeline is a bit fuddled with the film depicting the Satsuma Rebellion in 1877, while Brunet actually helped Samurai against the Meiji a decade earlier in 1866. And Brunet didn't die in the act.


Just 'cause there was one French guy (really, there were hundreds (thousands?) of foreign advisors brought into Japan during the Meiji Restoration -- o-yatoi gaikokujin -- and on the military side it seems Prussians were especially wanted) who is vaguely similar to the role of the American character in very broad strokes does not make the movie historically accurate. Hardly any samurai during the Meiji Restoration period were still warriors of any sort and the whole zen/bushido-warrior thing is a major romantization of the title. Guns were prominent in Japanese warfare for hundreds of years before the Meiji Restoration so Tom Cruise coming in to teach them how to shoot and work on the front lines is ludicrous - the foreign "military advisors" would have been back at the military academy lecturing the generals about auftragstaktik tactics and the best logistics practices for moving a hundred thousand soldiers by train, etc. Likewise, the Satsuma rebels obviously had plenty of guns and knew how to use them, samurai included, none of this "we hold to the old ways so we will fight only with sword!" bullcrap. The Satsuma Rebellion was waaaaaay bigger than how it is (sort of) depicted in the film, too.

Also Saigo Takamori (the basis for Ken Watanabe's character) hated the foreigners and wanted to eliminate western influence in Japan (hence his role in the Boshin War) so the whole premise of him bringing Tom Cruise back to live with is pretty suspect.

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#825 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 10 November 2021 - 03:07 PM

I'm really not going to get into this with you as it would be long and involved and I have no interest in arguing about it, but for reference my info comes from a book I read about the Meiji Restoration a few years back while studying my own family history in the country (which goes back to the Battle of Sekigahara as far as we can tell).

The bottom line for me is that a foreigner came to Japan to initially help with artillery, stayed after the Shogunate fell, and eventually helped the older guard (both with Republic of Ezo and the Boshin War; whether they were still considered samurai or not) who were rejecting the changes.

Those broad strokes are the same for me. Shrug. Sure there's tonnes of poetic license in the film, but the base levels of the attitudes about who was rejecting what after the fall of the Shogun...are the same. To me.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 10 November 2021 - 03:20 PM

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#826 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 10 November 2021 - 03:21 PM

View PostD, on 10 November 2021 - 02:48 PM, said:

View PostQuickTidal, on 10 November 2021 - 01:37 PM, said:

Quote

Okay, okay, hear me out, what if in the next Black Panther movie, they cast Tom Cruise as a down on his luck, alcoholic American mercenary, that the Wakandans hire to help them fight the evil white imperialist SHIELD. Because even though they're super advanced the Wakandan generals apparently still thinks it's smart to give their elite commandos spears to fight with.

Cruise of course befriends the princess who teaches him that you can't fight every fight with a gun and he shows her that not all American white imperialists are savages. In fact USA is the best country in the world!

The movie ends with Cruise sacrificing himself so that the Wakandans can go on and we'll call the film THE LAST PANTHER.


You joke, but THE LAST SAMURAI is pretty much historically accurate....it's just the guy was French not American. But the rest of it is accurate with him serving the remains of the Tokugawa Shogunate after being hired to help the Meiji Dynasty with artillery. The timeline is a bit fuddled with the film depicting the Satsuma Rebellion in 1877, while Brunet actually helped Samurai against the Meiji a decade earlier in 1866. And Brunet didn't die in the act.


Just 'cause there was one French guy (really, there were hundreds (thousands?) of foreign advisors brought into Japan during the Meiji Restoration -- o-yatoi gaikokujin -- and on the military side it seems Prussians were especially wanted) who is vaguely similar to the role of the American character in very broad strokes does not make the movie historically accurate. Hardly any samurai during the Meiji Restoration period were still warriors of any sort and the whole zen/bushido-warrior thing is a major romantization of the title. Guns were prominent in Japanese warfare for hundreds of years before the Meiji Restoration so Tom Cruise coming in to teach them how to shoot and work on the front lines is ludicrous - the foreign "military advisors" would have been back at the military academy lecturing the generals about auftragstaktik tactics and the best logistics practices for moving a hundred thousand soldiers by train, etc. Likewise, the Satsuma rebels obviously had plenty of guns and knew how to use them, samurai included, none of this "we hold to the old ways so we will fight only with sword!" bullcrap. The Satsuma Rebellion was waaaaaay bigger than how it is (sort of) depicted in the film, too.

Also Saigo Takamori (the basis for Ken Watanabe's character) hated the foreigners and wanted to eliminate western influence in Japan (hence his role in the Boshin War) so the whole premise of him bringing Tom Cruise back to live with is pretty suspect.



View PostQuickTidal, on 10 November 2021 - 03:07 PM, said:

I'm really not going to get into this with you as it would be long and involved and I have no interest in arguing about it, but for reference my info comes from a book I read about the Meiji Restoration a few years back while studying my own family history in the country (which goes back to the Battle of Sekigahara as far as we can tell).

The bottom line for me is that a foreigner came to Japan to help with artillery teaching, stayed after the fall of the Shogun, and eventually helped the older guard (whether they were still considered samurai or not) who were trying to reject the modernization with the older feudal mentality.

Those broad strokes are the same for me. Sure there's tonnes of poetic license in the film, but the base levels of the attitudes about who was rejecting what after the fall of the Shogun...are the same. To me.


You both have valid points but from a 'historically accurate' context one has to accept all the subjective retellings and recordings that come into play and also that if any of this were remotely true there would have been ninja all over the place just killing dudes because those guys were awesome.
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#827 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 10 November 2021 - 03:28 PM

I think for me it's just that the broad ideas in The Last Samurai resonate from Brunet's actual life, up to and including him being rewarded for his dedication to Japan by the Japanese admiral he helped (Enomoto Takeaki) so long before whose loyalty to the Tokugawa was above reproach.

But again, I don't want to derail the thread arguing about it. Drek and I clearly have different views about it.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 10 November 2021 - 03:30 PM

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#828 User is offline   Gorefest 

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Posted 10 November 2021 - 03:55 PM

It's sorta like Avatar, innit?
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#829 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 10 November 2021 - 04:13 PM

View PostGorefest, on 10 November 2021 - 03:55 PM, said:

It's sorta like Avatar, innit?


Yes, just replace the four-armed blue aliens with Keanu Reeves.
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#830 User is offline   Slow Ben 

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Posted 10 November 2021 - 04:26 PM

I would replace almost anything with Keanu Reeves.
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#831 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 10 November 2021 - 04:27 PM

View PostQuickTidal, on 10 November 2021 - 03:28 PM, said:

I think for me it's just that the broad ideas in The Last Samurai resonate from Brunet's actual life, up to and including him being rewarded for his dedication to Japan by the Japanese admiral he helped (Enomoto Takeaki) so long before whose loyalty to the Tokugawa was above reproach.

But again, I don't want to derail the thread arguing about it. Drek and I clearly have different views about it.


Huh? How does Enomoto fit into it?

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#832 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 10 November 2021 - 04:56 PM

View PostD, on 10 November 2021 - 04:27 PM, said:

View PostQuickTidal, on 10 November 2021 - 03:28 PM, said:

I think for me it's just that the broad ideas in The Last Samurai resonate from Brunet's actual life, up to and including him being rewarded for his dedication to Japan by the Japanese admiral he helped (Enomoto Takeaki) so long before whose loyalty to the Tokugawa was above reproach.

But again, I don't want to derail the thread arguing about it. Drek and I clearly have different views about it.


Huh? How does Enomoto fit into it?


He was the Tokugawa Samurai who Brunet was allies with in the Boshin War, and later with the Republic of Ezo on Hokaiddo and the battle of Hadokate (where Brunet also went after quasi-deserting his orders from the French Embassy). For all intents and purposes Enomoto is the Saigo stand-in for Brunet's story in my comparison to Last Samurai. He held the Tokugawa Navy in the Bakumatsu period, as a samurai and fought against the Meiji govt during that whole period. He eventually was defeated and joined the Meiji govt after the fact and helped found their modern navy.

EDIT: For what it's worth (and in case you're curious) the book I read was TO STAND WITH THE NATIONS OF THE WORLD, written by a scholar named Mark Ravina who coincidentally also wrote a book about Sagio's life funnily enough.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 10 November 2021 - 04:59 PM

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#833 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 10 November 2021 - 05:06 PM

View PostQuickTidal, on 10 November 2021 - 04:56 PM, said:

View PostD, on 10 November 2021 - 04:27 PM, said:

View PostQuickTidal, on 10 November 2021 - 03:28 PM, said:

I think for me it's just that the broad ideas in The Last Samurai resonate from Brunet's actual life, up to and including him being rewarded for his dedication to Japan by the Japanese admiral he helped (Enomoto Takeaki) so long before whose loyalty to the Tokugawa was above reproach.

But again, I don't want to derail the thread arguing about it. Drek and I clearly have different views about it.


Huh? How does Enomoto fit into it?


He was the Tokugawa Samurai who Brunet was allies with in the Boshin War, and later with the Republic of Ezo on Hokaiddo and the battle of Hadokate (where Brunet also went after quasi-deserting his orders from the French Embassy). For all intents and purposes Enomoto is the Saigo stand-in for Brunet's story in my comparison to Last Samurai. He held the Tokugawa Navy in the Bakumatsu period, as a samurai and fought against the Meiji govt during that whole period. He eventually was defeated and joined the Meiji govt after the fact and helped found their modern navy.


I don't understand the connection. In the movie, Katsumoto (Ken Watanabe's character) is all about representing the supposed old ways and opposing westernization, which Tom Cruise eventually comes around to agreeing with. But Enomoto was a hardcore enthusiast for the Tokugawa westernization efforts - he went and lived in the Netherlands for years to study their naval practices, learned to speak English and Dutch, and fought against the Meiji restorationists. If Enomoto were represented by anyone in the movie, he wouldn't be Katsumoto, he'd be the "westernized" soldiers of the Imperial army.

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#834 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 10 November 2021 - 05:15 PM

Anyways, I'm happy to derail the thread but if you don't want to we can leave it at that. I certainly agree that "around that time there were foreign dudes in Japan, and also people in Japan sometimes fought each other" is quote-unquote "historically accurate", in the same way that "around that time there were some pirates in the Caribbean and they did indeed sail boats of some sort" makes Pirates of the Caribbean a historically accurate movie, and we can agree to disagree on the rest.

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#835 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 10 November 2021 - 05:37 PM

Look, Brunet was the historical basis for Nathan Algren, and his relationship with Enomoto is the basis for Algren and Saigo...

I'm not sure how else to put it to you.

Enamoto's position as someone embracing westernization doesn't somehow remove his devotion to the Tokugawa family and his desire to see them restored as Shogun rulers (on Hokaiddo).

Like I get what you're saying, but to me the base ingredients are pretty much there:

Foreign guy comes to teach artillery tactics, stays past his mandate and military orders out of loyalty to a Japanese Samurai and helps that samurai to try to put his daimyo/their family back on the 'throne'.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 10 November 2021 - 05:37 PM

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#836 User is offline   Malankazooie 

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Posted 10 November 2021 - 05:56 PM

I gotta say, watching the latest trailer for Hawkeye, I'm looking forward to it. It looks like a lot of fun.
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Posted 10 November 2021 - 06:13 PM

View PostQuickTidal, on 10 November 2021 - 05:37 PM, said:

Look, Brunet was the historical basis for Nathan Algren, and his relationship with Enomoto is the basis for Algren and Saigo...

I'm not sure how else to put it to you.


"I'm not sure how else to put it to you" - try explaining why you think this is so obvious and factual?

I don't understand at all why you think the Algren-Saigo relationship could be based on Brunet-Enomoto's relationship - what similarities are there? Saigo was not a pro-westernization naval officer fleeing a successful rebellion, Algren was not attached to an elite regiment picked up by Saigo's fleeing ships. Enomoto didn't have some legacy of the old ways to impart to Brunet or some initial view of Brunet as a terrible influence on his people, and Brunet wasn't some prisoner who had to slowly work to earn Enomoto's trust or interest in adopting Enomoto's customs.

Like sure, Burnet was a foreign military advisor in Japan and Enomoto was, uh, Japanese? But if that's the sole basis for it, you could just as easily hop onto Wikipedia and pull the names of any other two such people who had a friendship. Like, why isn't the Algren-Saigo "friendship" based on Jakob Meckel and Kawakami Soroku?

View PostQuickTidal, on 10 November 2021 - 05:37 PM, said:

Enamoto's position as someone embracing westernization doesn't somehow remove his devotion to the Tokugawa family and his desire to see them restored as Shogun rulers (on Hokaiddo).


The plot of the last samurai movie is not about overthrowing the Emperor.

View PostQuickTidal, on 10 November 2021 - 05:37 PM, said:

Foreign guy comes to teach artillery tactics,


The real foreign advisors that went to Japan would have taught high-level tactics to generals and whatnot, but in the movie Algren isn't there to teach artillery tactics, he's there to train basic riflemen because the government's new western-esque army is all conscripted peasants who have never seen a gun before and Japan supposedly has no one who can do that because they've never used guns before. Algren's job is to teach these bottom-rank infantry how to shoot and lead them into battle himself, and he is bossed around by the merchant guy who sends their regiment/platoon/whatever into battle before the peasant-conscripts have been fully trained.

(The merchant guy later controls the Emperor and is the main villain of the story, of course, because "greedy merchants = new foreign bad thing, samurai = old zen respectful tradition thing". In actual history, the Meiji reformer person/people the merchant guy is based on, like Okubo Toshimichi, were also samurai, but that wouldn't jive with the romanticization of the title in the movie.)

View PostQuickTidal, on 10 November 2021 - 05:37 PM, said:

stays past his mandate and military orders out of loyalty to a Japanese Samurai and helps that samurai to try to put his daimyo/their family back on the 'throne'.


There's no plot of "restoring rightful rule" in the movie. Saigo recognizes/agrees with the Emperor's status, he just doesn't like the changes being made to the laws of the country. The fruition of his rebellion in the movie isn't usurping the throne or regaining some status, it's convincing the Emperor to be more mindful of the samurai traditions (as represented by the Emperor cancelling a foreign trade deal he was previously preparing to enact).

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#838 User is offline   Tiste Simeon 

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Posted 10 November 2021 - 06:15 PM

I find the whole argument around historical accuracy in movies to be fascinating. I mean, even when they're depicting more recent and we'll sourced events there will be people lining up to disagree. When it's further back you've got no chance! Also, we have the political or background leanings of the director, the people financing it, poetic license, the idea that while they're telling a story they still need to hopefully make a profit from it... The list of things that may mar claims of accuracy goes on!

The only movie that is clearly 100% historically accurate is 300. ;)
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#839 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 10 November 2021 - 06:45 PM

View PostTiste Simeon, on 10 November 2021 - 06:15 PM, said:

I find the whole argument around historical accuracy in movies to be fascinating. I mean, even when they're depicting more recent and we'll sourced events there will be people lining up to disagree. When it's further back you've got no chance! Also, we have the political or background leanings of the director, the people financing it, poetic license, the idea that while they're telling a story they still need to hopefully make a profit from it... The list of things that may mar claims of accuracy goes on!

The only movie that is clearly 100% historically accurate is 300. ;)


Yeah, there's lots of different ways to interpret the same person's story, so it's hard to ever truly depict a real person's story in a way that seems 100% "accurate" from all possible viewpoints. And lots of historical people can have like 12 different books that all say they had different personalities - those sorts of things are very open to interpretation.

But there's tons of movies that make up their own fictional story set within a historical setting, and I'd say in those cases there's plenty of movies that really make an effort to accurately depict the setting and historical context of their story, even if the story itself is fictional. Like Schindler's List didn't follow the real events at the Schindler factory with perfect accuracy and its characterization probably isn't completely true-to-life either, but the surrounding context of the holocaust and WW2 going on around the modified personal storylines is still authentic. Or Master & Commander being a fictional story of a fictional crew, but all the historical and nautical details are still very historically accurate.

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#840 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 10 November 2021 - 06:52 PM

View PostD, on 10 November 2021 - 06:13 PM, said:

View PostQuickTidal, on 10 November 2021 - 05:37 PM, said:

Look, Brunet was the historical basis for Nathan Algren, and his relationship with Enomoto is the basis for Algren and Saigo...

I'm not sure how else to put it to you.


"I'm not sure how else to put it to you" - try explaining why you think this is so obvious and factual?


Because the writers of the movie talk about their inspiration for those characters being those real people? On the DVD.

View PostD, on 10 November 2021 - 06:13 PM, said:

View PostQuickTidal, on 10 November 2021 - 05:37 PM, said:

Enamoto's position as someone embracing westernization doesn't somehow remove his devotion to the Tokugawa family and his desire to see them restored as Shogun rulers (on Hokaiddo).


The plot of the last samurai movie is not about overthrowing the Emperor.


And you're missing my point about it being broader strokes rather than what the movie explicitly lays out, and more about loyalties and factions. This era of Japan was messy.

View PostD, on 10 November 2021 - 06:13 PM, said:

View PostQuickTidal, on 10 November 2021 - 05:37 PM, said:

Foreign guy comes to teach artillery tactics,


The real foreign advisors that went to Japan would have taught high-level tactics to generals and whatnot, but in the movie Algren isn't there to teach artillery tactics


Semantics. The artillery guns being taught is in the movie and done by those around Algren while he's there.

View PostD, on 10 November 2021 - 06:13 PM, said:

View PostQuickTidal, on 10 November 2021 - 05:37 PM, said:

stays past his mandate and military orders out of loyalty to a Japanese Samurai and helps that samurai to try to put his daimyo/their family back on the 'throne'.


There's no plot of "restoring rightful rule" in the movie. Saigo recognizes/agrees with the Emperor's status, he just doesn't like the changes being made to the laws of the country. The fruition of his rebellion in the movie isn't usurping the throne or regaining some status, it's convincing the Emperor to be more mindful of the samurai traditions (as represented by the Emperor cancelling a foreign trade deal he was previously preparing to enact).


Again, you're missing the thrust of my comment in favour of an exacting narrative 1:1.

You want to win the argument of my use of the phrase 'historical accuracy'? Okay. Go for it. I'm completely wrong. Happy?
"When the last tree has fallen, and the rivers are poisoned, you cannot eat money, oh no." ~Aurora
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