[The Farmer]

There"s not enough sheep in the books!

[lord of tragedy]

I remember reading somewhere that erikson said he was trying to avoid the traditional obsession of fantasy writing whereby disorder and dissoloution are followed by attempts to right all wrongs and bring the world back to balance because it was simplistic and twee. yet the whole shaik, onrack, kilvala triangle and ulshan pral's reappearance as the last living T'lan Imass was very like erikson falling into that trap. the ghost army at raruku grated with me aswell, too much like bad tad williams or gavreil kay. he opens a world that seems truly tragic in its brutality yet seems to shy away from totally going through with his conception. i wish he'd show some balls and realise the good guys don't always have to win or even achieve parity.

[dktorode]

lord of tragedy;315981 said:

I remember reading somewhere that erikson said he was trying to avoid the traditional obsession of fantasy writing whereby disorder and dissoloution are followed by attempts to right all wrongs and bring the world back to balance because it was simplistic and twee. yet the whole shaik, onrack, kilvala triangle and ulshan pral's reappearance as the last living T'lan Imass was very like erikson falling into that trap. the ghost army at raruku grated with me aswell, too much like bad tad williams or gavreil kay. he opens a world that seems truly tragic in its brutality yet seems to shy away from totally going through with his conception. i wish he'd show some balls and realise the good guys don't always have to win or even achieve parity.

have you read all the books?...the good guys don't always win.

[lord of tragedy]

thanks. i am aware of that. i still think i'm right though. some of eriksons plot lines are gushing and twee and its probably exaggerated by the maturity and grimness of the end of characters like coltaine, kulp, whiskey jack etc. seems like he could have done with a good editor alongside him.

[hardcaw]

lord of tragedy; I couldnt agree more. My only criticism of him is that he can manage to write 10 pages without saying much. It is a bit like J rowling and harry potter; it seems if they are successful writers, editors let them have their own way. DG was the tightest book for me, there is minimal time wasting in that

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

hardcaw;333382 said:

lord of tragedy; I couldnt agree more. My only criticism of him is that he can manage to write 10 pages without saying much. It is a bit like J rowling and harry potter; it seems if they are successful writers, editors let them have their own way. DG was the tightest book for me, there is minimal time wasting in that

I don't disagree that this happens, but i like his writing enough that I enjoy it even if nothing is being said.

[Skywalker]

Very interesting discussions lately on this here thread. I realized I have never really posted in here (well I have once or twice, but nothing comprehensive)... so here is an attempt at listing the issues I have with SE and the series...

I'll stay away from mentioning the consensus issues: timelines, geography, GoTMisms, magic mechanics, philosophical rambling, which honestly don't bug me any more than would finding a shard of bone in a meatloaf. I can excuse them because the loaf/ gravy is so damn good.

BUT...

1) I didn't get the tale's drift away from the Malazan Empire. Considering that the series is called the Malazan Book of the Fallen, I sometimes think events like those covered in NoK and (from what I can extrapolate based on Pat's review/ the prologue/ Chapter 1) in RoTCG should've been part of the main sequence.

I also don't like how post-TtH we're done with Genabackis and Seven Cities. "Lether and parts unseen" will see the climax of the series in DoD and tCG... said areas don't fall within the titular empire of the series! One could argue that we are still following the 'fallen' in the title... but when it comes to titles I tend to focus on any proper nouns

2) I don't quite like the deus ex machina and the somewhat predictable tactic of building something up and then resolving the issue some other way out of the blue... particularly big fights.

Rake vs Raest, Empire vs Darujhistan, the Path of Hands, T'lan Imass vs Pannion, Whirlwind vs the 14th, Tavore vs Felisin, Rhulad vs Brys, Ceda vs Hannan Mosag, Icarium vs. Trull, Icarium vs Karsa, Karsa vs Rhulad, Ruin vs Fear... and now I suspect Rake vs Clip! it was cute/ different/ surprising/ delightful in the first few instances... but I can now pretty much resign myself to being surprised (which is a monotony all its own).

3) The idea of the Eres'al same as others have said before grates. Also, for a series that is trying to move away from cliches, and is filled with such a variety of species, it is convenient that the most ape-like ancient critter available is upheld as a paragon of innocence (to the extent that it is the last true innocent being) rather than, say, a wyval or Greyfrog's fifth cousin, twice removed.

3) It is not explained sufficiently why of all the species that existed over the millennia, humans have come to be the most common intelligent species out there. I can understand that the founding races and the invading races are fading... it's just never explained what caused the human baby boom. Given SE's background I expected a line somewhere to say why and how humans became the dominant lifeform... filling some evolutionary niche emptied by the departure of the Jaghut/ KCCM/ FA/ TTT or some such.

Also other races don't display the kind of diversity in look and feel as humans do. There are no yellow polka dotted jaghut or striped dragons or red forkrul assail... still, SE scores on how much less stereotyping he does as compared to others.

4) The diversion that was Redmask and the Awl'dan mess. If that doesn't amount to much in Dust of Dreams, I'll... well... vent.

Nuff for now I think... let's discuss.

[wolf_2099]

Skywalker;333466 said:

1) I didn't get the tale's drift away from the Malazan Empire. Considering that the series is called the Malazan Book of the Fallen, I sometimes think events like those covered in NoK and (from what I can extrapolate based on Pat's review/ the prologue/ Chapter 1) in RoTCG should've been part of the main sequence.

Gotta call you on this. Erikson's books are a Tale of the Malazan Book of the Fallen, a 10 part series. ICE's focus on all of Wu, Malazan or not. They might call it a Book of the Malazan or what not, but only because that is how it would have to be marketed, since their world together would generally be referred to as the Malazan world, or Malazan books, I'd imagine.

[Skywalker]

wolf_2099;333477 said:

Gotta call you on this. Erikson's books are a Tale of the Malazan Book of the Fallen, a 10 part series. ICE's focus on all of Wu, Malazan or not. They might call it a Book of the Malazan or what not, but only because that is how it would have to be marketed, since their world together would generally be referred to as the Malazan world, or Malazan books, I'd imagine.

Um... going by title

SE's books: "Book # of the Malazan Book of the Fallen"
ICE's books: "A novel of the Malazan Empire"

What I'm saying is, if SE's series was about more than just the Malazan Empire (which it does seem to be) it should've had some other title - currently the situation is like if GRRM had called his series "A tale of the family Stark" - which it is, but isn't really.

Similarly if ICE's focus is on Wu, he would have to title any future novels (say the one on Assail) that don't have anything to do with the Empire as something other than "A novel of the...". NoK and RoTCG do qualify as novels of the malazan empire though...

[Optimus Prime]

Skywalker I'm totally with you on the other races not being as diversified. If humans can have black, blue, brown, white, red skin...why can't a Forkrul Assail or a Jaghut? At least touch on that SE, I've always had an issue with that in Fantasy in general. Even Tolkien was guilty of it with his Elves and Dwarves. They had different colored hair and stuff....but that's about it.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

The series is not about the malazan empire, it's about malazans. I think the majority of what's going on is going to affect our favorite malazans one way or another. A lot of the side stuff is tied to the crippled god in one form or another, who is going to affact malazans, and their empire, in a big way i think.

[Aptorian]

You know, there's an easy explanation to why Jaghut, FA, etc don't come in stripes, dots and funny colors. They don't evolve.

They live forever or something close to it, so they don't breed constantly and as such there have probably not been much more than a hundred generations of their species, if that, where there's been a thousand upon thousand generations of human development.

[Illuyankas]

Also, most of them are dead and have been dead for a long, long time.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Illuyankas;333952 said:

Also, most of them are dead and have been dead for a long, long time.

"I guess that's why they call it the blues....."

[GetALifeStealer]

i was wonderin that, if the white crow is so powerful like the way SE describes him, why didnt he see when an explosive quarrel was heading his way? this was almost at the end of the book? when i read that I was like
"WHAT" ,,,,,,,,,

[Aptorian]

"see"? You mean like as in "precognetive abilities"? Besides perhaps the Queen of Dreams no one in the Malazan world seems to have such an ability... unless you count deck readers.

To Ruin it must just have looked like a big crossbow bolt. Nothing to be afraid of right?

[Lisheo]

Bear in mind he's been sealed in a barrow for millenia and hasnt ever encountered munitions.

[Rath'Thrash]

Aptorian;340702 said:

To Ruin it must just have looked like a big crossbow bolt. Nothing to be afraid of right?

That's the beauty of Moranth munitions; they're 100% alchemical. No magic whatsoever, simply mortal ingenuity. Theoretically, ANY ascendant or god could be killed by a moranth munition, if he/she/it could be sufficiently distracted... Look at Fiddler blowing up one of the Dhenrabi D'ivers in DG. I'm sure there are more examples but none come to mind right now:p

[Knight of Bowen]

did anyone ever wonder when the malazans will ever run out of munitions.. you hear them say were running low... but they never get to the point of being depleted.. and the munitions get them out of far to many situations where death was they're only option. and dos'nt hedge have an unlimited bag of the shit.. i guess they wont be running out anytime soon.... again.

[Traveller]

Skywalker;333466 said:

It is not explained sufficiently why of all the species that existed over the millennia, humans have come to be the most common intelligent species out there. I can understand that the founding races and the invading races are fading... it's just never explained what caused the human baby boom. Given SE's background I expected a line somewhere to say why and how humans became the dominant lifeform... filling some evolutionary niche emptied by the departure of the Jaghut/ KCCM/ FA/ TTT or some such.

I think that point is made well by Karsa's journey at the start of HOC's. Since his grandfather's own journey, the small human farm he visited has developed into a busy town and port - in just two Toblakai generations. The older races live long, and breed slowly; the Jaghut even slower. (And they like their solitude, too.) Humans just multiply quicker, and lead (relatively) shorter lives.