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Not having the patience to read all 54 pages of criticism (that must hurt), sometimes it can be tiresome, or rather repetitive, when all the characters are deeply intelligent, thought provoking philosophers. Especially when it some to the common soldiery.
Don't get me wrong, I always the enjoy the complex interaction that SE does, but at times, you are left crying out for a straight forward, no-nonsense, dare I say, shallow persona.
There are certain characters that almost fill this criteria. Stormy, Krump, Hedge maybe. But no main protagonist.
The Chain of Dogs is guilty of this mainly from Duiker and List, and you can throw Lull in there for good measure also. I felt that this epic story was crying out for it to be seen via an "eyes in the dirt character", maybe Sa'yless Lorthal?
Oh, and the phrase "inhuman eyes" pops up a lot as well.
Criticism of Malazan Book of the Fallen
#801
Cerberus Maw 
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Posted 03 August 2008 - 12:04 AM
#802
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Posted 03 August 2008 - 05:17 AM
Dance;363461 said:
Spoiler
I don't know about others, but like Salamander Cake I could see it coming from a mile off. So it wasn't exactly a let down because it was so simple, but rather because I wanted it to be something else. It would have been kinda cool if I didn't know that it was going to happen.
tbh, the philosophizing doesn't really get me. I think it's fine. Hell, I can't actually bring myself to criticize the series, beyond the occasional gripe. Compared to other series' it's nearly perfect (meant in a totally non-fanboy way).
And the Quick Ben stuff was epic anyway. All of it. I wasn't let down by the sisters - on the contrary, I loved it! They were built up to be awesome, and then Quick came out awesomer!
***
Shinrei said:
<Vote Silencer> For not garnering any heat or any love for that matter. And I'm being serious here, it's like a mental block that is there, and you just keep forgetting it.
#803
zwitterion
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Posted 06 August 2008 - 08:38 PM
I've started noticing this in the last two or three books; the monotonous regularity with which SE breaks up his story arcs is really getting to me. There's something exhausting about reading an entire 800 page novel broken with mechanical regularity into 2.5 page story snippets (it might not physically be 2.5 I haven't counted, but that's the feel of it for me). I find it hard to dive into each of the arcs in that short span of time and the regularity does a great job of canceling out any immersion. There's just something boring about knowing at the start of a section that you're going to read about exactly one key conversation / scene / plot point after which you'll be whisked away to another one of the threads currently ongoing.
Which brings me to my other, very related peeve: those threads number so high that if any one of them were to be actually laid out contiguously you'd have something like the length of a weekly newspaper column. George RR Martin did this only a few hundred times worse which is why I can't stand his books; perhaps it's a fantasy literature Thing but I find a high degree of parallelism no substitute for actual story - in fact it seems like a cheap way of avoiding fleshing out just that. A classic example is the marines' trip through Lether in RG - an arc I loved and would have loved to read more of but which was reduced to something like a pamphlet sized collection of short scenes with inevitable punchlines that offered all the immersion of a school kid's What I Did For Summer assignment. Even the arcs that I'm not really interested in (like Pedac and Clip's hiking trip) would have seemed more relevant and worth investing attention in if it hadn't been diced into party-size chunks and spread so sparsely throughout the book.
Erikson is still the best modern fantasy author I've read and with TtH I'm rediscovering why I think that (for some reason I'm loving the prose there - seems like there's a concerted effort to alliterate a bunch too and it's crazy how effective such a simple device like that is). If only he'd tone down this OCD pacing and parallelism, the books would stop feeling like a laundry list of plot points and start feeling like brilliant, immersive fantasy literature again.
Which brings me to my other, very related peeve: those threads number so high that if any one of them were to be actually laid out contiguously you'd have something like the length of a weekly newspaper column. George RR Martin did this only a few hundred times worse which is why I can't stand his books; perhaps it's a fantasy literature Thing but I find a high degree of parallelism no substitute for actual story - in fact it seems like a cheap way of avoiding fleshing out just that. A classic example is the marines' trip through Lether in RG - an arc I loved and would have loved to read more of but which was reduced to something like a pamphlet sized collection of short scenes with inevitable punchlines that offered all the immersion of a school kid's What I Did For Summer assignment. Even the arcs that I'm not really interested in (like Pedac and Clip's hiking trip) would have seemed more relevant and worth investing attention in if it hadn't been diced into party-size chunks and spread so sparsely throughout the book.
Erikson is still the best modern fantasy author I've read and with TtH I'm rediscovering why I think that (for some reason I'm loving the prose there - seems like there's a concerted effort to alliterate a bunch too and it's crazy how effective such a simple device like that is). If only he'd tone down this OCD pacing and parallelism, the books would stop feeling like a laundry list of plot points and start feeling like brilliant, immersive fantasy literature again.
#804
wolverine
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Posted 18 August 2008 - 05:44 PM
Sometimes the description of people, creatures, or places is very lacking.
An example I have very little idea what the two herd species of the Awl look like (sorry I can't remember their names right now, rodarra maybe?). All I know is that one of them has wool.
Coincidentaly is there anywhere to find out what they are like? Sheep, goats, cows,??
An example I have very little idea what the two herd species of the Awl look like (sorry I can't remember their names right now, rodarra maybe?). All I know is that one of them has wool.
Coincidentaly is there anywhere to find out what they are like? Sheep, goats, cows,??
#805
tiam
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Posted 18 August 2008 - 08:24 PM
wolverine;371087 said:
Sometimes the description of people, creatures, or places is very lacking.
An example I have very little idea what the two herd species of the Awl look like (sorry I can't remember their names right now, rodarra maybe?). All I know is that one of them has wool.
Coincidentaly is there anywhere to find out what they are like? Sheep, goats, cows,??
An example I have very little idea what the two herd species of the Awl look like (sorry I can't remember their names right now, rodarra maybe?). All I know is that one of them has wool.
Coincidentaly is there anywhere to find out what they are like? Sheep, goats, cows,??
Thats a peculier qualm my frind. Most think taht Erikson describes every rock and blade of grass. Although it did take a couple of rereads of HOC to find out what gender nil and nether were.
Nils the boy i think
#806
Epiph
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Posted 19 August 2008 - 03:05 PM
tiam;371166 said:
Thats a peculier qualm my frind. Most think taht Erikson describes every rock and blade of grass. Although it did take a couple of rereads of HOC to find out what gender nil and nether were.
Nils the boy i think
Nils the boy i think
I agree with wolverine. While every rock and blade of grass is described, I find the description of characters lacking. However, TtH has proven much better on this count.
#807
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Posted 06 October 2008 - 02:32 PM
Epiph, on Aug 20 2008, 12:05 AM, said:
tiam;371166 said:
Thats a peculier qualm my frind. Most think taht Erikson describes every rock and blade of grass. Although it did take a couple of rereads of HOC to find out what gender nil and nether were.
Nils the boy i think
Nils the boy i think
I agree with wolverine. While every rock and blade of grass is described, I find the description of characters lacking. However, TtH has proven much better on this count.
Agreed, twice over.
i find some of his characters in general seem to be "rushed" if you know what im pointing at, kinda hard to be a bit more specific but they do feel "rushed"
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#808
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Posted 10 October 2008 - 05:58 PM
Spoiler
* generalised rant over *
sp sp sp
"I think i was a bad person before. Before this time. I do not try to be good now but i am not bad. Perhaps if i try harder i may get a better hand dealt next time? But surely that makes it pointless? Perhaps i am good. Just good at being pointless. But that would make me bad. Bad at having a point. Ah…. I see now. I was nothing before, I am nothing now. I am bad purely because im pointless. "
EQ 10
EQ 10
#809
Excellence
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Posted 11 October 2008 - 11:56 AM
The book said it a few pages later. There was intervention, when Brood hammered Kruppe. No guesses who that was, we all know who favours him. Mr K.
If there were no smart people others wouldn't feel inadequate.
Right?
Right?
#810 Guest_Noxchild_*
Posted 11 October 2008 - 04:59 PM
1) The grunting. Oh my god the grunting. Stop it now. My enjoyment of every Malaz book would shoot up by like 5% if SE just deleted all the grunting, that's how bloody annoying it is. Plus it's totally jarring for some characters. Average soldier or Karsa grunting? Whatevs. Cotillion or Paran? 
(Not that I'm saying these two have never emitted a non-word sound in their life, but I just tend to think of them as a little more civilised than that.)
2) I like the majority of SE's characters because often more than not, there's a little hook that just lines me in and durr, sinker
(Although I am probably the only person in the entirety of existence who liked the Mhybe's chapters and genuinely thought her arc was tragic and awful and 
) However, there are some that just fall flat, and for the love of god Seren Pedac is booooooring. I don't even wish she died a horrible death - I don't care enough about her to want that to happen. I just want her to like, have never existed. So much less of MT/RG to slog through, being totally apathetic and uncaring.
3) Ze romance. I am just not feeling it. Paran and Tattersail's one-night-stand was laughably overblown as something deep and serious, WJ-and-Korlat failed to make me care... at all... and if Trull is going to fall in love with anyone (and it's not me ) I wish SE spent more care than "oh bla blah, his eyes met the Acquitor's, and as if jolted, Trull looked away, suddenly hot blah blah". I don't even think Trull and Seren Pedac's relationship took like two pages to establish. Also I hate Seren Pedac can you tell.
4) The philosophising. Yeah, I know, it's nice to have characters who think. That tickles me too, and believe me, when I read it in House of Chains, I thought it was the most original thing ever. However, five pages of think, think, think and I start glazing over. Plus, when they are navel-gazing, I'd be able to swallow it more if the characters thought and spoke like people indicative of who they are, instead of tossing around big words and sounding like SE typing out... well, SE.
5) Does he even have an editor?
No, I'm joking, seriously, don't kill me 
Well, half-joking at least
And finally, the most grievous problem in Malaz of all 6) Why the fuck isn't there more Cotillion? We need a novel dedicated solely to the assassin-Ascendant who makes me happy... everywhere Shadowthrone and Pust can come along for the ride too! And hell, a novel on the origins of the Malazan Empire, unlikely as it is, would just colour me delighted. What can I say? I have a fond spot for Kellanved's child
(Not that I'm saying these two have never emitted a non-word sound in their life, but I just tend to think of them as a little more civilised than that.)2) I like the majority of SE's characters because often more than not, there's a little hook that just lines me in and durr, sinker
(Although I am probably the only person in the entirety of existence who liked the Mhybe's chapters and genuinely thought her arc was tragic and awful and ) However, there are some that just fall flat, and for the love of god Seren Pedac is booooooring. I don't even wish she died a horrible death - I don't care enough about her to want that to happen. I just want her to like, have never existed. So much less of MT/RG to slog through, being totally apathetic and uncaring.3) Ze romance. I am just not feeling it. Paran and Tattersail's one-night-stand was laughably overblown as something deep and serious, WJ-and-Korlat failed to make me care... at all... and if Trull is going to fall in love with anyone (and it's not me
) I wish SE spent more care than "oh bla blah, his eyes met the Acquitor's, and as if jolted, Trull looked away, suddenly hot blah blah". I don't even think Trull and Seren Pedac's relationship took like two pages to establish. Also I hate Seren Pedac can you tell.4) The philosophising. Yeah, I know, it's nice to have characters who think. That tickles me too, and believe me, when I read it in House of Chains, I thought it was the most original thing ever. However, five pages of think, think, think and I start glazing over. Plus, when they are navel-gazing, I'd be able to swallow it more if the characters thought and spoke like people indicative of who they are, instead of tossing around big words and sounding like SE typing out... well, SE.
5) Does he even have an editor?
No, I'm joking, seriously, don't kill me Well, half-joking at least And finally, the most grievous problem in Malaz of all 6) Why the fuck isn't there more Cotillion? We need a novel dedicated solely to the assassin-Ascendant who makes me happy... everywhere
Shadowthrone and Pust can come along for the ride too! And hell, a novel on the origins of the Malazan Empire, unlikely as it is, would just colour me delighted. What can I say? I have a fond spot for Kellanved's child
#811
Azure Horizon
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Posted 29 October 2008 - 11:43 PM
My biggest criticism with the series is that because it is so vast, many, many characters feel like they are written the same and appear to agonize over the same situations and details... really, many characters could be name-swapped and fit the others' role quite perfectly. Every character is a philosopher... that part does bug me quite a bit, but a lot of the best lines in the books are from these characters' internal monologues, so I guess that con evens out.
I also find myself attached to very few characters in the hundreds that have been introduced in the series. In comparison to Martin, whose characters are all very distinct and warped, SE's characters come off as just motivators for the plot to move forward, not people I can relate with. This is probably why I enjoy the ASOIAF series more. While SE's series is more epic, it's also less involving. You're on the sidelines during this grand tale of death, magic, and intrigue, whereas in Martin's magnum opus you are right in the thick of it all, experiencing what each character is experiencing.
So I guess to sum it all up:
1) Very few distinct characters, 90% of the characters feel like palette-swaps.
2) Detachment from the story itself
3) A little too much philosophizing
I also find myself attached to very few characters in the hundreds that have been introduced in the series. In comparison to Martin, whose characters are all very distinct and warped, SE's characters come off as just motivators for the plot to move forward, not people I can relate with. This is probably why I enjoy the ASOIAF series more. While SE's series is more epic, it's also less involving. You're on the sidelines during this grand tale of death, magic, and intrigue, whereas in Martin's magnum opus you are right in the thick of it all, experiencing what each character is experiencing.
So I guess to sum it all up:
1) Very few distinct characters, 90% of the characters feel like palette-swaps.
2) Detachment from the story itself
3) A little too much philosophizing
#812
sword of the Eleint
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Posted 06 November 2008 - 02:28 AM
"...My other concern is that there is no romance at all..."
I am not sure if this counts under your definition of "romance", but what about the Korlat/Whiskeyjack affair in MOI. I am not sure that I would count it.
I am not sure if this counts under your definition of "romance", but what about the Korlat/Whiskeyjack affair in MOI. I am not sure that I would count it.
#813
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Posted 07 November 2008 - 02:32 PM
Granted the romance is pretty pathetic. Paran and Tattersail had sex a few times and feel something for each other, and suddenly their bond is unbreakable and everyone's like, poor paran!! How will he deal with her death! I mean sure it sucks but I doubt it's as bad as they make it out to be.
Same with Wiskeyjack and Korlat, I mean, they just met, they knew each other a few weeks before Wiskeyjack kicked the bucket. And the whole time they're like, you're so great! I feel so much for you! If I said that shit to a girl after knowing her for a week or 2 she'd think I was a stalker or some shit.
Romance in this book has been extremely dissapointing. But then name me a fantasy book with good romance. =/
Same with Wiskeyjack and Korlat, I mean, they just met, they knew each other a few weeks before Wiskeyjack kicked the bucket. And the whole time they're like, you're so great! I feel so much for you! If I said that shit to a girl after knowing her for a week or 2 she'd think I was a stalker or some shit.
Romance in this book has been extremely dissapointing. But then name me a fantasy book with good romance. =/
Wise words are like arrows flung at your forehead. What do you do? Why, you duck of course.
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#814
Epiph
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Posted 12 November 2008 - 04:58 PM
Osric, on Nov 7 2008, 08:32 AM, said:
Granted the romance is pretty pathetic. Paran and Tattersail had sex a few times and feel something for each other, and suddenly their bond is unbreakable and everyone's like, poor paran!! How will he deal with her death! I mean sure it sucks but I doubt it's as bad as they make it out to be.
Same with Wiskeyjack and Korlat, I mean, they just met, they knew each other a few weeks before Wiskeyjack kicked the bucket. And the whole time they're like, you're so great! I feel so much for you! If I said that shit to a girl after knowing her for a week or 2 she'd think I was a stalker or some shit.
Romance in this book has been extremely dissapointing. But then name me a fantasy book with good romance. =/
Same with Wiskeyjack and Korlat, I mean, they just met, they knew each other a few weeks before Wiskeyjack kicked the bucket. And the whole time they're like, you're so great! I feel so much for you! If I said that shit to a girl after knowing her for a week or 2 she'd think I was a stalker or some shit.
Romance in this book has been extremely dissapointing. But then name me a fantasy book with good romance. =/
Picker and Blend are an excellent example of a devoted and long-term couple. Also Tehol and Bugg... what? Surely they count as a domestic partnership.
<--angry purple ball of yarn wielding crochet hooks. How does that fail to designate my sex?
#815
Mcflury
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Posted 12 November 2008 - 06:34 PM
Epiph, on Nov 12 2008, 05:58 PM, said:
Osric, on Nov 7 2008, 08:32 AM, said:
Granted the romance is pretty pathetic. Paran and Tattersail had sex a few times and feel something for each other, and suddenly their bond is unbreakable and everyone's like, poor paran!! How will he deal with her death! I mean sure it sucks but I doubt it's as bad as they make it out to be.
Same with Wiskeyjack and Korlat, I mean, they just met, they knew each other a few weeks before Wiskeyjack kicked the bucket. And the whole time they're like, you're so great! I feel so much for you! If I said that shit to a girl after knowing her for a week or 2 she'd think I was a stalker or some shit.
Romance in this book has been extremely dissapointing. But then name me a fantasy book with good romance. =/
Same with Wiskeyjack and Korlat, I mean, they just met, they knew each other a few weeks before Wiskeyjack kicked the bucket. And the whole time they're like, you're so great! I feel so much for you! If I said that shit to a girl after knowing her for a week or 2 she'd think I was a stalker or some shit.
Romance in this book has been extremely dissapointing. But then name me a fantasy book with good romance. =/
Picker and Blend are an excellent example of a devoted and long-term couple. Also Tehol and Bugg... what? Surely they count as a domestic partnership.
And you're forgetting Samar Dev and Karsa who are getting rather close too (even though Samar Dev's brain doesn't want to)
And Cot and ST in the same way as Tehol and Bugg.
"There is no struggle too vast no odds too overwhelming for even should we fail, should we fall, we will know that we have lived" - Anomander Rake
(From Toll the Hounds by Steven Erikson)
(From Toll the Hounds by Steven Erikson)
#817
Tsundoku
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Posted 13 December 2008 - 07:14 AM
Coldsnap, on Dec 3 2008, 08:47 AM, said:
I am an avid reader of the Malazan Books of the Fallen and I
... am unable to finish a sentence? I need closure!
On the romance aspect: maybe you too would feel that way if you were in their shoes, with either a short or long lifespan to look forward to ... provided the ever present threat of violent Death (who has a name and history, no less) didn't intervene. It's like some sort of juxtaposition (god, I hate using wank words but can't think of anything better at the moment) between the ennui (another wank word) of the long-lived and the fiercer spirit of those with shorter spans, combined with the environment makes for some ... ummm ... unreal situations. Like Keanu and Sandra in "Speed" - no basis from what we in our comfortable lives (and no immediate threat of death hanging over us) have come to expect, but no less real for that. That's what I got from Korlat and WJ anyway, a meeting of souls who just "clicked". Plus Paran was pretty young, and as emo music has taught us, it's SOOOOOO much more tragic at that age.
I hope you got the gist of what I was trying to say. I know I didn't.
Cheers,
La Sombra, can't believe he used a Keanu Reeves metaphor in a serious Malazan discussion. Kill me now.
This post has been edited by Sombra: 13 December 2008 - 07:17 AM
"Fortune favors the bold, though statistics favor the cautious." - Indomitable Courteous (Icy) Fist, The Palace Job - Patrick Weekes
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"I have strong views about not tempting providence and, as a wise man once said, the difference between luck and a wheelbarrow is, luck doesn’t work if you push it." - Colonel Orhan, Sixteen Ways to Defend a Walled City - KJ Parker
"Well well well ... if it ain't The Invisible C**t." - Billy Butcher, The Boys
"I have strong views about not tempting providence and, as a wise man once said, the difference between luck and a wheelbarrow is, luck doesn’t work if you push it." - Colonel Orhan, Sixteen Ways to Defend a Walled City - KJ Parker
#818
bhok'arala
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Posted 03 January 2009 - 10:42 PM
the quotes within quotes are getting annoying...
first of all, SE does not describe everything for you. somewhat like the gest of the wiki suing quotes so you can buiold your own opinion. many of the things (like people and places) have already been described in great detail the first time they popped up.
some of the arcs may be short (especially in climactic times) but you can't follow an arc for a week and then jump back a month in time to follow another. have you tried reading each arc at the same time?
and as far as romance goes, what about T'amber? (although, i must admit, I am hardpressed to find a happy-ending non-cynical romance.)
first of all, SE does not describe everything for you. somewhat like the gest of the wiki suing quotes so you can buiold your own opinion. many of the things (like people and places) have already been described in great detail the first time they popped up.
some of the arcs may be short (especially in climactic times) but you can't follow an arc for a week and then jump back a month in time to follow another. have you tried reading each arc at the same time?
and as far as romance goes, what about T'amber? (although, i must admit, I am hardpressed to find a happy-ending non-cynical romance.)
#819
tejko
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Posted 04 January 2009 - 01:06 PM
Many charachters don't have unique personallity especially in the latter books. Almouse everyone is funny, and witty. Dialogs are pretty much alike.
some other writters do much better. You can tell who is speaking by reading few sentences.
some other writters do much better. You can tell who is speaking by reading few sentences.
#820
RangerSG
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Posted 10 February 2009 - 04:57 AM
I'll agree that some characters are two-dimensional. I really feel that way about the characters in MT. I couldn't get myself to care about any of them besides Tehol and Bugg. Who then by their splendid development demonstrated how comparatively shallow the rest were. I also agree that some objects are over-explained as opposed to the characters. MT is my least favorite in the series by far. *shrugs* The ending is still amazing though.
I think the criticism of the Paran/Tattersail romance is a little overblown. Even Paran in the end tells Silverfox they had made more of it than there really was. And I think it's fair to say seeing as it seems to have been his first true romance and her last before her rebirth, it would've taken on a larger "retrospective" to both. I liked Korlat/Whiskeyjack myself. Perhaps because I like both those characters, and Whiskeyjack remains my favorite character in the series. His line about shacking up in an "abandoned Keep" with Korlat to Dujek was funny.
I think the criticism of the Paran/Tattersail romance is a little overblown. Even Paran in the end tells Silverfox they had made more of it than there really was. And I think it's fair to say seeing as it seems to have been his first true romance and her last before her rebirth, it would've taken on a larger "retrospective" to both. I liked Korlat/Whiskeyjack myself. Perhaps because I like both those characters, and Whiskeyjack remains my favorite character in the series. His line about shacking up in an "abandoned Keep" with Korlat to Dujek was funny.
