[worry]

Spoken like a true hellmonster.

[Gorgon]

I think jethiss is rake, for it to be spinnock lacks emotional impact as we didn't even know he was dead.

Come on guys it's clearly rake and he's back yo go on a killer road trip with mourn

[worry]

This world is officially a hellworld.

[Hocknose]

100% Spinnock in my opinion

"I would travel to Coral,' Jethiss answered. 'There is a modest barrow there I would pay my respects to. A good friend. Many evenings we spent together playing Kef Tanar."

We know Spinnock played Kef Tanar in Coral with Seerdomin, Seerdomin dies and had a small barrow was raised for him.

In my opinion ICE (through Fisher) was playing with us, making us think it could be Anomander.

[I_lurk_you]

I agree with Hacknose 100%.

[Gorgon]

Didn't anomander technically play those games with seerdomin?

Wasn't spinnock using his moves and reporting the results back to him?

[Hocknose]

but then Anomander wouldn't consider them a friend, I don't think

[Gorgon]

That we know of, I mean I was pretty sure krul was a bloke lol. Think anything can go in these books, is there enough time between the battle on the shore and jethiss appearance on assail for him to have wandered lost?

[Luperci]

buddhacat, on 16 August 2014 - 01:58 AM, said:

worry, on 16 August 2014 - 01:30 AM, said:

I'll just say it straight up: anyone who thinks Jethiss is Rake is a hellmonster, plain and simple. What's this obsession with Jethiss having to be a resurrected corpse? He might be I suppose, if Spinnock ever died off screen, but by no means is it necessary.

That said, all that stuff about the Imass is plausible and at least pretty interesting to think about. I think there's definitely a few different routes one can take from Point A (the prologue) to point Z (the present), but they all involve Lanas Tog being deceptive about the timing and especially hateful of the Jaghut.

That's rather presumptuous of you isn't it? We are hellmonsters because Fisher speculates that Jethiss might be Rake come back? We are obsessed because Fisher continually tries to jog Jethiss's memories with words and deeds of Rake? Do you see the stupidity of your objection?

As for who Jethiss is - Durav was no mage of Kurald Galain based on MBOTF or FOD, did not die near a gate (the breach in Lightfall is called just that, breach - never a gate, while the one in Dragnipur has been specifically named as a gate), had ample reason (after regaining memories) to be shocked to be called Son of Darkness but was not, had no reason to say "it was really just a title, may be now I'll earn it," there is no reason for him (Durav) to have a special blade though making one for Rake makes all kinds of Echo-Back sense, etc, etc.

Enough to go on with? I think so, ICE deliberately put it in the book to say so, and excuse me if I don't give a flying fuck that you think the rest of us are hellmonsters or should not talk about it.

ObSheesh: Sheesh.

If this is Rake re-born then who's Body is in the Barrow in Daru that Brood built? Did he just crawl out and take a ship from Gena to Assail? I think that Ice wants us to think that it could be Rake, he knows everyone adores Rake and wants him brought back but I just don't see why he would do that. Honestly I would be pretty disappointed if it was in fact Rake brought back from the dead, it just doesn't fit in with the nature of the Malazan world. Heroes who save the day and sacrifice themselves only come back to life in Hollywood flicks.

One thing we can stick to though if what we have read in the past is true for both writers is the white streaks of hair. It was said that the white hair represented the Chaotic touch of T'iam in the blood, from this we could assume that the person in question is part Eleint? This is how I at least see it unless the white hair doesn't represent the Soletaken blood idk sometimes things get changed in past writings or btw the authors. Instead of pure speculation based on one or two sentences said by someone who is known to change stories to make a better poem (Fisher - IMO wanted it to be Rake, convinced himself it probably was. Wanted a story a Bard could only dream of singing about). We need to look through both Authors books starting with Steves to draw the likely candidates for Jethiss, but honestly I think it could be a number of people except for Rake. Maybe we won't even be able to confirm it since we have no clue where certain people went after major events in SE's books.

[Gorgon]

Toc came back several times, hedge also came back, hood, draconus we've seen several comebacks already.

[buddhacat]

Now I'm looking forward to the Karsa trilogy with added anticipation:
Jethiss, Fisher, and Kyle going to Coral and presumably visit with Caladan Brood too. On the way, may be they'll encounter the new Seguleh First? Ganoes Paran will no doubt make some cameos at least, since the azath house in Darujhistan is his "home base." Then there's Tayshcrenn reborn, Kiska, Leoman. And no Crokus. May be Lady Envy and her Seguleh. Studlock and his Seguleh, Vorcan, Teya, the Noms, the few Bridgeburners, .... And that's just people we know, there will no doubt be newer characters as well. May be we will learn more about the Moranth.

Last but not least, in fact most, it will be SE writing the stories. Stoked!

[tiam]

I think it actually is Spinnock though im annoyed he died offscreen. Theres a few reasons the barrow one being the most obvious, a big nudge right at the end.

But I think the main reason its definitely Spinnock is simply ICE had Fisher set it up to be Rake. From the very first he was hinting through Fisher that he was bringing Rake back. Its very Malaz to flip it right at the end. This is more confusing however due to the nature in which Spinnock now died.

[buddhacat]

For what it's worth, I am fairly certain it's Spinnock Durav as well. The last conversation is quite suggestive: "Mother Dark offered a title." "Now more of an honorific, in truth." "... I was needed to stand as I had before."

The only thing keeping me from being certain (if anyone can be certain) is that Jethiss is a powerful mage of Kurald Galain, which Durav never showed before, and - most importantly - doubt that ICE would not make a mistake regarding who was playing Kef Tannar in Coral.

[worry]

I think the sorcery is part of the gift/responsibility MD imposes upon him. Also from this point on any time someone suggests Spinnock had to die to become Lethiss I vow to un-donate $5 from charity.

[Cyclorrhapha]

buddhacat, on 17 August 2014 - 03:12 AM, said:

For what it's worth, I am fairly certain it's Spinnock Durav as well. The last conversation is quite suggestive: "Mother Dark offered a title." "Now more of an honorific, in truth." "... I was needed to stand as I had before."

The only thing keeping me from being certain (if anyone can be certain) is that Jethiss is a powerful mage of Kurald Galain, which Durav never showed before, and - most importantly - doubt that ICE would not make a mistake regarding who was playing Kef Tannar in Coral.

It's plausible that Jethiss/Spinnock ascended to the unoccupied position of Knight of Darkness, hence his manipulation of Kurald Galain needn't be interpreted as odd.

[Gorgon]

Tbh I'd rather it was andarist than spinnock as I said spinnock,lacks any punch as there isn't a good reason for the amnesia Tec

[blackzoid]

I think its Spinnock. ICE ties it too directly and obviously to Rake with all of Fisher's points about the similarities. Its a red herring and for me at the end when Jethiss mention the games of Kaf Taner, that screamed Spinnock. Even if he has then died off screen. I was going with an unseen other son of Anomander like Nimander and co until that revelation.

Overall I liked the book. I'm ok with Lanas lying, I was never too keen on the idea of Human Tyrants killing all those Imass. Civil War works for me. The only possible quibble is Cotillion saying to disengage in The Bonehunters.

I liked that the T'lan Imass/Jaghut war is now officially over. Its something that I assumed from the end of TCG when they fought together, but I guess no formal armistice occured. I would have liked to see the other major entities from both races like Hood/Gothos and Tool as well but I guess they were never willing instigators of the war. Depending if SE changes it in the Tiste trilogy, Hood was probably never around in his pre-God of Death phase for the actual fighting anyway. And Tool was the only Imass whi didn't agree to the Ritual (thats still correct right?). So a peace treaty between the actual willing combatants. I liked Silverfoxes whine to "teacher" that the Jaghut started it. Theres an image, the FA as a kids teacher.

And speaking of them I really really liked that ICE brought back some of the eerie alien qualities to the FA. Not evil per say, but not to be fucked with. Assail seems to be their homeland and given the numbers of Pures there, if they really got going, they could maybe wipe out the world. I wonder if there was some disagreement between them and Reverence and the TCG gang of Pures. Those guys came from the "Wretched Coast", which sounds like a place on Assail but its not on the map. Maybe its another word for Wrack Coast?
Revences gang maybe just got tired of sleeping or was banished?

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 17 August 2014 - 08:18 PM

[helgi]

Abyss, on 11 August 2014 - 02:54 PM, said:

i vaguely recall grey, but Jethiss wasn't described as old and the hair was definitely white.

Now that said... you raise an interesting theory because Jethiss' semi-recall of a battle at a gate could totally fit a misremembered version of Andarist defending the Throne against the Edur in HoC.

...i like where that might go.

(I'm still reading the rest of the thread so forgive me if this was already covered).

Having just re-read HoC, when Crokus meets Andarist on Drift Avalii, he notes that he's thin-ish. As in, he looks more like a scholar than a fighter (this is when he's putting on the armor and grabbing Vengeance). Jethiss was supposedly extra muscular for an Andii?

[Abyss]

Keeping in mind Jethiss is supposed to be 'born of darkness', he's not really restricted to any particular body type or hair color. Or power set for that matter, since all Andii are aspected to KG so adding the ability to unveil the warren is hardly a stretch upon rebirth.

The hair thing seems to be a hint but could also be a message from Mommy D.

His last comment in the book really leaves us with only Rake and Spin as possibilities, as only they had any link to Seerdomin (that we know of).

[helgi]

Yup. I'm going with Spin for now. Bringing Rake back this soon just makes no sense to me. Also, Fisher was nudging us in that direction the whole book.