[worry]

Wellllllll, it could have fallen into myth because it happened a long time ago, when Iceblood Holds were numerous. Remember, the Kerluhm disappear because they're attacked by Forkrul in the prologue. They likely went to dust and were stuck that way by the Matriarch's unleashing of Omtose (after the Forkrul returned to their caves, having nobody to fight). Lanas Tog may have been the only one around for all these millennia (hence her grudge?), and left for the outside world only due to the call of the Summoner. She could have been telling the truth, but (deceptively) based on millennia old information. In other words, they hadn't been fighting that whole time, obviously (Olar Ethil found no presence of the Kerluhm, and besides, if they hadn't deactivated, the FA would have destroyed them for real). That's the significance of the prologue IMO, which happens at the tail end of the TI pogrom of the Icebloods, but well before "modern" MBOTF times.

This post has been edited by upworthywort: 12 August 2014 - 10:11 PM

[Pig Iron]

upworthywort, on 12 August 2014 - 10:09 PM, said:

Wellllllll, it could have fallen into myth because it happened a long time ago, when Iceblood Holds were numerous. Remember, the Kerluhm disappear because they're attacked by Forkrul in the prologue. They likely went to dust and were stuck that way by the Matriarch's unleashing of Omtose (after the Forkrul returned to their caves, having nobody to fight). Lanas Tog may have been the only one around for all these millennia (hence her grudge?), and left for the outside world only due to the call of the Summoner. She could have been telling the truth, but (deceptively) based on millennia old information. In other words, they hadn't been fighting that whole time, obviously (Olar Ethil found no presence of the Kerluhm, and besides, if they hadn't deactivated, the FA would have destroyed them for real). That's the significance of the prologue IMO, which happens at the tail end of the TI pogrom of the Icebloods, but well before "modern" MBOTF times.

From MOI:

"I am Lanas Tog. Sent to bring word of the fates of the Ifayle T’lan Imass and of my own Kerluhm T’lan Imass.’ ‘How fascinating,’ Lady Envy said. ‘And their fates are?’ ‘I am the last of the Kerluhm. The Ifayle, who heeded our first summons, are all but destroyed. Those few that remain cannot extricate themselves from the conflict. I myself did not expect to survive the attempt. Yet I have.’ ‘A horrific conflict indeed,’ Lady Envy quietly observed. ‘Where does it occur?’ ‘The continent of Assail. Our losses: twenty-nine thousand eight hundred and fourteen Kerluhm. Twenty-two thousand two hundred Ifayle. Eight months of battle. We have lost this war.’ Lady Envy was silent for a long moment, then she said, ‘It seems you’ve finally found a Jaghut Tyrant who is more than your match, Lanas Tog.’ The T’lan Imass cocked her head. ‘Not Jaghut. Human.’"

The prologue of Assail has two parts, one with the Kerluhm 33000 years BBS and one 6000 years BBS with the Ifayle. Could be like you're saying.

Edit: that quote was already posted,sorry!

This post has been edited by Pig Iron: 12 August 2014 - 10:57 PM

[Saitama]

upworthywort, on 12 August 2014 - 10:09 PM, said:

Remember, the Kerluhm disappear because they're attacked by Forkrul in the prologue.

Their numbers don't add up in the first place. They could have been only an advance party, but that would mean that 29k T'lan were blindsided by a half dead Jaghut and her ritual that (according to ICE himself) should take considerable time. The only other way it makes sense if ICE ignored SE's figures and wrote his own lore. Which would be weird but certainly not uncommon for him.

Quote

Lanas Tog may have been the only one around for all these millennia (hence her grudge?), and left for the outside world only due to the call of the Summoner.

It could also be that she blames Icebloods for the divide among Ifayle in the second part of the prologue, thus making them responsible for T'lan killing each other. But why isn't she in the prologue in the first place?

[Moss]

Finished it, and overall liked it, particullary the first and last third. Some thoughts:

- There were too many story-lines about trying to reach the gold lands, particullary the crossings of the Dread Sea (aka the Sea of Dread ). We have three different story-lines for that. I rolled my eyes at the third, allright I get it, its dangerous. All 3 could have been easily condensed into one. That said, I generally liked the nautical scenes.

- ICE could have stayed with 3 different approaches to Assail. Per ship over the Sea of Dread (Crimson Gurad and Crust), overland from the south like the expedition (which was set aside a third into the book) and overland from the north (Kyle's journey). I think he realized that there were too much story threads, so he cut the Expedition and Kyle's journey via the Lady's Luck.

- Speaking of story-lines, there were some of too little consequence. E.g. Reuth's (unless it was a setup for a later book), the Genabakan prince and Lyan (the same), the first crossing of the Dread Sea (ok, crust got wounded, but he's alive and healthy at the end of the book), the Primogenatrix and the Blue Shields weren't needed aswell.

- The Vow: So the Crimson Guard can come back to life unharmed, without there mortal wounds? Also, a few knives are enough to kill them now? Bars got his head nearly severed by a Seguleh and lived. The Avowed were more badass in RotCG.

- Iron Bars: I didn't really need to know why he's called that..

- Kyle: His story was meandering. The croosing of the silent people's land was, as a chapter, too long. I found myself wishing that it finally ends. After he parted with Lyan (I can't even remember why they did) he finally arrives at the Holds, only to move back south to find Lyan again, only to leave her again to travel back to the Holds

- I really liked the battle scenes. The battle with the shipwreckers was particullary well done. Also, Jute Hernan's story was my favourite part of the book.

- Jethiss: I thinks it's obvious that he's Spinnock. But wasn't Nimander meant to be the new Leader of the Andii, can't really remember.

- I didn't realized Svartbhull was the Spear that impalled the female Jaghut at the beginning until the very end.

- Finally, I liked the ending, it fitted. There are enough open threads for some more books.

This post has been edited by Moss: 13 August 2014 - 01:31 PM

[Abyss]

Pig Iron, on 12 August 2014 - 09:13 PM, said:

Loved this book too. More emotional for me than many of the Malazan books for some reason.

Great posts above, thanks. About the only thing I didn't like was a reborn Anomander, and then did a double-take at the Kef Tanar line on the last page. Anomander would never have stated his priority as going to Coral and visit a barrow and play with a friend ... And I thought the wording about "Son of Darkness" to be strange until I read the discussion above.

I don't think Assail was over-hyped. The way I read it was that there were very few Icebloods left (used to be Holds all over) after entire Tlan Imass clans had wiped themselves out in a genocidal war against them.

Pig Iron, on 12 August 2014 - 10:03 PM, said:

Stoneburner, on 12 August 2014 - 09:21 PM, said:

Pig Iron, on 12 August 2014 - 09:13 PM, said:

Loved this book too. More emotional for me than many of the Malazan books for some reason.

Great posts above, thanks. About the only thing I didn't like was a reborn Anomander, and then did a double-take at the Kef Tanar line on the last page. Anomander would never have stated his priority as going to Coral and visit a barrow and play with a friend ... And I thought the wording about "Son of Darkness" to be strange until I read the discussion above.

I don't think Assail was over-hyped. The way I read it was that there were very few Icebloods left (used to be Holds all over) after entire Tlan Imass clans had wiped themselves out in a genocidal war against them.

Except, the implication from the story is that the "army of dust and bone" had long fallen into the myth category. Given the unwieldy timelines with the malazan books, maybe it makes sense, however.

That is true, the Icebloods should have been very aware of the T'lan Imass threat, and not as myth. I think Silverfox said T'lan were being destroyed on Assail in an earlier book though. For now I'll file this under Malazan timeline inconsistencies etc like you say.

Pig Iron, on 12 August 2014 - 10:51 PM, said:

upworthywort, on 12 August 2014 - 10:09 PM, said:

Wellllllll, it could have fallen into myth because it happened a long time ago, when Iceblood Holds were numerous. Remember, the Kerluhm disappear because they're attacked by Forkrul in the prologue. They likely went to dust and were stuck that way by the Matriarch's unleashing of Omtose (after the Forkrul returned to their caves, having nobody to fight). Lanas Tog may have been the only one around for all these millennia (hence her grudge?), and left for the outside world only due to the call of the Summoner. She could have been telling the truth, but (deceptively) based on millennia old information. In other words, they hadn't been fighting that whole time, obviously (Olar Ethil found no presence of the Kerluhm, and besides, if they hadn't deactivated, the FA would have destroyed them for real). That's the significance of the prologue IMO, which happens at the tail end of the TI pogrom of the Icebloods, but well before "modern" MBOTF times.

From MOI:

"I am Lanas Tog. Sent to bring word of the fates of the Ifayle T'lan Imass and of my own Kerluhm T'lan Imass.' 'How fascinating,' Lady Envy said. 'And their fates are?' 'I am the last of the Kerluhm. The Ifayle, who heeded our first summons, are all but destroyed. Those few that remain cannot extricate themselves from the conflict. I myself did not expect to survive the attempt. Yet I have.' 'A horrific conflict indeed,' Lady Envy quietly observed. 'Where does it occur?' 'The continent of Assail. Our losses: twenty-nine thousand eight hundred and fourteen Kerluhm. Twenty-two thousand two hundred Ifayle. Eight months of battle. We have lost this war.' Lady Envy was silent for a long moment, then she said, 'It seems you've finally found a Jaghut Tyrant who is more than your match, Lanas Tog.' The T'lan Imass cocked her head. 'Not Jaghut. Human.'"

The prologue of Assail has two parts, one with the Kerluhm 33000 years BBS and one 6000 years BBS with the Ifayle. Could be like you're saying.

Edit: that quote was already posted,sorry!

Second Sword, on 13 August 2014 - 09:44 AM, said:

upworthywort, on 12 August 2014 - 10:09 PM, said:

Remember, the Kerluhm disappear because they're attacked by Forkrul in the prologue.

Their numbers don't add up in the first place. They could have been only an advance party, but that would mean that 29k T'lan were blindsided by a half dead Jaghut and her ritual that (according to ICE himself) should take considerable time. The only other way it makes sense if ICE ignored SE's figures and wrote his own lore. Which would be weird but certainly not uncommon for him.

Quote

Lanas Tog may have been the only one around for all these millennia (hence her grudge?), and left for the outside world only due to the call of the Summoner.

It could also be that she blames Icebloods for the divide among Ifayle in the second part of the prologue, thus making them responsible for T'lan killing each other. But why isn't she in the prologue in the first place?

Y'know i think we've got it here... everything Lanas Tog said is true, she just just omits that it all happened a few dozen millenia ago, and that the human Tyrants are the descendants of the Jaghut who triggered that massacre.

It's actually a very reasonable explanation. Perfect even.

[Saitama]

That fits, more or less. But it still doesn't explain what happened to the 29k of Kerluhm. Unless they patiently waited for the Jaghut to make 29k babies so they could have a two team deathmatch. That matron must have been one dedicated woman
I think that ICE just ignored Lanas Tog all and her talk.

This post has been edited by Second Sword: 13 August 2014 - 03:29 PM

[Spoilsport Stonny]

The tale of the Kerluhm is told when they arrive on the shore where Pran Chole, the Kron and Silverfox are.

Quote

‘We are newly reawakened to the world, true. We were caught crossing the Agadal and the ice took us. It seems we slept for ages. And while we slumbered, interned, that river of ice carried us far afield indeed. I awoke on the shore of an unknown sea and freed what companions I could find. Then we heard the Call …’

The Ifayle were discussed in the second part of the prologue, where they meet a few humans. The humans are larger than normal with big teeth, then they speak in the Jaghut tongue and the one goes to attack them, but is stopped by the other Ifayle and they fight each other. So there's those losses. I suppose this is them heeding the "first summons", although by then, nearly 25,000 years had passed (the timeline doesn't matter...).

Even Silverfox says Lanas "lied", but then Pran says:

Quote

‘She did not lie. You could say she told a half-truth. What she imagined would bring us to this land.’

So as Abyss says:

Quote

Y'know i think we've got it here... everything Lanas Tog said is true, she just just omits that it all happened a few dozen millenia ago, and that the human Tyrants are the descendants of the Jaghut who triggered that massacre.

It's actually a very reasonable explanation. Perfect even.

Indeed, perfect.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

As an aside, its nice to flip the idea that's been around since MoI that Assail is this badass place that no one should go to and none could ever escape, with it's actual existence as a refuge from the T'lan Imass aggression.

And I can even see how Cotillion says these "Tyrants" are just playing a game. It also clarifies the human tyrant thing a little bit as well. I would consider Mist a Tyrant, for sure. She's certainly enslaving people, but she's not as much a human tyrant as it seems she has some pretty obvious Jaghut qualities.

[Saitama]

It does sound convincig, but not perfect.
Ifayle losses are accounted for, but Kerluhm? If they were merely frozen, 29k of them should resurface, not just a hundred. Unless there are 29 000 undead standing on a beach somewhere...

I also don't like the fact that the matron almost got killed by a squad of T'lan, but later turned out to be a powerhouse, but I guess that is not that unusual for Malazan world.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Fallout from the OP ritual that trapped them is likely enough cause to wipe out many of the Kerluhm numbers, effectively rendering many of the TI unable to turn to dust, and its also likely that only a few hundred were freed from the ritual's ice.

[Abyss]

...my thoughts on your thoughts....

Moss, on 13 August 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

...- There were too many story-lines about trying to reach the gold lands, particullary the crossings of the Dread Sea (aka the Sea of Dread ). We have three different story-lines for that. I rolled my eyes at the third, allright I get it, its dangerous. All 3 could have been easily condensed into one. That said, I generally liked the nautical scenes.

I dunno.. it's not like there is an abundance of fantasy writers writing nautical based stories. I didn't mind the three, particularly since one didn't make it. Plus they gave us some of the best action scenes in the book... the Malazans and Blue Helms breaking the ambush, and the Shaar/Sheer vs Crimson Guard.

Quote

- ICE could have stayed with 3 different approaches to Assail. Per ship over the Sea of Dread (Crimson Gurad and Crust), overland from the south like the expedition (which was set aside a third into the book) and overland from the north (Kyle's journey). I think he realized that there were too much story threads, so he cut the Expedition and Kyle's journey via the Lady's Luck.

They all tied together by the end, and we didn't need every step (or stroke) of every journey. The expedition became Fisher and Jethiss' story, which linked to the Lost bros and eventually back to Kyle's, while Malle and the rest showed up again at the fort.

Quote

- Speaking of story-lines, there were some of too little consequence. E.g. Reuth's (unless it was a setup for a later book), the Genabakan prince and Lyan (the same), the first crossing of the Dread Sea (ok, crust got wounded, but he's alive and healthy at the end of the book), the Primogenatrix and the Blue Shields weren't needed aswell.

Reuth joined the Mare crew at the end, which i thought was a nice touch.
Dorrin and Lyan were just an aside in Kyle's journey, with some backstory to make them interesting and give Kyle the chance to beat twleve soldiers in a straightup swordfight.
Crust never fuly recovered but he's a tough bastard.
The Primogenetrix added some useful backstory and the Blue Helms were a nod to events in TCG and i thought the way their story subverted Togg/Fanderley's plans was great fun.

Quote

- The Vow: So the Crimson Guard can come back to life unharmed, without there mortal wounds? Also, a few knives are enough to kill them now? Bars got his head nearly severed by a Seguleh and lived. The Avowed were more badass in RotCG.

I think that's sort of the point. It's not true immortality ... it's a weird sort of undead and they aren't happy about it.
As for a few knives, those weren't normal knives and Shimmer took a bunch of them.

Quote

- Iron Bars: I didn't really need to know why he's called that..

Oh cmon, you know you always wondered....

Quote

- Kyle: His story was meandering. The croosing of the silent people's land was, as a chapter, too long. I found myself wishing that it finally ends. After he parted with Lyan (I can't even remember why they did) he finally arrives at the Holds, only to move back south to find Lyan again, only to leave her again to travel back to the Holds

Kyle's wandering is indicative of him trying to find his place between humans, Icebloods, being the hero Whiteblade, joining a human cause (Dorrin), being part of the Guard (defending the Losts), etc etc.
It's meandering with a purpose, if you will, that ends with him deciding to go with the human hero thing that's a logical end point for his storyline through three books.
I don't actually think he had a single stop that didn't either teach him something or at least advance the broader story... it wasn't just a series of random encounters.

Quote

- I really liked the battle scenes. The battle with the shipwreckers was particullary well done. Also, Jute Hernan's story was my favourite part of the book.

Agreed. Jute especially really grew on me as his story advanced. He gave a really fun perspective on the rest of the people he was with, including his wife and esp Crust.

Quote

- Jethiss: I thinks it's obvious that he's Spinnock. But wasn't Nimander meant to be the new Leader of the Andii, can't really remember.

Per upthread debate, far from obvious but totally possible.
Nimander was leader as of the end of the Kharkanas storyline in TCG.

Quote

- I didn't realized Svartbhull was the Spear that impalled the female Jaghut at the beginning until the very end.

"That's my spear!" ...heee...

Quote

- Finally, I liked the ending, it fitted. There are enough open threads for some more books.

Totally, and not in a bothersome way. Sure, i WANT the answers to Jethiss and to see how the Guard's new status affects them and wtf was Lanas Tog's deal, but otherwise the book nicely ended everything it started and the Assail storyline to a satisfying point.

Overarching storylines like Mallick Rel... well... i guess we'll see (tho i suspect SE's Toblakai trilo will get to that particular point).

[Abyss]

Spoilsport Stonny, on 13 August 2014 - 05:37 PM, said:

Fallout from the OP ritual that trapped them is likely enough cause to wipe out many of the Kerluhm numbers, effectively rendering many of the TI unable to turn to dust, and its also likely that only a few hundred were freed from the ritual's ice.

And ice moves. A bunch of them would have been ground down to nothing. Plus separated and not all defrosted at the same time.

[worry]

Plus, I think the Forkrul Assail wiped many of them out. It's not like the TI would return to dust w/o a fight. I didn't mean to imply that they did so immediately upon the attack. Plus all the stuff above about the effects of ice grinding those caught before they could go dust, plus the effect that Omtose is having (ie if TI can't turn to dust and must walk overland, those that are still dust probably can't semble).

[Saitama]

There are things I dislike in that theory (the matron was fleeing a group of T'lan and then, half-dead and broken, annihilated most of the clan, the ritual worked out rather conveniently for Silverfox and the story) but I admit that overall it does sound convincing.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Second Sword, on 14 August 2014 - 07:56 AM, said:

...the ritual worked out rather conveniently for Silverfox and the story...

Maybe convenient for them, but not so convenient for thousands of people in the Assail villages that Lanas Tog, et al, annihilated.

[Luperci]

Spoilsport Stonny, on 28 July 2014 - 09:23 PM, said:

Finally! Someone I can share my joy with...

Abyss said:

BEST UPGRADE - Kyle rocked this book. After being with us this long and never quite shining, this was his book. His fight scenes were great fun to read, but aside from that i enjoyed his return home, his slow acceptance of being The Whiteblade, his kind of ignorant bravery in the face of serious opposition... when he took on 12 warriors to distrct them from Lyan and Dorrin, it made perfect sense, and so did the way the fight went. I liked his reflections on the Thel-Akai, and Greymane, and his time with the Crimson Guard.

Yes. His run through the Silent People was chilling, and I'm pretty sure he would have held his own against two or three FA.

Agreed. As old and tough as the FA may be that Elient Blade of his would have cut them like butter. Not to mention he has Jaghut blood, Traveled with Dassembrae, carries the favor of a Child of the Earth, trained with CG Avowed and StoneWielder, took a swipe at a CG shard manifestation, Treated with Gods of Shadow and a Liosan Soletaken, Is the Plain's Tribes Champion. Kyle's one bad mother fucker, and still maintains his humbleness.

[Saitama]

Spoilsport Stonny, on 14 August 2014 - 01:57 PM, said:

Maybe convenient for them, but not so convenient for thousands of people in the Assail villages that Lanas Tog, et al, annihilated.

Who really cares about peasants, though? After all, they're usually sacrificed so we know who the bad guys are.


As for Kyle, I think that 1 Pure at a time is his limit with a 50:50 chance of victory. He is not particularly resistant to magic, so the FA's command could overwhelm him or at least slow him down. FA are way stronger, faster and more durable than humans, with unpredictable movements (bending arms in all directions) and greater reach. Kyle would have to go for a one-hit kill, given that he cannot survive trading blows and his fighting style isn't particularly useful vs an oponent who is considerably faster and can swing an arm and bend it backwards at the last moment.

[tiam]

Just finished

Meh

I agree with alot of what Second Sword has said. A good read just not the Assail that was built up. I actually liked the Imass civil war plotline. So rather than Assail being a place that can chew up 50k Imass it was a civil war.

Regarding the numbers could it not simply be a warband chases a Jaghut upto the mountains and a large contingent are killed. We seem to be taking these figures as if the Imass travel in armies of 29k rather than smaller warbands which is what weve seen before. In MOI the Imass operate in a small grouping of warriors during the hunting of the Jaghut. Could not one warband have sensed a presence which we see in both instances in the prologue?

So a sequence of events could be the Imass arrive piecemeal with the warband we see in the prologue happening throughout history, wiping out portions of the Imass through the FA. This crippled Jaghut, as a result of her fall, becomes more focused on sorcery giving her a power boost. She then mates with members of the human population, and sires the line of Icebloods that eventually come to dominate the north and be a presence in the south. This would take a long time but by the reckoning of the Imass could only be a few thousand years which is next to nothing in the immortal chase against the Jaghut. It would also be helped by the extended lifespan Icebloods have, allowing for one to sire for generations.

The Jaghut matriarch has shielded herself more successfully against Imass senses. Her influence now extends over the course of the continent, a refugium of OP as is stated. This causes the Imass to be unable to manifest themselves effectively, due to OP effecting them moving as dust or because, as with the Imass on Lether, they have no Bonecaster to help themselves materialise. This plus the last bastion of the Jaghut ice age protecting Assail might have allowed for the isolated Iceblood population to expand though maybe not. When they do materialise they see the new population and immediately come to blows amongst themselves as we see in the prologue. The Imass as we see in other books are far from united in their hatred of the Jaghut.

So some Imass battle through the ice, get killed by the FA and the cripple the Jaghut. She becomes matriarchs of the Icebloods, protected by her magic as well as the ice age around Assail, protecting the fledgling Iceblood population. Imass warbands, two tribes in particular, land on Assail in small warband form and immediately attack each other over the conflict of killing humans, which they had to do at the end of the HFE to expunge a threat. This happens over the thousand of years leading to mass casualties among the Imass who were hampered by . So its not a mass battle against the Imass just the slow attrition leading to Lanas Tog telling a 'half truth' to Silverfox about humans being the problem.

So Lanas Tog states that a human has caused the death of 50k Imass which is true as they are fighting humans though the mainstay of the casualties come not from the conflict but the Imass civil war. We see that Lanas Tog is not against her kin. She refuses to stop and deal with the Summoners Imass that are following as once the extermination of the Jaghut and the Icebloods are over there is no quarrel with her kin.

As for the rest Assail was grossly underpowered as a continent. As someone said Himatan, with its ancient entities was a much better mystery continent. Fisher himself states that Assail was due to be invaded and that he had seen it many times over his lifetime on different continents. The fact a few mercenaries, pirates and some Letherii troops were enough to invade this 'deadly' continent took the shine off for me. The forces arrayed against Assail would have struggled tp take a well defended city on Genabackis.

Plus no human Tyrants. The 'its all a game to the Tyrants on Assail' and 'he knows nothing of the wars to the north' (in reference to Kyle) was never really realised as a plot. As someone said upthread the closest we get was Mist, a middling mage with a few hundred pirates shed turned to farmers and (what I presume to be) Jhag Anap children enforcers. The entities on Assail other than the FA and the suspiciously powerful Jaghut they were less than middling powers. The Sharrs were hardly entities of great power and were dealt with comfortably by Cowl.

The Anomander question- Spinnock doesnt die on screen. The gate and power level of Jethiss can refer really to Rake or at a stretch Andarist. Spoilsport Stonnys quote fu and the plausibility of his arguement of it being Spinnock aside it is meant to be Rake. Which means ICE brought back Rake.

Kyle- I never had a problem with Kyle anyway before this book but he did grow in this more than the others. He is essentially a farmer who finds a lightsaber though. Do we get an explanation on the sword? Its meant to be older than Osserc and a blade of chaos. Also those Pures (I assume were taking them to be non corrupted Pures who kept to the initial peace and were only adjudicators like there old role?) would have one shotted him before he drew his sword.

A bit rambly my apologiees im very tired as ive only just finished. I didnt hate it like I did with Blood and Bone and would have enjoyed it alot more if it hadnt been his final book of this arc or set on Assail. Most of it tied up, predictably so with the CGRD. I would have liked a bit more info on a few things and theres a few unresolved plots from previous books (the significance of BaB entire plot, Orchid etc) that I would have liked to have been addressed but it seems they never will.

This post has been edited by tiam: 15 August 2014 - 11:54 PM

[worry]

I'll just say it straight up: anyone who thinks Jethiss is Rake is a hellmonster, plain and simple. What's this obsession with Jethiss having to be a resurrected corpse? He might be I suppose, if Spinnock ever died off screen, but by no means is it necessary.

That said, all that stuff about the Imass is plausible and at least pretty interesting to think about. I think there's definitely a few different routes one can take from Point A (the prologue) to point Z (the present), but they all involve Lanas Tog being deceptive about the timing and especially hateful of the Jaghut.

[buddhacat]

worry, on 16 August 2014 - 01:30 AM, said:

I'll just say it straight up: anyone who thinks Jethiss is Rake is a hellmonster, plain and simple. What's this obsession with Jethiss having to be a resurrected corpse? He might be I suppose, if Spinnock ever died off screen, but by no means is it necessary.

That said, all that stuff about the Imass is plausible and at least pretty interesting to think about. I think there's definitely a few different routes one can take from Point A (the prologue) to point Z (the present), but they all involve Lanas Tog being deceptive about the timing and especially hateful of the Jaghut.

That's rather presumptuous of you isn't it? We are hellmonsters because Fisher speculates that Jethiss might be Rake come back? We are obsessed because Fisher continually tries to jog Jethiss's memories with words and deeds of Rake? Do you see the stupidity of your objection?

As for who Jethiss is - Durav was no mage of Kurald Galain based on MBOTF or FOD, did not die near a gate (the breach in Lightfall is called just that, breach - never a gate, while the one in Dragnipur has been specifically named as a gate), had ample reason (after regaining memories) to be shocked to be called Son of Darkness but was not, had no reason to say "it was really just a title, may be now I'll earn it," there is no reason for him (Durav) to have a special blade though making one for Rake makes all kinds of Echo-Back sense, etc, etc.

Enough to go on with? I think so, ICE deliberately put it in the book to say so, and excuse me if I don't give a flying fuck that you think the rest of us are hellmonsters or should not talk about it.

ObSheesh: Sheesh.