[Saitama]

I disagree that the Assail lack of 'epilogueness' ;-) has anything to do with TCG. I've read all of ICE's books after finishing MBotF and IMHO the series lacks anything resembling a main theme. It's just a collection of loosely connected stories from different continents. I realize now that it could have been exactly what ICE wanted and it doesn't neccessarily bother other readers, but I can't help feeling dissapointed. There was so much to tell about the Malazan Empire and its influence on other nations/cultures but all we get is 'tyrant of the week' kind of stories.

Putting that aside, the book feels like it would be a better fit in the middle of the series. We get some answers, we get some new questions. Kyle/Silverfox/Crimson Guard come to Assail, learn something new, decide to go somewhere else. What are they gonna do with that newly acquired knowledge? Who knows, the end. All in all, a pretty good book but lacking any strong resolutions.

[Mentalist]

Second Sword, on 21 August 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

I disagree that the Assail lack of 'epilogueness' ;-) has anything to do with TCG. I've read all of ICE's books after finishing MBotF and IMHO the series lacks anything resembling a main theme. It's just a collection of loosely connected stories from different continents. I realize now that it could have been exactly what ICE wanted and it doesn't neccessarily bother other readers, but I can't help feeling dissapointed. There was so much to tell about the Malazan Empire and its influence on other nations/cultures but all we get is 'tyrant of the week' kind of stories.

Putting that aside, the book feels like it would be a better fit in the middle of the series. We get some answers, we get some new questions. Kyle/Silverfox/Crimson Guard come to Assail, learn something new, decide to go somewhere else. What are they gonna do with that newly acquired knowledge? Who knows, the end. All in all, a pretty good book but lacking any strong resolutions.

This obviously comes down to taste, but the one thing that made Malaz stand out so much to me was that it was essentially written as a "slice of history in a world much larger than the story"-type way. In that sense, Malaz really isn't the type of series where I'd expect a neat little epilogue with "and they all lived happily ever after (except those who died)". In fact, the type of epilogue we got for tCG itself seemed to be more fan service than anything. So an ending that leaves open the possibility.

Throughout the writing of Malaz books, both SE and ICE made it clear that ICE will tell the story of the CriG, the Wall, and Assail--the "gaps" so to speak in the sweep of MBotF's story. He has done that. Not to everyone's satisfaction, but we now know what the CriG really were, what the Wall was far, and what's the big deal about Assail. Oh, we also got closure on Darujhistan.

I recall, I think back after tBH (or was it TtH?) we've come up with a master list of all the major unresolved plot threads, and we speculated how ICE might help resolve some of these. I haven't gone back to look, but it seems like we've covered smth like 95% of those with tCG and now Assail.

[blackzoid]

The Crimson Guard was probably the mainish theme of the ICE books I think.
But what Assail did as an "epilogue" to the whole Malazan cycle, was it officially ended the Jhagut/T'lan Imass war(s), which has been a backdrop since GOTM. With a fantastic 4 Founding Races callback.

Only thing unresolved would be Karsa, which we know SE will be coming back to.
IMO The SE Kharkanas trilogy and ICE's supposed Birth of the Empire trilogy are nices-to-haves but not essentials like the Karsa closure.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 21 August 2014 - 02:02 PM

[Saitama]

I have no major complaints on how ICE resolved SE's plot points, but I have some on how he resolved (or didn't resolve) his own. A 'neat little epilogue' isn't always needed, but it would be nice for the last book in the series to bring some sort of closure. The two most prominent parties in the series (Kyle and the Crimsong Guard) came to Assail, learned a little about themselves and then went to do business elsewhere. Rather underwhelming. It feels less like 'the last book in the series' and more like a 'ICE decides to write something else'.

[champ]

Any resolution on Tayschrenn or is he going back to SE?!

[Abyss]

champ, on 21 August 2014 - 02:38 PM, said:

Any resolution on Tayschrenn or is he going back to SE?!

Not a sniff of him.
No idea whether he'll appear in SE's work.

[Gorgon]

Abyss did you say upthreads that Kyle is ruthan gudds sp? Father? If so how does that work age wise

[Abyss]

Gorgon, on 21 August 2014 - 04:16 PM, said:

Abyss did you say upthreads that Kyle is ruthan gudds sp? Father? If so how does that work age wise

It's complicated. There was sex involved. And, time travel.

Also, lies.

[flea]

Finished last night. A few thoughts.

This is Esslemont's best book, and by a large stretch. In most of the other books I was driven by a thirst for more information about the world, but I found much of SW, RotCG, OST and BaB to be slogs -- I really struggled to stay interested. There were elements of each I enjoyed, to be sure, but not really that much. One problem in this and all the books, imho, is too many story lines in too few pages, leaving story lines and characters too fragmented. It would be interesting to do a comparison of the number of plot lines in SE's books. This is the first time I enjoyed all of them.

ICE can tell a good tale, and Assail is his most coherent book. It might have to do with the setting, mostly water and ice, which simplifies what we need to "see." I think the POVs were clear, and he avoided his annoying habit of waiting too long for us to know whose POV we were reading. I think this book represents a growth in his ability to establish character.

I think ICE did a fine job of defining who he is as a writer. He kicks ass at portraying action, something we saw already in RotCG. Philosophical musings are not his strength, which means he will always suffer in comparisons to SE at this site, understandably, since our obsession with SE's approach to writing says more about our preference for a style and content that appeals to a small minority fantasy readers. SE also excels with pathos, but in this novel ICE moved me with his characters.

Assail reminds me more of a Glen Cook novel, which is not a criticism at all. Yet, at the end of the book I came up with a theme that has certainly been present in the entire series, but only now see: each culture, and each sentient species, contains the seeds of it's own destruction. A corollary to this is almost any idea taken to it's logical end becomes a thing of horror.

[theocean]

blackzoid, on 21 August 2014 - 02:02 PM, said:

The Crimson Guard was probably the mainish theme of the ICE books I think.
But what Assail did as an "epilogue" to the whole Malazan cycle, was it officially ended the Jhagut/T'lan Imass war(s), which has been a backdrop since GOTM. With a fantastic 4 Founding Races callback.

Only thing unresolved would be Karsa, which we know SE will be coming back to.
IMO The SE Kharkanas trilogy and ICE's supposed Birth of the Empire trilogy are nices-to-haves but not essentials like the Karsa closure.

I still think there is a lot of things left unresolved. I want to know more about Quick Ben, need to know what is up with the Fokrul, need to know what the hell traveller is. I agree the ending of the huge fued is a giant resolution in the world of malazan, but this series could easily go on forever and leave plenty unresolved. I need to see a QB vs Tay showdown. Need to see what the Tian and CG do from here. Why did the second hate Skinner so much. What are the seguleh up to these days. How have the moranth been holding up. Whats big bad brood up to. This series is capable of never ending.

[kempster]

Hocknose, on 16 August 2014 - 12:32 PM, said:

100% Spinnock in my opinion

"I would travel to Coral,' Jethiss answered. 'There is a modest barrow there I would pay my respects to. A good friend. Many evenings we spent together playing Kef Tanar."

We know Spinnock played Kef Tanar in Coral with Seerdomin, Seerdomin dies and had a small barrow was raised for him.

In my opinion ICE (through Fisher) was playing with us, making us think it could be Anomander.

Sorry that I do not have access right now to my older Malazan books to delve in them for the proper amount of research..... I am going on memory here mostly.... so if I misremember.... don't be too harsh.

You are of course right about Spinnock and Seerdomin..... as are all the others, BUT...... If I am not mistaken..... Rake knew Itkovian (aka the redeemer) from MOI....... for whom the barrow in Coral was actually for. Also from malazan wiki..... Itkovian ascended to become the Redeemer, a god worshipped by the humans of Black Coral. With the death of Anomander Rake, the Redeemer learned the true depth of his role and, with Mother Dark, destroyed the Dying God.

This shows another link with MD and Rake. Furthermore..... I would say that there is the possibility that (follow me for just a second).... that if this is Rake (Jethiss) talking.... he could be talking about the Redeemers Barrow in the first sentence.... "There is a modest barrow there I would pay my respects to." and then talking about his good friend Spinnock in the second and third....... "A good friend. Many evenings we spent together playing Kef Tanar." As in..... a modest barrow and a good friend.... or maybe Spinnock did die with the Shake and was buried in Coral.... I don't know. I do know that those 3 quoted sentences used to justify Jethiss being Spinnock are no where near as ironclad as some here believe them to be.

Here is Spinnock thinking to himself about Rake in TTH........ Life like Kef Tanar, this skipping across paths. He does it so well, this man whom I have never defeated in our tabletop wars, not in ten thousand years. But I can stay with you, Lord, at least this far.


I freely admit that part of the reason that I am in the Rake camp for who Jethiss actually is is because.... I want it to be Rake..... but I think there are some pretty good reasons for it in the literature as well.

Cheers!!!!!!!!!

This post has been edited by kempster: 22 August 2014 - 10:20 AM

[worry]

The Redeemer doesn't have a modest barrow. Nor does Whiskeyjack for that matter (another person Rake might visit). However it could be said that both Seerdomin and Rake do have modest barrows, and Spinnock played Kef Tanar with both. He'd be the most likely to visit either one of those (though most likely Seerdomin).

[Andorion]

worry, on 22 August 2014 - 10:39 AM, said:

The Redeemer doesn't have a modest barrow. Nor does Whiskeyjack for that matter (another person Rake might visit). However it could be said that both Seerdomin and Rake do have modest barrows, and Spinnock played Kef Tanar with both. He'd be the most likely to visit either one of those (though most likely Seerdomin).

Its Seerdomins barrow. Rake's is outside Darujhistan.

[Andorion]

theocean, on 21 August 2014 - 06:40 PM, said:

blackzoid, on 21 August 2014 - 02:02 PM, said:

The Crimson Guard was probably the mainish theme of the ICE books I think.
But what Assail did as an "epilogue" to the whole Malazan cycle, was it officially ended the Jhagut/T'lan Imass war(s), which has been a backdrop since GOTM. With a fantastic 4 Founding Races callback.

Only thing unresolved would be Karsa, which we know SE will be coming back to.
IMO The SE Kharkanas trilogy and ICE's supposed Birth of the Empire trilogy are nices-to-haves but not essentials like the Karsa closure.

I still think there is a lot of things left unresolved. I want to know more about Quick Ben, need to know what is up with the Fokrul, need to know what the hell traveller is. I agree the ending of the huge fued is a giant resolution in the world of malazan, but this series could easily go on forever and leave plenty unresolved. I need to see a QB vs Tay showdown. Need to see what the Tian and CG do from here. Why did the second hate Skinner so much. What are the seguleh up to these days. How have the moranth been holding up. Whats big bad brood up to. This series is capable of never ending.

Gonna try for a few of the above, but fair warning, SPOILERS running all over the place.



1. Everybody wants to know more about QB, but I think, that is have a hunch that the Kharkanas trilogy might help out there.
2. Forkrul have a superiority complex along with extreme OCD, but thankfully the last big number of them seems to be bundled up in Assail, while Hood and co. took out the rogues in TCG.
3. Traveller is Dassem Ultor, ex-First Sword of the Empire, also reluctantly Dessambrae Lord of tragedy, also currently the First Seguleh, wielder of Grief/Vengeance and all-round badass.
4. There probably won't be a QB vs Tay showdown if I read what Tay became correctly.

[kempster]

worry, on 22 August 2014 - 10:39 AM, said:

The Redeemer doesn't have a modest barrow. Nor does Whiskeyjack for that matter (another person Rake might visit). However it could be said that both Seerdomin and Rake do have modest barrows, and Spinnock played Kef Tanar with both. He'd be the most likely to visit either one of those (though most likely Seerdomin).

Worry.... While the Barrow for the redeemer was large in size.... it sure as hell wasn't fancy... for a God... that could be seen as modest..... Also... it would be just like Rake to call it a modest barrow regardless of size.... compared to the individual it housed.


Could Jethis be Spinnock?... well he and the beknighted did play Kef Tanar and they were friendly, but he was also reporting to Rake about their games because of Rake's interest in the Redeemer which was in no small part due to the respect Rake had for the man Itkovian. And Spinock had played the game with Rake for Thousands of years.


finally, if I remember correctly, Rake was interred outside of Darujistan, not Black Coral and I can't remember any mention of a barrow for Seerdomin aka the Beknighted. Not saying one couldn't have been erected for him at some point.....

[theocean]

Andorion, on 22 August 2014 - 11:52 AM, said:

theocean, on 21 August 2014 - 06:40 PM, said:

blackzoid, on 21 August 2014 - 02:02 PM, said:

The Crimson Guard was probably the mainish theme of the ICE books I think.
But what Assail did as an "epilogue" to the whole Malazan cycle, was it officially ended the Jhagut/T'lan Imass war(s), which has been a backdrop since GOTM. With a fantastic 4 Founding Races callback.

Only thing unresolved would be Karsa, which we know SE will be coming back to.
IMO The SE Kharkanas trilogy and ICE's supposed Birth of the Empire trilogy are nices-to-haves but not essentials like the Karsa closure.

I still think there is a lot of things left unresolved. I want to know more about Quick Ben, need to know what is up with the Fokrul, need to know what the hell traveller is. I agree the ending of the huge fued is a giant resolution in the world of malazan, but this series could easily go on forever and leave plenty unresolved. I need to see a QB vs Tay showdown. Need to see what the Tian and CG do from here. Why did the second hate Skinner so much. What are the seguleh up to these days. How have the moranth been holding up. Whats big bad brood up to. This series is capable of never ending.

Gonna try for a few of the above, but fair warning, SPOILERS running all over the place.



1. Everybody wants to know more about QB, but I think, that is have a hunch that the Kharkanas trilogy might help out there.
2. Forkrul have a superiority complex along with extreme OCD, but thankfully the last big number of them seems to be bundled up in Assail, while Hood and co. took out the rogues in TCG.
3. Traveller is Dassem Ultor, ex-First Sword of the Empire, also reluctantly Dessambrae Lord of tragedy, also currently the First Seguleh, wielder of Grief/Vengeance and all-round badass.
4. There probably won't be a QB vs Tay showdown if I read what Tay became correctly.

Im sorry i didnt mean traveller i meant Edgewalker... so many names to keep in line.
I just want to see more about the Fokrul and would love to see someone travel to assail and battle their last remaining forces, just cause i think it would be a great battle, give me karsa and his army VS the Fokrul.
I doubt Tay will be battling QB either, but i just want to see QB expose his true abilities and power, we always catch glimpses and i feel like he then always downplays how strong his abilities actually are.

Also, when i first read about visiting the barrow i thought of Itkovians too, but like someone else said i dont think a barrow infused with the magic of Tellan could be consided a modest barrow in any way.

[Andorion]

theocean, on 22 August 2014 - 12:59 PM, said:

Andorion, on 22 August 2014 - 11:52 AM, said:

theocean, on 21 August 2014 - 06:40 PM, said:

blackzoid, on 21 August 2014 - 02:02 PM, said:

The Crimson Guard was probably the mainish theme of the ICE books I think.
But what Assail did as an "epilogue" to the whole Malazan cycle, was it officially ended the Jhagut/T'lan Imass war(s), which has been a backdrop since GOTM. With a fantastic 4 Founding Races callback.

Only thing unresolved would be Karsa, which we know SE will be coming back to.
IMO The SE Kharkanas trilogy and ICE's supposed Birth of the Empire trilogy are nices-to-haves but not essentials like the Karsa closure.

I still think there is a lot of things left unresolved. I want to know more about Quick Ben, need to know what is up with the Fokrul, need to know what the hell traveller is. I agree the ending of the huge fued is a giant resolution in the world of malazan, but this series could easily go on forever and leave plenty unresolved. I need to see a QB vs Tay showdown. Need to see what the Tian and CG do from here. Why did the second hate Skinner so much. What are the seguleh up to these days. How have the moranth been holding up. Whats big bad brood up to. This series is capable of never ending.

Gonna try for a few of the above, but fair warning, SPOILERS running all over the place.



1. Everybody wants to know more about QB, but I think, that is have a hunch that the Kharkanas trilogy might help out there.
2. Forkrul have a superiority complex along with extreme OCD, but thankfully the last big number of them seems to be bundled up in Assail, while Hood and co. took out the rogues in TCG.
3. Traveller is Dassem Ultor, ex-First Sword of the Empire, also reluctantly Dessambrae Lord of tragedy, also currently the First Seguleh, wielder of Grief/Vengeance and all-round badass.
4. There probably won't be a QB vs Tay showdown if I read what Tay became correctly.

Im sorry i didnt mean traveller i meant Edgewalker... so many names to keep in line.
I just want to see more about the Fokrul and would love to see someone travel to assail and battle their last remaining forces, just cause i think it would be a great battle, give me karsa and his army VS the Fokrul.
I doubt Tay will be battling QB either, but i just want to see QB expose his true abilities and power, we always catch glimpses and i feel like he then always downplays how strong his abilities actually are.

Also, when i first read about visiting the barrow i thought of Itkovians too, but like someone else said i dont think a barrow infused with the magic of Tellan could be consided a modest barrow in any way.

I think we got a fair idea about how stong QB is when stood upto Icarium,.

[Andorion]

Now that we know thatr the Stormriders are waliens, does this explain why they were so fanatically eager to get the CG pieces in Korel?

Maybe like the jade giants they too are a part of the CG world, and so

1. They want to liberate his tortured body and set him free.

2. They really really hate him and want to hack his pieces into smaller pieces.

[Saitama]

Didn't they start some kind of trouble back in the Night of Knives?
Seems that they are drawn by certain powers

[Andorion]

Second Sword, on 22 August 2014 - 05:34 PM, said:

Didn't they start some kind of trouble back in the Night of Knives?
Seems that they are drawn by certain powers

Yeah I never really figured out why they wanted to attack Malaz in NoK. If they were attracted to just power though, they would have invaded Kolanse in TCG, cause that was Elder God Reunion, with superpowered FA and Jaghut on the side.