[Coltainer]

Andorion, on 24 August 2014 - 04:10 AM, said:

Firstly, I believe there has been an extended discussion already about how the representave of the Imass distorted the truth earlier to further her own ends. The entire 'human tyrant' thing is more a bluff than anything else.

O damn that Fokrul Assail for getting me extremely excited. I honestly thought there was a Rhulad of Humans with a bad ass sword, with a huge army, and a city with bad ass huge walls. Wasnt expecting the small settlements of semi super powerful humans, settlements of beligerent crazy humans, a old lady Jaghut, and a bunch of sleeping Forkrul Assail,.

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The re-unleashing of Omtose Phellack, the assault on a super-glacier by a stream of Cussers, the re-meeting of the four founding races, something that has only been alluded to ever, the Assail giving of a sword to Jethiss, did not strike you as a event rich ending?

Shooting a glacier of ice with cussers wasnt that great. Who decided those people should be represented for the four races lol? If I was about to be eviscerated by a Fokrul Assail I would also agree to peace. Then come back 2 weeks later with a bridgeburner squad and throw some cussers at them, or send quick ben and kalam after them.
As to the sword, was that suppose to be exciting?

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I am truly puzzled about your last comment. There are hundreds of discussion threads everywhere on practically every conceivable topic. This post you have made is in one of the two major Assail discussion threads. If you have some specific stuff you want to discuss why not open your own thread?

I am very lazy and I expected this sub thread to be full of more threads already.

This post has been edited by Coltainer: 24 August 2014 - 11:56 PM

[Abyss]

Coltainer, on 24 August 2014 - 11:51 PM, said:

Shooting a glacier of ice with cussers wasnt that great.

You can go now.

[Khazduk]

Finished last week, a few random thoughts after trying to get up to speed here.

Jethiss is in all likelyhood Spinnock. Just like Fisher I guess we all on one level wants him to be Anomander, but on the other hand we wouldn't want that since that would render his sacrifice pointless. Would render so much emotional and other epicness null and void. But as has been pointed out, but not yet investigated, the definite answer probably lies in "who would be worthy of a sword made of his own arm?" But with barrows and Kef games and everything, the available facts point to 98 % Spinnock, imho.

Positively surprised by the amount of closure the ending gave while leaving everything well enough open for things to keep happening and the world moving on, as it always does. And while the number of PoV:s probably could have been reduced (if, for example Reuth, isn't a set up for later adventures), the writing is markedly better than in BaB. Not a single cyclopean, but a gargantuan, glacier, yay.

And as to the continent not presenting a bigger challenge than a proverbial hike in the woods while being touted as the most badassdangerousplaceintheuniverse... well, isn't it the K-man himself who says that "it's to keep people away, obviously"?

But surely, I can't have been the only seeing already in BaB that the Vow had made the CGRD undead? For me it was one of the major points of their storyline in BaB. And I'd never make any claims to be as smart as Cowl.

Edit: spleling

This post has been edited by Khazduk: 25 August 2014 - 09:10 AM

[Saitama]

Coltainer, on 24 August 2014 - 11:51 PM, said:

As to the sword, was that suppose to be exciting?

Exactly. In fact, the whole Jethiss/sword storyline did nothing for me. It just seemed like an excuse for a completely unnecessary 'who is Jethiss?' enigma. No offence but he hasn't got a fraction of Rake's charisma. Is the quiet girl sitting next to me on a bus the famous actress Scarlett Johansson? Safe to say, she probably is not.

Why a sword and a new 'knight'? Why not call back Silchas, who has his own sword already? Or maybe make peace with Draconus, however hard that may be for MD. Why the FA? It's the first time I've heard about them being good blacksmiths while Andii have a history of forging unmatched blades. Moreover, don't they have Withal in Kharkanas? I thought he survived and if he did, the Andii have the guy that made Rhulad's sword... doesn't make any sense.

[blackzoid]

It is a good point that The Tiste Andii have a Son of Darkness in Silchas Ruin and a bunch of other Soletaken like Nimander.
And that Draconus may be hanging around and would probably protect them too. But I guess its always good to have extra protection.

[Saitama]

blackzoid, on 25 August 2014 - 10:27 AM, said:

But I guess its always good to have extra protection.

Yes, it's always a smart choice but how on earth did they come up with the idea of asking FA?

This post has been edited by Second Sword: 25 August 2014 - 01:03 PM

[Abyss]

Khazduk, on 25 August 2014 - 09:08 AM, said:

.... And while the number of PoV:s probably could have been reduced (if, for example Reuth, isn't a set up for later adventures)...

I vacillate about Reuth. There was nothing mindblowing about him as a character, but his perspective on the events around him was not boring and never felt like a waste. Also, i really enjoyed the nautical elements and he was a big part of that.

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And as to the continent not presenting a bigger challenge than a proverbial hike in the woods while being touted as the most badassdangerousplaceintheuniverse... well, isn't it the K-man himself who says that "it's to keep people away, obviously"?

EXACTLY.
But as with Coltaine's Fall, no big fight at the end of HoC, Trull being stabbed in the back, Laseen a whole lot, and any number of other things, some readers can't separate what they wanted from what they got enough to assess what they got as anything but lacking.

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But surely, I can't have been the only seeing already in BaB that the Vow had made the CGRD undead? For me it was one of the major points of their storyline in BaB. And I'd never make any claims to be as smart as Cowl.

That and the Imass analogy have been floating around the forum since RCG. BnB actually complicated things when Smoky rematerialized long enough to save Shimmer then went back to being Brethren. Part of the 'fun' of the revel;ation is that they aren't Imass... they're something very different... undead, immortal, struggling to stay attached to the world by a vow that doesn't really mean anything any longer yes, but also capable of returning to their bodies, of holding onto their humanity better than the rotting Imass ever could.

Second Sword, on 25 August 2014 - 10:08 AM, said:

Coltainer, on 24 August 2014 - 11:51 PM, said:

As to the sword, was that suppose to be exciting?

Exactly. In fact, the whole Jethiss/sword storyline did nothing for me. It just seemed like an excuse for a completely unnecessary 'who is Jethiss?' enigma. No offence but he hasn't got a fraction of Rake's charisma. Is the quiet girl sitting next to me on a bus the famous actress Scarlett Johansson? Safe to say, she probably is not.

Why a sword and a new 'knight'? Why not call back Silchas, who has his own sword already? Or maybe make peace with Draconus, however hard that may be for MD. Why the FA? It's the first time I've heard about them being good blacksmiths while Andii have a history of forging unmatched blades. Moreover, don't they have Withal in Kharkanas? I thought he survived and if he did, the Andii have the guy that made Rhulad's sword... doesn't make any sense.

blackzoid, on 25 August 2014 - 10:27 AM, said:

It is a good point that The Tiste Andii have a Son of Darkness in Silchas Ruin and a bunch of other Soletaken like Nimander.
And that Draconus may be hanging around and would probably protect them too. But I guess its always good to have extra protection.

Draconus isn't Andii, and he and Silchas are both Draconic... they split their aspect with Chaos and possibly other things like 'Night' which has a human element. Nimander is draconic and so are most of his inner circle for that matter. Other than Clip, who was an asshat even before the Dying God messed with him, the Andii have been without a 'pure' champion in a very long time.

Don't forget that Rake and Silch going draconic was to spite or in spite of Mommy D, not because of her, and Draconus was never Andii or even worshiped by them as far as we know.

In that sense, having a 'true' son of darkness as a champion is totally appropriate.

Second Sword, on 25 August 2014 - 10:36 AM, said:

blackzoid, on 25 August 2014 - 10:27 AM, said:

But I guess its always good to have extra protection.

Yes, it's always a smart choice but how on earth did they come up with the idea of asking FA?

....because nothing is ever simple and the FA are a truly alien race with their own weird sense of whatever it is they do... call it justice. For Jethiss to be the Champion/Knight/Son of Darkess that can truly stand on level with draconic soletaken and gods and ascendents and all the other powerhouses likely to be a problem for the entire Andii race, he needed a serious weapon, and it's a long established element in these books that nothing comes without sacrifice. So they (presumably) gave him a weapon that can stand with things like Vengeance/Grief, the Whiteblade and presumably Dragnipur without all the baggage... to paraphrase a wise man, if on his journey he should encounter a god, the god will be cut.

As for asking the FA, well, if we accept that MOD sent Jethiss to Assail for a reason, then they are the most powerful resource available to give him what he needed.

Plus, FFS... he's a resurrected one-armed Andii master swordsman and mage with a magic sword made out of his own arm bones... if that doesn't make a reader want to know and read more...

[Saitama]

Abyss, on 25 August 2014 - 01:38 PM, said:

some readers can't separate what they wanted from what they got enough to assess what they got as anything but lacking.

The problem is that what we wanted was for the story to be consistent with the lore. Nothing bad with a small twist now and there to add some realism, but Assail is a catfish - the pictures looked great but what showed up on a date lacks teeth.

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Draconus isn't Andii, and he and Silchas are both Draconic...

So was Rake. And he was the one that ended all that everybody else couldn't. So is Nimander, and it would be hard to find a better leader. Kinda judgemental for a woman who herself jumped into chaos to become godess. Moreover, there is a Hust sword lying somewhere in the vicinity, its basically a symbol of the Andii history and an anti-draconic weapon to boot. But no, let's ask some cave dwellers to make us something. So MD obtains a '100% pure Andii' sword by hiring subcontractors from a 3rd world country to make it

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Plus, FFS... he's a resurrected one-armed Andii master swordsman and mage with a magic sword made out of his own arm bones... if that doesn't make a reader want to know and read more...

Not really. The Boner Sword is just that - a blade made from a bone. If it had a different, more primal origin I could speculate about it's powers or properties. Bones? They are hard. Sure, with time we will see what kind of magical enhancement it has. But for the moment, Kyle's or Draconus' swords seem more powerful. The Whiteblade also slices bones On the other hand, it always bugged me how easily Osserc parted with his seemingly unmatched blade - maybe it runs on batteries and is about to run out of power. Bones at least don't need batteries

[Abyss]

Second Sword, on 25 August 2014 - 02:58 PM, said:

Abyss, on 25 August 2014 - 01:38 PM, said:

some readers can't separate what they wanted from what they got enough to assess what they got as anything but lacking.

The problem is that what we wanted was for the story to be consistent with the lore. Nothing bad with a small twist now and there to add some realism, but Assail is a catfish - the pictures looked great but what showed up on a date lacks teeth.

Hey it's your opinion and you're entitled to it. But lore is just that.

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Draconus isn't Andii, and he and Silchas are both Draconic...

So was Rake. And he was the one that ended all that everybody else couldn't. So is Nimander, and it would be hard to find a better leader. Kinda judgemental for a woman who herself jumped into chaos to become godess. Moreover, there is a Hust sword lying somewhere in the vicinity, its basically a symbol of the Andii history and an anti-draconic weapon to boot. But no, let's ask some cave dwellers to make us something. So MD obtains a '100% pure Andii' sword by hiring subcontractors from a 3rd world country to make it

As mentioned, Rake's draconic nature was a point of separation from MD, not empowerment. Yes, he did great things with that power, but that isn't the point.
MD was empowered by Draconus, not Chaos.

Those cave dwellers are powerful enough to clear the continent of life if they so chose. The group of them over in TCG almost killed the world.

Also, outsourcing is the way of the future. Deal with it.

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Plus, FFS... he's a resurrected one-armed Andii master swordsman and mage with a magic sword made out of his own arm bones... if that doesn't make a reader want to know and read more...

Not really. The Boner Sword is just that - a blade made from a bone. If it had a different, more primal origin I could speculate about it's powers or properties. Bones? They are hard. Sure, with time we will see what kind of magical enhancement it has. But for the moment, Kyle's or Draconus' swords seem more powerful. The Whiteblade also slices bones On the other hand, it always bugged me how easily Osserc parted with his seemingly unmatched blade - maybe it runs on batteries and is about to run out of power. Bones at least don't need batteries

True we don't know anything, but that's the point. It's a magic weapon intended to arm (pun intended) a champion. I doubt it's low grade anything.

Osserc's sword is a question mark. That dust devil spirit told Kyle it was Chaos aspected, and someone suggested it was older than Osserc's time with it.

[Saitama]

Abyss, on 25 August 2014 - 03:43 PM, said:

As mentioned, Rake's draconic nature was a point of separation from MD, not empowerment.

It was a reaction to a crisis in leadership. If that scene in TTH is true, at this point MD already decided to leave Andii for Liosan. Seeking strength in crisis is exactly what MD is looking for in dealing with FA for a sword. So she shouldn't judge.

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Those cave dwellers are powerful enough to clear the continent of life if they so chose. The group of them over in TCG almost killed the world.

Yes, but what bothers me is that they have no history of making/fighting with weapons(at least that that I know of) and suddenly they offer a free sword to their (past) enemy. Not a big issue, but it feels forced.

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True we don't know anything, but that's the point.

I like hints, suggestions and insinuations. Riddles like 'guess what I have in my pocket' do nothing for me. Especially if the author has a habit (IMHO, of course) of underdelivering.

The Whiteblade is a different issue. Personally, I hate it - it seems to be a stupidly OP, unorginal sword without any serious drawbacks simply given to Kyle by some watery tart shiny tart. However, if there is a weapon able to block it then it becomes fairly useless (if it is the only power it has). In any case, speculation like this is what makes it interesting for me.

[Andorion]

Second Sword, on 25 August 2014 - 04:22 PM, said:

Abyss, on 25 August 2014 - 03:43 PM, said:

As mentioned, Rake's draconic nature was a point of separation from MD, not empowerment.

It was a reaction to a crisis in leadership. If that scene in TTH is true, at this point MD already decided to leave Andii for Liosan. Seeking strength in crisis is exactly what MD is looking for in dealing with FA for a sword. So she shouldn't judge.

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Those cave dwellers are powerful enough to clear the continent of life if they so chose. The group of them over in TCG almost killed the world.

Yes, but what bothers me is that they have no history of making/fighting with weapons(at least that that I know of) and suddenly they offer a free sword to their (past) enemy. Not a big issue, but it feels forced.

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True we don't know anything, but that's the point.

I like hints, suggestions and insinuations. Riddles like 'guess what I have in my pocket' do nothing for me. Especially if the author has a habit (IMHO, of course) of underdelivering.

The Whiteblade is a different issue. Personally, I hate it - it seems to be a stupidly OP, unorginal sword without any serious drawbacks simply given to Kyle by some watery tart shiny tart. However, if there is a weapon able to block it then it becomes fairly useless (if it is the only power it has). In any case, speculation like this is what makes it interesting for me.

1. Regarding MD, Andii, Liosan, I somehow think we should defer conclusions/judgements, till Fall of light at least, because judging by the way the Kharkanas trilogy is shaping up a lot of pre-conceived notions are going to be blown up.
2. As for choosing the FA to make a new weapon, I admit they would not have been my first idea either, but consider, if there is some reason stopping the Andii from making a suitably powerful weapon of their own, who do they go to? The Liosan hate their guts, the Edur hate their guts, the Jaghut couldn't care less, human smithery is still human smithery, not really Son of Darkness level. Apart from getting Karsa to rip out another pillar of stone, which I am pretty sure would be a bit tough to wield in battle, the FA are kind of the only choice. Also they do have a track record of weaponizing artifacts as witness the TCG ritual where they were going to cleanse the world using Kaminsods heart.
3. As for the Whiteblade, throughout Assail I basically got the vibe that Kyle is a jedi with a lightsaber, wading through Sithland, because the defining characterestics of a lightsaber and the Whiteblade are identical, they glow, they cut everything and their user can immediately be identified by all.

As to earlier questions about why Osserc would hand over said lightsaber to Kyle I would like to once again say what I have said somewhere else. ICE's Osserc is nuts. His idea of a worthwhile pursuit was to headbutt an Azath. He spent 80% of B&B in a staring contest with Gothos. His actions don't have to make sense.

[Saitama]

2. What about Withal for blacksmith and/or Yedan Derryg's Hust sword as the sword/base for another? They are both at hand. I would say that the guy who forged CG's cursed blade is a first rate candidate. FA lack any accomplishements in this field, so choosing them is... unexpected.

3. Kyle a jedi - agreed 100%. Osserc's deed not only makes no sense - he gave up something so powerful to a human whom he barely knows - it's pretty stupid. I would like some more insight into that. And I hate nuts Osserc because it's hard for me to accept that this lunatic could have been Rake's rival.

This post has been edited by Second Sword: 25 August 2014 - 06:11 PM

[Abyss]

2. - 'i can think of better options' is only a valid critique for Star Wars films. If Withal was just standing around with a perfect forge and all the hust blade ingredients and a contract with Mommy D to provide her new reborn in darkness champion with the perfect weapon with no sacrifice whatsoever, i'm sure Jeths would have washed up in his bathtub instead of on Assail.


3. I'm wondering now whether Osserc just took advantage of the situation to get rid of a sword he didn't want any longer, and Kyle was just a convenient sucker. The Chaos angle isn't strange.. Ossi is draconic after all and antithetic to Rake who was opposed to Chaos.

[Saitama]

Abyss, on 25 August 2014 - 06:26 PM, said:

2. - 'i can think of better options' is only a valid critique for Star Wars films. If Withal was just standing around with a perfect forge and all the hust blade ingredients and a contract with Mommy D to provide her new reborn in darkness champion with the perfect weapon with no sacrifice whatsoever, i'm sure Jeths would have washed up in his bathtub instead of on Assail.

Well, Kharkanas has probably a better forge than those FA caves anyway. There are different kinds of sacrifices and they are not always necessary beforehand (Anomander's first sword). Besides, If MD want's to have a special Andii blade she could use the Hust/re-forged Hust and bless this one for a change.
'I can think of more internally consistent option' is still a valid critique.

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3. I'm wondering now whether Osserc just took advantage of the situation to get rid of a sword he didn't want any longer, and Kyle was just a convenient sucker. The Chaos angle isn't strange.. Ossi is draconic after all and antithetic to Rake who was opposed to Chaos.

I like the sucker angle because then at least it has some deeper meaning behind it. And Osserc may be chaotic but most of his actions have a certain long-term aim (gaining knowledge). I always thought that the whole blade for a blade thing was way too simple since the whiteblade is so powerful.

[worry]

I'm pretty sure all the hinting about Whiteblade is that it's literally made of dragon (bone or whatever). It's Chaotic, it's white, it's ancient, it's distinctly not made of metal.

And clearly Osserc gave it to Kyle specifically to not give it to L'oric. Mean dad!

[Abyss]

worry, on 25 August 2014 - 07:53 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure all the hinting about Whiteblade is that it's literally made of dragon (bone or whatever). It's Chaotic, it's white, it's ancient, it's distinctly not made of metal.

Anyone remember what color those standing sheets of dragon blood that trapped wraiths in MT were?

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Forget about his sword for a moment. The sword seems to be a red herring anyway (albeit a pretty badass one) , meant to distract us so we didn't think about Ereko's amber stone. Its doubtful that the FA would have negotiated anything even half-good if they didn't harbor some kind of respect for the Thel Akai and their "token" appearance. Hate Kyle all you want, judge his weapon as ridiculously powerful (it is, but it fits in with the universe's rules re: magic so its allowed.), say that he bored the shit out of you. If that motherfucker didn't pick up ereko's stone back in RotCG, everyone dies at the end.

And I'm sorry but this conversation got ridiculous with the idea of using YD's Hust blade to make a copy of it for Mother Dark's champion. Seriously? Like it's a house key or something?! That's not how Hust blades are made at all. Making the sword out of the wielder's bone is perfect poetic justice, a different aspect of the justice we've heard of numerous times regarding the FA. we've never even seen the Bone sword in action, so we have no idea of its efficacy.

[worry]

Hmm, I don't remember. I think the ones in Gothos's hut in TTH were obsidian black, but that might just be my preconceived dragon notions talking.

On another note, I think those wondering why Jethiss went to the FA for his sword are forgetting/ignoring the fact that he represented the Tiste in the new Founding. So he had at least a dual purpose in being there. The new sword may even be forged in light of that.

[The Old Guard]

worry, on 25 August 2014 - 09:30 PM, said:

Hmm, I don't remember. I think the ones in Gothos's hut in TTH were obsidian black, but that might just be my preconceived dragon notions talking.

On another note, I think those wondering why Jethiss went to the FA for his sword are forgetting/ignoring the fact that he represented the Tiste in the new Founding. So he had at least a dual purpose in being there. The new sword may even be forged in light of that.

The thing is: Assail takes place after B&B, so Kaminsod is already gone and we have live Imass, KCCM and pureblood Jaghut on Kolanse. So why do the Andii have to be in the new Founding?

Technically they could return to Kharkanas and not be forced to be in exile anymore. So are the KCCM going to be left out?

Thus, the question is: why did the Andii absolutely need to be there with a champion? The sword is but a consequence of that fact.

Also, why do you say that Jethiss is a "pure Andii Champion"? The fact that he lost his memory, coupled with the white streaks in his hair, hints at a reinvigorating swim in the Vitr. Rake's white hair were dubbed "The Mane Of Chaos" for a reason, so it should only be natural to assume that an Andii with white streaks has been touched by Chaos, however briefly.

On a side note: the Whiteblade's color was often described as "ivory" which, in our world, is an elephant bone. So the notion that the blade is carved from the bones of an Eleint makes sense.

This post has been edited by The Old Guard: 25 August 2014 - 10:27 PM

[worry]

I didn't say anything about a "pure Andii champion."

Re: the main question though: The Tiste didn't have to be there, of course. MD wanted a representative to be there. There is absolutely no way they are retreating to Karkhanas. They are part of the world. It's not even about exile anymore. It's a new era. That's part of Rake's sacrifice/gift: a beginning of the end of stagnation.