[Saitama]

Shadowthrone makes a deal with CG/Riders to provide a diversion, Malaz mages are occupied so he has easier access to the deadhouse? Feels rather weak

[theocean]

Andorion, on 22 August 2014 - 05:26 PM, said:

theocean, on 22 August 2014 - 12:59 PM, said:

Andorion, on 22 August 2014 - 11:52 AM, said:

theocean, on 21 August 2014 - 06:40 PM, said:

blackzoid, on 21 August 2014 - 02:02 PM, said:

The Crimson Guard was probably the mainish theme of the ICE books I think.
But what Assail did as an "epilogue" to the whole Malazan cycle, was it officially ended the Jhagut/T'lan Imass war(s), which has been a backdrop since GOTM. With a fantastic 4 Founding Races callback.

Only thing unresolved would be Karsa, which we know SE will be coming back to.
IMO The SE Kharkanas trilogy and ICE's supposed Birth of the Empire trilogy are nices-to-haves but not essentials like the Karsa closure.

I still think there is a lot of things left unresolved. I want to know more about Quick Ben, need to know what is up with the Fokrul, need to know what the hell traveller is. I agree the ending of the huge fued is a giant resolution in the world of malazan, but this series could easily go on forever and leave plenty unresolved. I need to see a QB vs Tay showdown. Need to see what the Tian and CG do from here. Why did the second hate Skinner so much. What are the seguleh up to these days. How have the moranth been holding up. Whats big bad brood up to. This series is capable of never ending.

Gonna try for a few of the above, but fair warning, SPOILERS running all over the place.



1. Everybody wants to know more about QB, but I think, that is have a hunch that the Kharkanas trilogy might help out there.
2. Forkrul have a superiority complex along with extreme OCD, but thankfully the last big number of them seems to be bundled up in Assail, while Hood and co. took out the rogues in TCG.
3. Traveller is Dassem Ultor, ex-First Sword of the Empire, also reluctantly Dessambrae Lord of tragedy, also currently the First Seguleh, wielder of Grief/Vengeance and all-round badass.
4. There probably won't be a QB vs Tay showdown if I read what Tay became correctly.

Im sorry i didnt mean traveller i meant Edgewalker... so many names to keep in line.
I just want to see more about the Fokrul and would love to see someone travel to assail and battle their last remaining forces, just cause i think it would be a great battle, give me karsa and his army VS the Fokrul.
I doubt Tay will be battling QB either, but i just want to see QB expose his true abilities and power, we always catch glimpses and i feel like he then always downplays how strong his abilities actually are.

Also, when i first read about visiting the barrow i thought of Itkovians too, but like someone else said i dont think a barrow infused with the magic of Tellan could be consided a modest barrow in any way.

I think we got a fair idea about how stong QB is when stood upto Icarium,.

Yea but that was more of a hold at bay as much as possible, basically slow him down for a bit of time. Just seeing the true strength of TAY revealed in more recent books leaves me wondering who the GOAT warren man is in the game.

[Mentalist]

Andorion, on 22 August 2014 - 05:53 PM, said:

Second Sword, on 22 August 2014 - 05:34 PM, said:

Didn't they start some kind of trouble back in the Night of Knives?
Seems that they are drawn by certain powers

Yeah I never really figured out why they wanted to attack Malaz in NoK. If they were attracted to just power though, they would have invaded Kolanse in TCG, cause that was Elder God Reunion, with superpowered FA and Jaghut on the side.

The Jaghut Guardian of the Deadhouse (forget her name, but she was female), made a deal with the Riders as part of her ploy to escape the Azath. It didn't go too well.

[Saitama]

Damn, completely forgot that. The Riders do like dealing (in various ways) with the ladies.

[worry]

kempster, on 22 August 2014 - 12:07 PM, said:

Worry.... While the Barrow for the redeemer was large in size.... it sure as hell wasn't fancy... for a God... that could be seen as modest..... Also... it would be just like Rake to call it a modest barrow regardless of size.... compared to the individual it housed.


Could Jethis be Spinnock?... well he and the beknighted did play Kef Tanar and they were friendly, but he was also reporting to Rake about their games because of Rake's interest in the Redeemer which was in no small part due to the respect Rake had for the man Itkovian. And Spinock had played the game with Rake for Thousands of years.


finally, if I remember correctly, Rake was interred outside of Darujistan, not Black Coral and I can't remember any mention of a barrow for Seerdomin aka the Beknighted. Not saying one couldn't have been erected for him at some point.....

Yah, Rake is buried outside of Daru. So it's clearly Seerdomin. It takes a lot of hoop-jumping to get to Redeemer's barrow being called "modest". Besides the tokens from the Imass, it's surrounded by worshipers who contribute to it daily. Likewise it would take a huge leap to call Rake and Seerdomin old friends, since they didn't meet. It's like leaps and bounds beyond wry if Rake wants to call him an old friend, just cuz he was keeping tabs on him via his actual friend Spinnock. Also there is no poetry to Fisher being right all along, as opposed to close but no cigar.

[waylander001]

Mentalist, on 21 August 2014 - 04:25 AM, said:

Finished.

Most of what I wanted to say has been said.

RE: who is Jethiss. I've spent the entire book chanting "please don't be Rake". I believe Spinnock is most likely. He's also been to Assail, iirc, so it would make a twisted kind of sense he come back.

A side observation: most people seem to think that since the Andii was a castaway, he must've been dead before. I posit this is because we are unconsciously drawing a parallel with Sandalath Drukorlat who was brought to life by the CG.

Re: the threat level of Assail. I believe it really had most to do with the fact that i) Assail's most accessible part (the north) is an inhospitable Wrecker's Coast, with the locals treating any outsider as fair game and ii) the lack of any serious political entity and pretty sparse population meant the whole continent was constantly fractured into warring tribes, and this warfare essentially devoured any outsiders, since thye would get caught in it.

Keep in mind, that there haven't really been many major seafaring empires capable of launching a strong force to conquer the place. It takes a huge amount of effort and a Ruse-skilled mage to even get into Assail past the coast (and we are told Ruse is one of the rarest warrens ever mastered).

As another aside: I suspect that one of the reasons for the nature of Assail's political structure is that the Jhaghut blood contributes to the isolationist tendencies of its indigienous population, and in rare cases (Mist) leads to emergence of tyrants.

Re: the Imass. I'd chalk up the bulk of the Ifayle losses to the civil war between themselves over the fate of the Icebloods. As for the Kherluhm, I imagine FA went on a murderous rampage on the entire continent.

As an aside: the "Four Founding Races" alone line made the whole book worth reading to a lore-fanatic.... absolutely frigging Brilliant.

What else? oh right, the whole "epilogue" thing. I do feel to some extent that the hype came from a vague description that Assail will be essentially a "complement" to tCG. In that regard, I can see some people being disappointed, since the book has next to 0 relation to tCG. That being said, read for what it is, the story of the CriG, and Silverfox and the Imass (which are the core "lingering questions" answered by the book), it succeeds. And the ride there is pretty awesome as well, which is a nice bonus.

Nicely put. Especially the part about the Jaghut blood being a contributing factor to the isolationism that most of the continent seems to have inherently inherited...

Anyway for my part i loved the book and also think it is ICEs best instalment ahead of NoK and RCG. I also agree with most of what ABYSS has said and always enjoy all of your musings. You always sum up these books fantastically well - much better than some of the people on this site who review the books and regularly get pre-sale copies - thanks for your efforts over the years buddy, i sincerely hope you can get your hands on future pre-sale copies like you did this one - even if you do end up in prison! Lol

One point that i disgaree with ABYSS on is that you can see why some people make the ASSAIL IS NOT WHAT IT WAS BUILT UP TO BE statements. I honestly cant see the whole "assail is not as badass or murderous as it has always been made out" argument. If you think about each seperate incursion in the book a little more then its made abundantly clear by ice just how murderous the continent is. When every race, tribe, people, city or town on a continent tries to kill visitors first and ask questions later - like they all do in this book - then of course the continent is god damned murderous and deadly.

Just because a lot of people/groups etc actually made it through into the continents core does not mean it is not as badass as previously made out. Thinking about how tough it was to get past the outlying settlements and peoples and how many of the groups probably perished trying - can you imagine how hard it would be for these groups to get away off the continent again?? Especially had they been single groups or incursions every now and again and not a mass invasion like we witnessed here.

I think the reason so many groups could make it to the continents interior on this occasion can be easily explained due to amount of incursions happening all across the whole continent at the same time. Can you imagine one single group trying to get past/through all of these obstacles without the camouflage or safety in numbers provided by the hufe scale of the overall invasion (which is effectively what it was)?

We also should take into account the diluted power of the Omtose Phellack ritual that has been leaking away over hundreds maybe even thousands(?) of years - it seems right that at this stage it probably isnt just as lethal as it was maybe a few centuries back when the ritual was still at its most potent. But overall its still one murderous bitch ofa place to travel to.

No sirree - i have no problem with the continent living up to its lethal reputation. And i cant see how anyone else does.

[Saitama]

waylander001, on 23 August 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

No sirree - i have no problem with the continent living up to its lethal reputation. And i cant see how anyone else does.

Disorganized groups of merchants, whores and thieves with retired soldiers here and there managed not only to survive, but also to build a settlement with (barely, but still) working government. 99% of those people wouldn't last a day in the Himatan jungle. Lethal, yes, but in the same way every other continent on Wu is.

[Andorion]

Second Sword, on 23 August 2014 - 12:33 PM, said:

waylander001, on 23 August 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

No sirree - i have no problem with the continent living up to its lethal reputation. And i cant see how anyone else does.

Disorganized groups of merchants, whores and thieves with retired soldiers here and there managed not only to survive, but also to build a settlement with (barely, but still) working government. 99% of those people wouldn't last a day in the Himatan jungle. Lethal, yes, but in the same way every other continent on Wu is.

Agree with this. I found Himatan easily the most hostile environment described. The Glass desert in Kolanse would give it a run for its money though.

[Coltainer]

My very short review of Assail


Let down

I was expecting a Kallor type king ruling over Assail or at least the important areas. Not a bunch of small log houses occupied by less than ten people each. In MOI when the Tlan Imass is talking about Assail and saying it was a human tyant, i was like o snap son. Where was the human tyant?
Speaking of the Forkrul Assail, they were a total let down. Was expecting a lot more action from them. What was with them crawling on all fours in the prologue?
The Crimson Guard revelation was surprising but not very awesome.
I wish Mist tried to take over the entire Assail continent, shouldnt of been that hard. Thought maybe mist was the human tyant the Tlan Imass was talking about in MOI.
The only thing deadly about Assail is getting to the continent.

Usually ICE has a good ending to the books, but for some reason I kept on reading and getting closer to the end, and realizing this is it? Wheres the suprising deaths, awesome action scenes, suprise twists?
One thing I like about Erikson is that he usually has 2X the awesomeness as ICE, usually middle is awesome and then also the end. Looking at you MOI!

Was better than Night of Knives but worse than the rest.

Also I always come to the forum after I finish a book, started over a year ago, expecting good discussion threads. Where are they? I always like reading people opinions and deeper insights into the books that I missed.

This post has been edited by Coltainer: 24 August 2014 - 03:19 AM

[Andorion]

Coltainer, on 24 August 2014 - 03:15 AM, said:

My very short review of Assail


Let down

I was expecting a Kallor type king ruling over Assail or at least the important areas. Not a bunch of small log houses occupied by less than ten people each. In MOI when the Tlan Imass is talking about Assail and saying it was a human tyant, i was like o snap son. Where was the human tyant?
Speaking of the Forkrul Assail, they were a total let down. Was expecting a lot more action from them. What was with them crawling on all fours in the prologue?
The Crimson Guard revelation was surprising but not very awesome.
I wish Mist tried to take over the entire Assail continent, shouldnt of been that hard. Thought maybe mist was the human tyant the Tlan Imass was talking about in MOI.
The only thing deadly about Assail is getting to the continent.

Usually ICE has a good ending to the books, but for some reason I kept on reading and getting closer to the end, and realizing this is it? Wheres the suprising deaths, awesome action scenes, suprise twists?
One thing I like about Erikson is that he usually has 2X the awesomeness as ICE, usually middle is awesome and then also the end. Looking at you MOI!

Was better than Night of Knives but worse than the rest.

Also I always come to the forum after I finish a book, started over a year ago, expecting good discussion threads. Where are they? I always like reading people opinions and deeper insights into the books that I missed.

Firstly, I believe there has been an extended discussion already about how the representave of the Imass distorted the truth earlier to further her own ends. The entire 'human tyrant' thing is more a bluff than anything else.
The FA four-legged thing was a bit puzzling. Agree there.
There has been a really good insight somewhere above about how Jaghut blood helps in the mutual isolationism of the Assail inhabitants.
The re-unleashing of Omtose Phellack, the assault on a super-glacier by a stream of Cussers, the re-meeting of the four founding races, something that has only been alluded to ever, the Assail giving of a sword to Jethiss, did not strike you as a event rich ending?
I am truly puzzled about your last comment. There are hundreds of discussion threads everywhere on practically every conceivable topic. This post you have made is in one of the two major Assail discussion threads. If you have some specific stuff you want to discuss why not open your own thread?

[worry]

The FA on all fours thing I think at least partly has to do with the steepness of the slope they are climbing down toward the Imass. They are essentially crawling down easily in the way an insect might. They're not insectoid obviously but in terms of the ease with which they climb (up or down, I'd wager). It's pretty alien vs. the other humanoid species, as it's meant to be. They do live in underground caverns, after all.

[Abyss]

Second Sword, on 23 August 2014 - 12:33 PM, said:

waylander001, on 23 August 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

No sirree - i have no problem with the continent living up to its lethal reputation. And i cant see how anyone else does.

Disorganized groups of merchants, whores and thieves with retired soldiers here and there managed not only to survive, but also to build a settlement with (barely, but still) working government. 99% of those people wouldn't last a day in the Himatan jungle. Lethal, yes, but in the same way every other continent on Wu is.

The point was made, repeatedly, that Assail was not what it was... The Icebloods were dying off even before the Imass started killing them, the Jaghut rituals... The Dreadly Sea, the ice fields, the glaciers... Were all fading. The Tyrants, Lady Mist and the Shaars/Sheers that we saw, had all done the isolationist thing Jaghut were known for.
And at the end of the book, the Jaghut elder's ritual wiped out most of the settlements and left one inhospitable fort full of humans and a newly consolidated clan of Icebloods.

[Abyss]

worry, on 24 August 2014 - 05:19 AM, said:

The FA on all fours thing I think at least partly has to do with the steepness of the slope they are climbing down toward the Imass. They are essentially crawling down easily in the way an insect might. They're not insectoid obviously but in terms of the ease with which they climb (up or down, I'd wager). It's pretty alien vs. the other humanoid species, as it's meant to be. They do live in underground caverns, after all.

Agreed and also reinforced the point that these 'pure' FA were even more alien than those we had seen before who were more or less humanoid.

[One Eye]

I am of the opinion that Jethiss is anomander. Firstly cause I want it to be true as he is one of my favorite characters but also after he said she gave him a title (SoD) he said his old name no longer fits. That made me think of the Dragnipurake part of his name and how with Dragnipur destroyed by Brood that name would no longer fit.

This post has been edited by One Eye: 24 August 2014 - 01:39 PM

[thorpems]

personally i think the knowledge of forkrul assail being on the continent of assail makes it arguably the most dangerous of the continents, regardless of everything else. that would make it only kolanse and assail that have FA?

[Saitama]

thorpems, on 24 August 2014 - 07:29 PM, said:

personally i think the knowledge of forkrul assail being on the continent of assail makes it arguably the most dangerous of the continents

How so?

[thorpems]

always thought the FA were meant to be the biggest badasses in the world - hence no one wants to go to assail cos they will get brain fucked by the forkrul and their akhrast korvalain (if thats the way it is spelt)

This post has been edited by thorpems: 24 August 2014 - 07:59 PM

[Saitama]

If I remember correctly, almost nobody outside of Assail knows that FA live there, so they can't be the reason everybody avoids that continent.
And are they really the biggest badasses? They had their assess kicked a few times. Imho that title should go to the first (and only) Jaghut army.

[thorpems]

see i assumed there were people (especially powerful figures like ganoes etc) that knew FA would be on assail, hence why no one wanted to go there. fisher seems to know all about it although he is obviously assailian

[Saitama]

Fisher wasn't sure himself - he had stories and legends but not even Icebloods believed them be true. Ganoes is/was busy elsewhere, and he probably hasn't been on Jacuruku either.

This post has been edited by Second Sword: 24 August 2014 - 09:13 PM