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Abyss Just Finished Assail spoiler-free comments, then SPOILERS after the jump...

#181 User is offline   Spoilsport Stonny 

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 10:55 PM

Just because Rake was called the "Mane of Chaos" doesn't mean that his hair represented chaos. His hair was left silver by T'riss as a symbol for his defiance re: Mother Dark. Not because he was draconic soletaken. His hair was white before that anyway. No chaos was necessary. Just a jar of Manic Panic.
Theorizing that one could poop within his own lifetime, Doctor Poopet led an elite group of scientists into the desert to develop a top secret project, known as QUANTUM POOP. Pressured to prove his theories or lose funding, Doctor Poopet, prematurely stepped into the Poop Accelerator and vanished. He awoke to find himself in the past, suffering from partial amnesia and facing a mirror image that was not his own. Fortunately, contact with his own bowels was made through brainwave transmissions, with Al the Poop Observer, who appeared in the form of a hologram that only Doctor Poopet could see and hear. Trapped in the past, Doctor Poopet finds himself pooping from life to life, pooping things right, that once went wrong and hoping each time, that his next poop will be the poop home.
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#182 User is offline   Saitama 

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 11:01 PM

View PostSpoilsport Stonny, on 25 August 2014 - 09:24 PM, said:

Seriously? Like it's a house key or something?! That's not how Hust blades are made at all. Making the sword out of the wielder's bone is perfect poetic justice


FoD Spoiler:
Spoiler

Though I probably should stop picking holes in the sword thing. Ice did what he did (for the good of the realm, probably :) ) and that's it.

Regarding Jethiss' dual purpose: it fits quite nicely. Though personally I would prefer if the new Founding was just a coincidence rather than a pre-planned thing.

Re: Rake's hair, I thought it used to be black

This post has been edited by Second Sword: 25 August 2014 - 11:50 PM

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#183 User is offline   Spoilsport Stonny 

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 12:25 AM

Right. I misspoke. It was "made" silver, or whatever. Point being, it wasn't representative of Chaos.
Theorizing that one could poop within his own lifetime, Doctor Poopet led an elite group of scientists into the desert to develop a top secret project, known as QUANTUM POOP. Pressured to prove his theories or lose funding, Doctor Poopet, prematurely stepped into the Poop Accelerator and vanished. He awoke to find himself in the past, suffering from partial amnesia and facing a mirror image that was not his own. Fortunately, contact with his own bowels was made through brainwave transmissions, with Al the Poop Observer, who appeared in the form of a hologram that only Doctor Poopet could see and hear. Trapped in the past, Doctor Poopet finds himself pooping from life to life, pooping things right, that once went wrong and hoping each time, that his next poop will be the poop home.
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#184 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 01:42 AM

View PostSecond Sword, on 25 August 2014 - 06:44 PM, said:

View PostAbyss, on 25 August 2014 - 06:26 PM, said:

2. - 'i can think of better options' is only a valid critique for Star Wars films. If Withal was just standing around with a perfect forge and all the hust blade ingredients and a contract with Mommy D to provide her new reborn in darkness champion with the perfect weapon with no sacrifice whatsoever, i'm sure Jeths would have washed up in his bathtub instead of on Assail.

Well, Kharkanas has probably a better forge than those FA caves anyway. There are different kinds of sacrifices and they are not always necessary beforehand (Anomander's first sword). Besides, If MD want's to have a special Andii blade she could use the Hust/re-forged Hust and bless this one for a change.
'I can think of more internally consistent option' is still a valid critique.


Quote

3. I'm wondering now whether Osserc just took advantage of the situation to get rid of a sword he didn't want any longer, and Kyle was just a convenient sucker. The Chaos angle isn't strange.. Ossi is draconic after all and antithetic to Rake who was opposed to Chaos.


I like the sucker angle because then at least it has some deeper meaning behind it. And Osserc may be chaotic but most of his actions have a certain long-term aim (gaining knowledge). I always thought that the whole blade for a blade thing was way too simple since the whiteblade is so powerful.


Regarding this Hust Blade and Withal issue, Lets take a look at both of them in context.

1. Hust blades are badass,no doubt, but remember, they were by no means unique weapons given to champions. There was a whole legion armed with Hust blades. In FoD Anomander gets Vengeance/Grief manufactured specifically as an upgraded, improved blade over Hust blades. And he, as the last Andii chamion wielded Dragnipur. For the new Andii champion, a Hust blade, would be a step down, just when they are trying to make a statement that they are back and ruling over Kharkanas. They need something different, something unique.

2. All claims of Withal as a top smith seem to be based on Rhulads blade. But lets critically look at Rhulads blade. It is clearly mentioned, several times over that the blade had impurities. Moreover it wasn't really supposed to act as a weapon of war, but a tool of control for Kaminsod. The blade did what it did because of Kaminsods magic which was wrapped in it. Withal is a Meckros smith, and as smiths go, Iam pretty sure he is pretty top class.But to craft the weapon fo the new Son of Darkness when swords like Dragnipur and Vengeance/Grief are casting their shadow everywhere?
I think not.

A lot of people here seem to get hug up on the idea that the FA are cavedwelling primitives and therefore incapable of making a weapon. I ask you all, how many times in the Malazan series has awesome power and ability come packaged ina deceptively humble, even primitive form? Just think on it a bit.
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#185 User is offline   Saitama 

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 05:52 AM

View PostAndorion, on 26 August 2014 - 01:42 AM, said:

In FoD Anomander gets Vengeance/Grief manufactured specifically as an upgraded, improved blade over Hust blades.

Quote

But to craft the weapon fo the new Son of Darkness when swords like Dragnipur and Vengeance/Grief are casting their shadow everywhere?



That is why I like Hust blades - they are part of the Andii history. G/V is a modified Hust, magically speaking it doesn't have any flashy properties but it's still one of the best (imho its the best) swords around. And those impurities in Rhulad's blade, if I remember correctyly, were implied to be shards of some other weapon CG gave Withal to reforge. So hey he's got experience in modyfing swords.

The whole FA thing, while not impossible, came out of nowhere. No hints of them producing weapons, no mentions of giving them away. Whenever a new story development pops out of nowhere, I can't be helped but be critical. Especially in this case, because the whole Jethiss identity subplot already damaged my trust in ICE's writing abilities. And then he pops out with another surprise.
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#186 User is offline   Spoilsport Stonny 

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 02:27 PM

It didn't pop out of nowhere though. The Crippled God's heart is chained in bones.

tCG Ch. 23

Quote

A female Forkrul Assail stood facing him. Young, almost incandescent with power. Behind her was a mass of bone chains heaped over something that pulsed with carmine light. The heart of the Crippled God.


Calm imprisons Icarium with chains of bones.

tCG Ch. 1:

Quote

Calm stood over the body, studying him, the angular features, the tusks, the faint flush that hinted of fever. Then she spoke to her ancestors. ‘Take him. Bind him. Weave your sorcery – he must remain unconscious. The risk of his awakening is too great. I will return before too long. Take him. Bind him.’ The chains of bones slithered out like serpents, plunging into the hard ground, ensnaring the body’s limbs, round the neck, across the torso, stitching him spread-eagled to this hilltop.


The Forkrul Assail have a history in these books of doing things with bones. Yeah, they never made a sword out of one, but then again, no one had asked them to.

I have a history of doing things with bones too, but I will spare you all the details.
Theorizing that one could poop within his own lifetime, Doctor Poopet led an elite group of scientists into the desert to develop a top secret project, known as QUANTUM POOP. Pressured to prove his theories or lose funding, Doctor Poopet, prematurely stepped into the Poop Accelerator and vanished. He awoke to find himself in the past, suffering from partial amnesia and facing a mirror image that was not his own. Fortunately, contact with his own bowels was made through brainwave transmissions, with Al the Poop Observer, who appeared in the form of a hologram that only Doctor Poopet could see and hear. Trapped in the past, Doctor Poopet finds himself pooping from life to life, pooping things right, that once went wrong and hoping each time, that his next poop will be the poop home.
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#187 User is offline   Saitama 

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 02:40 PM

View PostSpoilsport Stonny, on 26 August 2014 - 02:27 PM, said:

The Forkrul Assail have a history in these books of doing things with bones. Yeah, they never made a sword out of one, but then again, no one had asked them to.


I've never noticed that, but in that case it makes perfect sense why the sword is what it is.
I still would like some in-story explanation for the chain of events that lead MD to choose FA, but at least the weapon itself might be stronger than I thought.
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#188 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 02:54 PM

View Postworry, on 25 August 2014 - 09:30 PM, said:

... I think those wondering why Jethiss went to the FA for his sword are forgetting/ignoring the fact that he represented the Tiste in the new Founding. So he had at least a dual purpose in being there. The new sword may even be forged in light of that.


Good point... goes back to the goal of reintegrating the Andii into life in general.
And in that context, the sacrifice of an arm for a weapon is a pretty stark reminder that decisions have consequences and sometimes sacrifice is necessary.

View PostThe Old Guard, on 25 August 2014 - 10:24 PM, said:

The thing is: Assail takes place after B&B, so Kaminsod is already gone and we have live Imass, KCCM and pureblood Jaghut on Kolanse. So why do the Andii have to be in the new Founding?

Technically they could return to Kharkanas and not be forced to be in exile anymore.


They did return to Kharkanas, but it seems that Kurald Galain is now linked to Coral, so they can't hold themselves apart from the world any more, which was part of their problem and what Rake worked to counter.


Quote

So are the KCCM going to be left out?


Good question, and if we want to be detailed about it, the Edur, Liosan, and Teblor/T3 are all missing or at best incorporated by extension. Given the KC's near extinction and the fact that the last remaining hive has chosen to link itself to humans to survive, it's not like they have a major say in the future of the world at this point.

Still, the treaty was fundamentally an agreement to end any race wars like the Imass and Jaghut had been carrying on, and specifically avoid the FA deciding to wipe everyone out. It's not like they purported to end all conflict everywhere.

Quote

Thus, the question is: why did the Andii absolutely need to be there with a champion? The sword is but a consequence of that fact.


At least in part because the Andii need to be involved in the world, not holding themselves away from it.

Quote

Also, why do you say that Jethiss is a "pure Andii Champion"? The fact that he lost his memory, coupled with the white streaks in his hair, hints at a reinvigorating swim in the Vitr. Rake's white hair were dubbed "The Mane Of Chaos" for a reason, so it should only be natural to assume that an Andii with white streaks has been touched by Chaos, however briefly.


'pure' in the sense that he isn't draconic soletaken the way most of the other major champions are.
The white streaks... could be a holdover if it's Rake, could be a memorial note if it's Spin, could be something else altogether.


Quote

On a side note: the Whiteblade's color was often described as "ivory" which, in our world, is an elephant bone. So the notion that the blade is carved from the bones of an Eleint makes sense.


Agreed. And it's a nice notion that links back to the Boneblade as well.

View Postworry, on 25 August 2014 - 10:42 PM, said:

I didn't say anything about a "pure Andii champion."


I'm pretty sure that was me.

Quote

Re: the main question though: The Tiste didn't have to be there, of course. MD wanted a representative to be there. There is absolutely no way they are retreating to Karkhanas. They are part of the world. It's not even about exile anymore. It's a new era. That's part of Rake's sacrifice/gift: a beginning of the end of stagnation.


Exactly, tho i thought someone in the book commented that the Andii had all left Black Coral for Kharkanas at some point, but per my above comment, that's not the isolation it used to be.



View PostSecond Sword, on 25 August 2014 - 06:44 PM, said:

View PostAbyss, on 25 August 2014 - 06:26 PM, said:

2. - 'i can think of better options' is only a valid critique for Star Wars films. If Withal was just standing around with a perfect forge and all the hust blade ingredients and a contract with Mommy D to provide her new reborn in darkness champion with the perfect weapon with no sacrifice whatsoever, i'm sure Jeths would have washed up in his bathtub instead of on Assail.


Well, Kharkanas has probably a better forge than those FA caves anyway. There are different kinds of sacrifices and they are not always necessary beforehand (Anomander's first sword). Besides, If MD want's to have a special Andii blade she could use the Hust/re-forged Hust and bless this one for a change.
'I can think of more internally consistent option' is still a valid critique.


I kind of suspect the FA didn't use hammer and anvil to make the Boneblade. Because magic.

Also, if we're really going to break down the point, Yedan's sword was originally Silchas' (iirc or was it Rake?) and it didn't exactly protect either of them from misfortune or death. If we're starting anew, old legends need to be left aside a little.

View PostAndorion, on 26 August 2014 - 01:42 AM, said:

...A lot of people here seem to get hug up on the idea that the FA are cavedwelling primitives and therefore incapable of making a weapon. I ask you all, how many times in the Malazan series has awesome power and ability come packaged ina deceptively humble, even primitive form? Just think on it a bit.


THIS! A thousand times THIS.

View PostSecond Sword, on 26 August 2014 - 05:52 AM, said:

... G/V is a modified Hust, magically speaking it doesn't have any flashy properties ...


HoC.... the whole 'singular will' thing.
It was good enough to trade blows with Dragnipur. I call that flash.


Quote

The whole FA thing, while not impossible, came out of nowhere. No hints of them producing weapons, no mentions of giving them away. Whenever a new story development pops out of nowhere, I can't be helped but be critical. Especially in this case, because the whole Jethiss identity subplot already damaged my trust in ICE's writing abilities. And then he pops out with another surprise.


Per upthread, no it didn't. They have a whole history (well, in TCG) of doing mad crazy mojo with bones.
And just because you haven't read something before doesn't make it bad. This series has been throwing ancient lost history at us for sixteen or so books... 'that was always there, you just haven't seen it before' is not a novelty ( /irony) ... it's part of the fun.
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#189 User is offline   Saitama 

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 03:18 PM

View PostAbyss, on 26 August 2014 - 02:54 PM, said:

Per upthread, no it didn't. They have a whole history (well, in TCG) of doing mad crazy mojo with bones.
And just because you haven't read something before doesn't make it bad. This series has been throwing ancient lost history at us for sixteen or so books... 'that was always there, you just haven't seen it before' is not a novelty ( /irony) ... it's part of the fun.

They have a history of making things, but so do T'lann. What I meant is that the whole 'why FA' is not really fleshed out in the book. It just happens. It reminds me of those old computer games that went like this: kick a tree to scare the bird so it flies into a guard who sneezes so he doesn't see you sneaking around him. Sure, it made some sense afterwards, but figuring things out for yourself while playing was maddening.

btw, your post is... cyclopean
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#190 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 04:25 PM

View PostSecond Sword, on 26 August 2014 - 03:18 PM, said:

View PostAbyss, on 26 August 2014 - 02:54 PM, said:

Per upthread, no it didn't. They have a whole history (well, in TCG) of doing mad crazy mojo with bones.
And just because you haven't read something before doesn't make it bad. This series has been throwing ancient lost history at us for sixteen or so books... 'that was always there, you just haven't seen it before' is not a novelty ( /irony) ... it's part of the fun.

They have a history of making things, but so do T'lann. What I meant is that the whole 'why FA' is not really fleshed out in the book. It just happens.....


We could parse it out as 'Justice' or 'Sacrifice' or, i dunno, 'Foreshadowing something something' but the bottom line is this isn't exactly a series that spoils us with straight answers.


Quote

btw, your post is... cyclopean



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#191 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 08:09 PM

Oh yah, I do recognize that most TA have congregated in Karkhanas as of TCG, I just don't think it's a retreat from the mortal world. They are not pulling a Liosan.

And also since I do think J is Spinnock, I really like the idea of the white streaks in his hair as memorializing Rake. It's reminiscent of Rake -- something the TA still probably need, as their mourning will last centuries no doubt -- without overwhelming/denying Jethiss's individuality.
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#192 User is offline   Mentalist 

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 08:39 PM

View PostThe Old Guard, on 25 August 2014 - 10:24 PM, said:

View Postworry, on 25 August 2014 - 09:30 PM, said:

Hmm, I don't remember. I think the ones in Gothos's hut in TTH were obsidian black, but that might just be my preconceived dragon notions talking.

On another note, I think those wondering why Jethiss went to the FA for his sword are forgetting/ignoring the fact that he represented the Tiste in the new Founding. So he had at least a dual purpose in being there. The new sword may even be forged in light of that.



The thing is: Assail takes place after B&B, so Kaminsod is already gone and we have live Imass, KCCM and pureblood Jaghut on Kolanse. So why do the Andii have to be in the new Founding?

Technically they could return to Kharkanas and not be forced to be in exile anymore. So are the KCCM going to be left out?

Thus, the question is: why did the Andii absolutely need to be there with a champion? The sword is but a consequence of that fact.

Also, why do you say that Jethiss is a "pure Andii Champion"? The fact that he lost his memory, coupled with the white streaks in his hair, hints at a reinvigorating swim in the Vitr. Rake's white hair were dubbed "The Mane Of Chaos" for a reason, so it should only be natural to assume that an Andii with white streaks has been touched by Chaos, however briefly.

On a side note: the Whiteblade's color was often described as "ivory" which, in our world, is an elephant bone. So the notion that the blade is carved from the bones of an Eleint makes sense.


Well, The Andii have taken a pretty important and active role on Wu. Add to that the fact that they have thir goddes back (due to Rake's sacrifice), and you can see why they would take a more active role in world's affairs. You can take this as an indication that MD does not intend for her children to stay isolated from the world, feuding with the Liosan until the end of the world in their lonesome.


KCCM tend to continue staying isolated and trying to survive in the desert. We were told back in MoI that they were even worse tyrants than the Jaghut, and it's only due to persecutions and the madness of their last Matron that they became all goody-goody. Not to mention they have human champions now--they deffo don't fit the picture of a "major domination world power"

It's funny how in the end there wasn't a single human--who are the truly the main power on Wu in the meeting. Nonetheless, the "new compact" among the Elder races shows a shift--KCCM are out, Andii are subbed in.

View PostSecond Sword, on 26 August 2014 - 05:52 AM, said:

View PostAndorion, on 26 August 2014 - 01:42 AM, said:

In FoD Anomander gets Vengeance/Grief manufactured specifically as an upgraded, improved blade over Hust blades.

Quote

But to craft the weapon fo the new Son of Darkness when swords like Dragnipur and Vengeance/Grief are casting their shadow everywhere?



That is why I like Hust blades - they are part of the Andii history. G/V is a modified Hust, magically speaking it doesn't have any flashy properties but it's still one of the best (imho its the best) swords around. And those impurities in Rhulad's blade, if I remember correctyly, were implied to be shards of some other weapon CG gave Withal to reforge. So hey he's got experience in modyfing swords.

The whole FA thing, while not impossible, came out of nowhere. No hints of them producing weapons, no mentions of giving them away. Whenever a new story development pops out of nowhere, I can't be helped but be critical. Especially in this case, because the whole Jethiss identity subplot already damaged my trust in ICE's writing abilities. And then he pops out with another surprise.


You say that, but what do we actually know of the FA, except they have extra joints, they kill a lot of stuff, they are insane on "justice" and they were badass enough to stand up to all the other Elder races? (Oh, and they are likely connected to Killy and Setch). We were told once they had "dome cities". That's about it. EDIT: and also they do stuff w/bones. (btw, afaik, you are wrong. The Imass were into stone, not bones).

They have retreated from the world--this has more to do with them being "alien" to humans than with their weakness. We know all the other elders are scared shitless of them. What makes you think they are a primitive race? we have no indication of this aside of our preconception that "they aren't conquering the world---therefore they are weak/primitive". But the FA are meant to be alien --recall the story of them "killing their own god". It's foolins to apply human categories to them--that's the whole point!

Edit- I see Abyss has covered most of what I had to say.

EDIT AGAIN: to comment on this:

View PostAbyss, on 25 August 2014 - 05:45 AM, said:

View PostColtainer, on 24 August 2014 - 11:51 PM, said:

Shooting a glacier of ice with cussers wasnt that great.


You can go now.


Whilst it may be a bit harsh, yes, yes it was. Because on the one hand you've had a power millenia old that's used to destroy literally everything in its path. And against it you have a bunch of "puny humans" using technology--and winning.

This is the same type of epic as carpet-bombing the Seguleh with munitions in OST was--it's not about raw power or badassery, it's about who's smarter.

This post has been edited by Mentalist: 26 August 2014 - 09:00 PM

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View PostJump Around, on 23 October 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:

And I want to state that Ment has out-weaseled me by far in this game.
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Posted 26 August 2014 - 11:27 PM

Well, first of all thank you for the extensive answers, even though it seems that every reasonable explanation that we can come up with sprouts a thousand more questions. How shall I put it? Ah, yes:

THIS. IS. AMAZING!

So, the first question of the thousand is: What about the Liosan? At the end of B&B I think Osserc ended up imitating Rake's last act (it would be a nice parallel) and (maybe) sacrificing himself to protect and at the same time free Kurald Liosan. So, it follows that the Hold of Light is not isolated anymore and now not even the Liosan can pull a Liosan (awesome expression @worry), I dare say.

So, if Thyrllan is nowlinked to Wu, are the Liosan going to try to break into the new Funding or are they going to keep using "Full Berserk Genocide Mode" to wipe out the Andii? That, I think, would bring about a rather fearsome FA reaction at the very least...
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Posted 27 August 2014 - 12:14 AM

View PostThe Old Guard, on 26 August 2014 - 11:27 PM, said:

Well, first of all thank you for the extensive answers, even though it seems that every reasonable explanation that we can come up with sprouts a thousand more questions.


It's part of the fun of this series.



Quote

How shall I put it? Ah, yes:

THIS. IS. AMAZING!



Amen.

Quote

So, the first question of the thousand is: What about the Liosan? At the end of B&B I think Osserc ended up imitating Rake's last act (it would be a nice parallel) and (maybe) sacrificing himself to protect and at the same time free Kurald Liosan. So, it follows that the Hold of Light is not isolated anymore and now not even the Liosan can pull a Liosan (awesome expression @worry), I dare say.

So, if Thyrllan is now linked to Wu, are the Liosan going to try to break into the new Funding or are they going to keep using "Full Berserk Genocide Mode" to wipe out the Andii? That, I think, would bring about a rather fearsome FA reaction at the very least...


Not sure how you get to where you got... Ossi flew into the sky and intercepted a fairly large Jade Chunk the mages were trying to drop on Kallor. He broke it and mostly stopped the impact, but it knocked him to the ground and injured him badly.

As far as i can recall, there was no effect on the Kurald Liosan/Thyrlland warren. He was already slacking off as its guardian since before HoC and that hadn't changed. He was dropped back there to recover.

The remaining Liosan that we've seen amount to the semi-reasonable group led by Loric, that Leoman and Kiska encountered in SW, and whoever is left of the fanatic faction after the events at the Shore in TCG.

The Shore is still there, but it seems unlikely any Liosan are going to attempt another invasion any time soon. The fanatics lost their Hounds and most/all of their draconic soletaken leaders.it was suggested that the
TCG FA were behind the plot, but they were also wiped out and the ASSAIL FA don't seem inclined to try the same plan.
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#195 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 01:28 AM

View PostAbyss, on 27 August 2014 - 12:14 AM, said:

View PostThe Old Guard, on 26 August 2014 - 11:27 PM, said:

Well, first of all thank you for the extensive answers, even though it seems that every reasonable explanation that we can come up with sprouts a thousand more questions.


It's part of the fun of this series.



Quote

How shall I put it? Ah, yes:

THIS. IS. AMAZING!



Amen.

Quote

So, the first question of the thousand is: What about the Liosan? At the end of B&B I think Osserc ended up imitating Rake's last act (it would be a nice parallel) and (maybe) sacrificing himself to protect and at the same time free Kurald Liosan. So, it follows that the Hold of Light is not isolated anymore and now not even the Liosan can pull a Liosan (awesome expression @worry), I dare say.

So, if Thyrllan is now linked to Wu, are the Liosan going to try to break into the new Funding or are they going to keep using "Full Berserk Genocide Mode" to wipe out the Andii? That, I think, would bring about a rather fearsome FA reaction at the very least...


Not sure how you get to where you got... Ossi flew into the sky and intercepted a fairly large Jade Chunk the mages were trying to drop on Kallor. He broke it and mostly stopped the impact, but it knocked him to the ground and injured him badly.

As far as i can recall, there was no effect on the Kurald Liosan/Thyrlland warren. He was already slacking off as its guardian since before HoC and that hadn't changed. He was dropped back there to recover.

The remaining Liosan that we've seen amount to the semi-reasonable group led by Loric, that Leoman and Kiska encountered in SW, and whoever is left of the fanatic faction after the events at the Shore in TCG.

The Shore is still there, but it seems unlikely any Liosan are going to attempt another invasion any time soon. The fanatics lost their Hounds and most/all of their draconic soletaken leaders.it was suggested that the
TCG FA were behind the plot, but they were also wiped out and the ASSAIL FA don't seem inclined to try the same plan.


Please lets not anybody compare Osserc to Rake. One thing the ICE arc of books did was to thoroughly establish Osserc as this unstable guy who did futile things for no good reason whatsoever. His interception of the Jade chunk is a type of redemption, but comparing that to Rake's sacrifice...... nah.. As for the Liosan, I don't think the genocidal faction would be any more trouble. The way I read the final battle on the Shore in TCG, when Silanah led Nimander and company to battle the liosan basically got pounded. It is never a good idea to piss off Silanah, and this was a dragon who seriously wanted to blow of steam after Rake's death, only to get almost sucked into T'iams storm. So I am interpreting the slaughter she visited upon the Liosan as pretty final.
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#196 User is offline   Spoilsport Stonny 

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 02:05 AM

Since Rake dispersed into Night, perhaps since Spinnock perhaps dies and is reborn, would he maybe exhibit a trace of the newly-Rakified KG? It seems likely Anomander would have that kind of impact and its also pretty symbolic and powerful when thought of that way.
Theorizing that one could poop within his own lifetime, Doctor Poopet led an elite group of scientists into the desert to develop a top secret project, known as QUANTUM POOP. Pressured to prove his theories or lose funding, Doctor Poopet, prematurely stepped into the Poop Accelerator and vanished. He awoke to find himself in the past, suffering from partial amnesia and facing a mirror image that was not his own. Fortunately, contact with his own bowels was made through brainwave transmissions, with Al the Poop Observer, who appeared in the form of a hologram that only Doctor Poopet could see and hear. Trapped in the past, Doctor Poopet finds himself pooping from life to life, pooping things right, that once went wrong and hoping each time, that his next poop will be the poop home.
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#197 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 04:46 AM

Maybe it's Rake's soul in Spin's body.
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#198 User is offline   Gorgon 

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 09:27 AM

Now that is an interesting theory, I think rake is defo involved, we all know death ain't final in wu
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#199 User is offline   The Old Guard 

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 12:02 PM

View PostAbyss, on 27 August 2014 - 12:14 AM, said:


Not sure how you get to where you got... Ossi flew into the sky and intercepted a fairly large Jade Chunk the mages were trying to drop on Kallor. He broke it and mostly stopped the impact, but it knocked him to the ground and injured him badly.

As far as i can recall, there was no effect on the Kurald Liosan/Thyrlland warren. He was already slacking off as its guardian since before HoC and that hadn't changed. He was dropped back there to recover.

The remaining Liosan that we've seen amount to the semi-reasonable group led by Loric, that Leoman and Kiska encountered in SW, and whoever is left of the fanatic faction after the events at the Shore in TCG.

The Shore is still there, but it seems unlikely any Liosan are going to attempt another invasion any time soon. The fanatics lost their Hounds and most/all of their draconic soletaken leaders.it was suggested that the
TCG FA were behind the plot, but they were also wiped out and the ASSAIL FA don't seem inclined to try the same plan.


Well, I surmised what I said from a number of things. First of all, Gothos: "How can you maintain something you never had all along?" referring to control over all access to Thyrllan, in my opinion. Then there's the fact that where he goes to recover in the Epilogue of B&B is Kurald Liosan itself. There are some creatures that take him in and state:

" 'It is him!' came the melodious call, somehow conveying disbelief and joy.
'Returned as he promised us. Open the way!'

After this statement, L'oric confirms that what they open is the Gate to Thyrllan. Thus, I surmised that whoever these creatures are Osserc gave them a simple order: "guard the gate and keep it closed until my return" or something along those lines. Of course Gothos thinks that it wasn't enough, and I am inclined to agree. Hence the perceived "slacking off" of Osserc's guardianship. There were cracks alla along, it just took time to expose them.

Also, remember that when he intercepts one of the jade chunks he does so because he does not want Thyrllan's power to be used, or at least so it seems, judging by what he says on his way out of the Azath.

Ok, OT closed. Now, I didn't remember that the TCG FA were working alongside the Shore Liosan so having that information I am inclined to agree with you all. They should not pose a problem to the new peace.

As for Jethiss, Rake's soul inside Spinnock's body makes sense, but I would be more inclined to suggest a merging of the two souls. The hair seem to point in that direction and there's the fact that, as far as we know, Anomandaris respected Seerdomin but never played Kef Tanar with him. That was pure Spinnock.
Another weird thing abouth Jethiss is that he is often described as freakishly strong. He breaks every weapon he uses, even those made for Jhags, who are pretty strong on their own right. So, could it be that he is Soletaken? Or did SE describe Spinnock as very muscular too?
And what about his KG magic? Was Spinnock a mage? I might be wrong, but I don't think so. Also, how and where did he die? I think Korlat healed him after the duel with Kallor in TtH...
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#200 User is offline   Uncia 

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 01:29 PM

View PostThe Old Guard, on 27 August 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

As for Jethiss, Rake's soul inside Spinnock's body makes sense, but I would bemore inclined to suggest a merging of the two souls. The hair seem to point inthat direction and there's the fact that, as far as we know, Anomandarisrespected Seerdomin but never played Kef Tanar with him. That was pureSpinnock.
Another weird thing abouth Jethiss is that he is often described as freakishlystrong. He breaks every weapon he uses, even those made for Jhags, who arepretty strong on their own right. So, could it be that he is Soletaken? Or didSE describe Spinnock as very muscular too?
And what about his KG magic? Was Spinnock a mage? I might be wrong, but I don'tthink so. Also, how and where did he die? I think Korlat healed him after theduel with Kallor in TtH...

This, Jethiss was described as being big/muscular for a TA and very strong. Iwonder why that was.

For some reason I kept having a Jaghut vibe with him (although I kept on repeatingplease don’t be Rake) but that might be because I love the Jaghut.
Because of the last part I do think it is Spinnock.

Overall I really liked this book, the most of all ICE books. I really stayedinterested (and that was not the case with his previous books). I doubtedwether I would stop with ICE books after B&B, but after this book I will definitelybuy the next Malazan book of ICE.


I liked what he did with Kyle, I really disliked Kyle in all other books, butthis book he really was a better character. I still think Iron bars isunderdeveloped by ICE (but I think it is clear ICE wants his CG to shine in hisbooks and he does not have a strong connection with Iron Bars)


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