[polishgenius]

amphibian, on 13 June 2014 - 02:10 AM, said:

Dunga got shit on for saying this is what they needed to do and Scolari gets the benefit of the doubt for doing this (but using different language). The reaction to this is kind of surreal to me.

There's a huge difference between the way Scolari sets up and the way Dunga set up though. That was lowest-common-denominator, Tony-Pulis-at-Stoke stuff, and as lacking in creative talent as Brazil might have been, there was no need for it. Scolari is pragmatic, but he isn't crude.


However:

Quote

This Brazilian team is basically built exactly like every successful Brazilian team in actual history (not the misremembered "joga bonito" that never existed). They put a few extremely talented forwards up, have workman-like midfielders, a set of very good fullbacks and an at least competent center back duo.

The difference is that this Brazilian team has a lot less actual talent than previous Brazilian teams. As people have said, Neymar isn't anywhere near the great names of the past, despite his goalscoring record (and while he might yet develop to that level, I'm not convinced), and the best attacking player past him is Oscar, who is very solid, but no-one to lose your shit over. They give up a skill advantage to many teams in the tournament and that's not a position Brazil are used to.

This post has been edited by polishgenius: 13 June 2014 - 09:07 AM

[Tiste Simeon]

Plus he won't be able to go on holiday to the Baltic any time soon!

Spain vs Netherlands should coincide nicely with my meal break on shift tonight!

[Macros]

In about 2 hours I'll be getting on a bus for a stag do, so chances of me remembering any of the Spain Holland grudge match are slim.

But yeah, Neymar, scores goals sure, hasn't been prolific at Barca though

[Tattersail_]

Every person I know thought the ref was shocking, all neutrals, no one supported Brazil or Croatia. I made a point of how bad he was, and in the middle of my rant he gave that penalty. Shocking decision. It's all political anyway, they needed Brazil to win that match to calm the population down. Imagine the riots if Brazil lost.

[Tiste Simeon]

That header by RVP was sublime!

In other news by all accounts the Mexico game had some shambolic decisions by the officials too. So they can use goal line tech to see if a ball that CLEARLY hit the back of the net went in or not (!?) but they can't use a quick video to decide if it is offside or not... madness!

[Coco with marshmallows]

2 good goals disallowed in Mexico game imho.

Very surprising at Cameroon's performance,


Bloody STUNNED at Spain's though.

[Tsundoku]

*le sigh* 2-1 down at half time. Great work to get one back by Cahill, but it's obvious that our inexperienced defence just isn't good enough at this level. Slick Chile turning and passing constantly has our lads on the defensive.

Oh well, we weren't expecting big things this time, if our lads give their all and maybe score a few then that's good enough. All I ask is that we don't get flogged in all 3 games.

I've lost track of the times our commentators, team and officials have used the term "rebuilding phase" though.

[Binder of Demons]

Hey Sombra, watchign the 2nd half of the Socceroos game and I'm very impressed. Considering how badly outclassed ye seemed in the first half at times, it's amazing how ye've come back into it. LEckie is causing panic every time he touches the ball, he's pretty damn quick.

I hope ye manage to get the equaliser.

[Tiste Simeon]

I Am Brian Blessed Not Brent Weeks, on 13 June 2014 - 09:03 PM, said:

2 good goals disallowed in Mexico game imho.

Very surprising at Cameroon's performance,


Bloody STUNNED at Spain's though.

Considering the quality on the Spanish side their performance - especially the defence and especially in the second half - was utterly shoddy. Not to take anything away from Netherlands who played stupendous football and at least 3 of the 5 goals were stonking good ones, but that was not at all what I expected from Spain! This World Cup is shaping up to be a flipping good one! Goals, controversies, upsets & surprises, and that is after 4 games...

Here's just hoping the England game tomorrow isn't deathly boring.

[Tsundoku]

Binder of Demons, on 13 June 2014 - 11:33 PM, said:

Hey Sombra, watchign the 2nd half of the Socceroos game and I'm very impressed. Considering how badly outclassed ye seemed in the first half at times, it's amazing how ye've come back into it. LEckie is causing panic every time he touches the ball, he's pretty damn quick.

I hope ye manage to get the equaliser.

God dammit! They were looking a lot better in the second half, 2-1 would have been a good result, but once again the defence went to sleep, deep into the 4 mins of injury time (the announcement of which was booed by the Chilean fans) and Chile made it 3-1. That's heartbreaking stuff right there.

They could have gone into the next match after 2-1 thinking they had improved but after losing 3-1 like that it's going to be very hard to pick themselves up off the carpet.

On the whole, the ref had a pretty decent game though. A couple of calls raised eyebrows but no more than that and they had no impact on the result.

[amphibian]

Tisteon Simeonus, on 13 June 2014 - 11:38 PM, said:

Considering the quality on the Spanish side their performance - especially the defence and especially in the second half - was utterly shoddy. Not to take anything away from Netherlands who played stupendous football and at least 3 of the 5 goals were stonking good ones, but that was not at all what I expected from Spain! This World Cup is shaping up to be a flipping good one! Goals, controversies, upsets & surprises, and that is after 4 games...

Here's just hoping the England game tomorrow isn't deathly boring.

The Spain defense wasn't actually that bad - apart from Casillas getting embarrassed by the last Robben goal that was set up with a long pass right through the middle. The Dutch forwards were absolutely world class today and got great balls put into them fast enough that the Spanish couldn't recover from their pressing ways in time.

The Spanish gave up the sidelines by putting David Silva on the right wing (he always goes in the middle and makes right to left runs all the way to the other side of the field) and Holland used that to give Blind looots of time to give absolute beauties of crosses to Robben and Van Persie or have Sneidjer work the ball around a bit.

Seriously, there may not be a better cross this world cup than the one he hit to Van Persie. It was perfectly weighted - just ahead of Casilla's "go out and get it" range, just behind the defense of Ramos/Pique and at the perfect height for Van Persie to one touch. It was an extraordinary kick and Van Persie honored it with a stellar heading lob.

Blind hit another great one for Robben later on and then again and again got the ball out to the forwards as fast as possible. Things were just firing for Holland in a way that's exceptionally rare. If those two teams play again 10 times, I strongly doubt the Dutch reach that level of a shellacking of Spain. Everything went right for them today - apart from the poor penalty call. The David Silva saved lob went their way and so on.

Edit: When the Spanish subs came on, Fabregas stayed much farther out to the right and Pedro made sure to pin back the Dutch defenders too. However, they took off Xabi and told the midfielders to get more aggressive going forwards, which made the long pass sliced through the middle possible for Robben's second goal. That's a sign that the Dutch absolutely won the tactical battle and that Blind may be underscouted or performing much better than most everybody expected.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 14 June 2014 - 12:44 AM

[Dolmen 2.0]

Really upset I missed most of the worldcup.

I was rooting Netherlands though and boy did they deliver. I'm curious to see if Spain can pull up their socks. The game was a showcase for the dutch side. I really want to see Germany face Netherlands in this level of form. That'd be the highlight game for me.

Re: Brazillian Team: I started supporting the Brazilians when I was six? not sure. it was during the Romario vs Baggio era. The likes of Ronaldhinho and Ronaldo were stars to be sure but Brazils true brilliance has always been excellent fullbacks and sturdy Defensive Midfielders that played the clever pass. Without them players like Ronaldinho could not afford to wreak havoc with lightening quick counters.

Oscar and Neymar are pretty creative players but I don't see them factoring against the more clinical sides, not if the guys in the centre continue to struggle. I think they need to stick to their guns but polish the hell out the pass. The Brazil of the past had more to work with in and this area, the current brazilian team needs to accept this. If discipline holds I think Brazil will steady themselves and start showing better form. More confidence in the midfield might see some more exploratory "modric" style forward passing. I'd like to see a few Fullbacks realized as pseudo wing elements freeing up Neymar or Oscar or both. they may have a good passing game between them if they tried. Those boys are still quick on the ball and speed down the centre might be the order of the day.

[Tiste Simeon]

Amph - for all their tactical stuff, Spain brought on Torres. To me, that was when they gave up.

[polishgenius]

amphibian, on 14 June 2014 - 12:42 AM, said:

The Spanish gave up the sidelines by putting David Silva on the right wing (he always goes in the middle and makes right to left runs all the way to the other side of the field) and Holland used that to give Blind looots of time to give absolute beauties of crosses to Robben and Van Persie or have Sneidjer work the ball around a bit.

The problem wasn't simply that Silva comes inside- after all, Iniesta does that all the time too from the other side- but that Azpilequeta wasn't getting forward enough to get to Blind. It was an inspired tactical decision by Van Gaal though to use wing-backs- it put them in just the right position, too far back for the Spanish fbs to comfortably close them down (Alba managed better because he's much faster, but it was still there) but close enough for the Dutch midfield to be able to easily find them, making them the perfect safe release pass and nullifying much of the usefulness of Spain's high-pressing game. And with Blind's long-passing and crossing, as you say, that made for an incredibly effective attacking outlet as well.

Quote

Blind may be underscouted

It's weird because this seems to be true- I certainly hadn't heard or read much about him before this, or noticed him much myself (though I don't watch Ajax much), but he's Dutch player of the year and reportedly one of Van Gaal's transfer targets once he starts his new job, so he really shouldn't have been such a surprise.

[Tiste Simeon]

polishgenius, on 14 June 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

Quote

Blind may be underscouted

It's weird because this seems to be true- I certainly hadn't heard or read much about him before this, or noticed him much myself (though I don't watch Ajax much), but he's Dutch player of the year and reportedly one of Van Gaal's transfer targets once he starts his new job, so he really shouldn't have been such a surprise.

Heck yes! We could certainly do with strengthening our midfield!

[polishgenius]

Tisteon Simeonus, on 14 June 2014 - 03:26 PM, said:

polishgenius, on 14 June 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

Quote

Blind may be underscouted

It's weird because this seems to be true- I certainly hadn't heard or read much about him before this, or noticed him much myself (though I don't watch Ajax much), but he's Dutch player of the year and reportedly one of Van Gaal's transfer targets once he starts his new job, so he really shouldn't have been such a surprise.

Heck yes! We could certainly do with strengthening our midfield!

It seems likely that Van Gaal would be signing him as a full-back. He seems to be interested in Strootman as the midfielder, although I do hope that he doesn't just buy a load of Dutchmen regardless who the best option might be.

[amphibian]

Quote

The problem wasn't simply that Silva comes inside- after all, Iniesta does that all the time too from the other side- but that Azpilequeta wasn't getting forward enough to get to Blind.

When you have an enforced choice between marking Blind and Robben, you have to go with the latter.

My grappling coach who played on a college kennel theorizes that the Spanish are suffering a few knock on effects from losing Puyol over the last couple years. He was extremely good at ensuring fast crosses didn't hurt the Spanish with his speed and physical play. Without him, they have to put Ramos in the middle, where he's better as a right back, even if he plays center for Real Madrid. Then they play Azpulicueta, who isn't as experienced or fast as Alba or Ramos. It's a meta game that doesn't forgive losing tremendous defenders.

Quote

It's weird because this seems to be true- I certainly hadn't heard or read much about him before this, or noticed him much myself (though I don't watch Ajax much), but he's Dutch player of the year and reportedly one of Van Gaal's transfer targets once he starts his new job, so he really shouldn't have been such a surprise.

I'd heard the player of the year thing, but figured if Spain was letting him have that much time on the ball, they were either hoping for him to make the plays to best them -which he did - or going for the ultra offense against an envisioned pack the defense strategy. Maybe both.

[Mentalist]

Gothos, on 13 June 2014 - 08:30 AM, said:

amphibian, on 13 June 2014 - 08:15 AM, said:

The penalty call was legit because of the shoulder pull. Yes, Fred fell over way too easily, however, he was hampered from a goal scoring opportunity clearly.

It's part of the rules of the game. Referee has to call that and it is different from set piece plays because Fred made contact with the ball in the right way.

What's not in the game is sheer immunity for goalies going up for fifty fifty balls. The "impedance" rule is to prevent people from screening the goalie to the ball, not to give them a halo of "do not touch" that calls back goals.

Diving, regardless of being in the box or not, is the worst scum of this sport and should be hunted with great prejudice. Fred is filthy scum for doing that and you know it. Playing the rules instead of by the rules takes all the magic away from football. It's well overdue for it to receive out-of-play clock and referee control from the sidelines, with replay-based challenge (as in volleyball in more and more places). When a player decides to, instead of taking a shot at the goal, dip his foot and drop to try to cheat his way to a penalty, sport is dead.

THANK YOU

As a defender, I despise divers. I was ecstatic watching the Spain game. Karma's a real bitch, ain't it?

[Mentalist]

Other than that, I've missed the Brazil game as I was at work, so no comments.

Mexico-Cameroon was incredibly entertaining to watch. Although Mexico was clearly a vastly superior team, and that side ref needs to have his eyesight checked. Cameroon's counters were great, but just not the same level.

Spain.... oh God, I've enjoyed that. Nevermind the fact I have Spain set to win it all in our World Cup Pool (I got lazy,so did it all based on FIFA rankings), i enjoyed that. I very much dislike ALL "southern" teams for diving and theatrics, and that was just perfect karma. The penalty call I felt was BS, and the fact that Castilas messed up so comprehensively, and was embarassed so thoroughly by both RVP and Robben... well, it was so very sweet.

I felt the Aussies deserved a 2:2 draw. incredibly unlucky with the offside goal, although Chile looked strong.

only caught the second half of the Colombia game, but Greece got so very unlucky with Gekas hitting the crossbar. Killed their momenttum.

AS always, rooting for the slavic teams, then Netherlands and Germany. My heroes will be whomever eliminates Russia though.

[Coco with marshmallows]

Sombra, on 13 June 2014 - 10:53 PM, said:

I've lost track of the times our commentators, team and officials have used the term "rebuilding phase" though.

Cry me a river you Aussie drongo.

We've been 'rebuilding' since France '98 with no f***ing end in sight yet.

seriously, i jinxed Scotland then. I was just turned 18 watching the world cup and said to my mates "we'll go to the next big tournament Scotland get to" - bear in mind at that point we had a better qualifying history than England, missing '94 had seemed like an unusual blip. Even the Euro's would have done.


F***!