[Egwene]

Any help to answer a few questions would be very welcome!!! I'll put the latest to the top, so keep checking...

LATEST QUESTION:

Question 5: Can you help me with some details for the Tiste Edur Ship that Shurq Elalle comes across in chapter three of Reaper's Gale? Was it attacked by the Malazan's and if so, do we get that point of view anywhere from their angle? Also... the amphora are bearing what must be Coltaine's image... what is known about where the blood came from? Was it from the Chain of Dogs? Any bits of info gratefully received :-)

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Question 4: Does anyone remember any titles other than 'High Marshal' for the Mott irregulars?


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Question 3: Updating Gruntle - who, what, where is this panther, his mistress that he talks about in chapter two, tCG?

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Question 2: In the process of editing the Wikia, I came across a very short entry for the Shriven:

The Shriven were soldiers of the Forkrul Assail armies in Kolanse. They were controlled by the Forkrul Assail by voice.

I am not sure about that definition... any suggestions
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Question 1: Anyone know there is any supporting evidence that the reptilian beast which Karsa battles early on in The Bonehunters is a K'Chain Nah'ruk?
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Thanks!!

This post has been edited by Egwene: 06 March 2014 - 08:38 PM

[Abyss]

Egwene, on 10 February 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

Any help to answer a few questions would be very welcome!!!

...................

In the process of editing the Wikia, I came across a very short entry for the Shriven:

The Shriven were soldiers of the Forkrul Assail armies in Kolanse. They were controlled by the Forkrul Assail by voice.

I am not sure about that definition... any suggestions?

'Soldiers of the FA empire in Kolanse, Shriven may have a tiny bit of FA blood in them, but are otherwise indistinguishable from humans. The children of The Snake may have been Shriven, explaining how they survived as long as they did'.

That's all from DoD. There's nothing to suggest the FA had to use their Voice to control the troops.

There were also two other levels of part-FA/human mixes... i can't exactly recall, possibly Watered and something else...

Quote

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Anyone know there is any supporting evidence that the reptilian beast which Karsa battles early on in The Bonehunters is a K'Chain Nah'ruk?


Thanks!!

As of TB it seemed likely based on the fact that the beast in question had a short tail and the only other description we had of KN was from Ganath as she was clubbed in the head by one later in the book.

Now that we've got the rest of the MBF i go with that K'Chain being either a Ja'an sentinel or more likely a particularly nasty Shi'gal assassin (and before anyone says it, yes, i know that the Shi'gal in DoD/TCG is different in a tall lean way, but the books say he was the first one to have wings, so i figure he's not going to be a big bulky monster... and he was also extremely tall (taller than a Kell Hunter), strong AND HAD A SHORT TAIL).

[D'rek]

Abyss, on 10 February 2014 - 05:07 PM, said:

Egwene, on 10 February 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

Any help to answer a few questions would be very welcome!!!

...................

In the process of editing the Wikia, I came across a very short entry for the Shriven:

The Shriven were soldiers of the Forkrul Assail armies in Kolanse. They were controlled by the Forkrul Assail by voice.

I am not sure about that definition... any suggestions?

'Soldiers of the FA empire in Kolanse, Shriven may have a tiny bit of FA blood in them, but are otherwise indistinguishable from humans. The children of The Snake may have been Shriven, explaining how they survived as long as they did'.

That's all from DoD. There's nothing to suggest the FA had to use their Voice to control the troops.

There were also two other levels of part-FA/human mixes... i can't exactly recall, possibly Watered and something else...

Watered were the ones who were mostly FA with just a bit of human (or something else) - they had the next highest ranking positions in the FA armies below the ten pureblood FA and seemed to be perfectly loyal to the FA cause without any need for coercion through the Akrhast Korvalain voice powers.

DoD made Shriven seem like they had to be part-FA, but after TCG I'm not entirely sure. The way Ganoes Paran talks about them in the first chapter or two of TCG could be taken either way, I think. There is definitely a remark in there about some of the Kolansii/Estobanii children in the fort having having longer limbs and being paler. So I think it is either

{a} Shriven means any Kolansii/Estobanii/etc the FA took control of
or
{b} Shriven refers to Kolansii/Estobanii/etc who have a small amount of FA blood, less than Watered. They are not automatically dedicated to the FA cause, like the boy in Paran's castle.

Which matches well the possible definitions of 'shrive':

shrive (ʃraɪv)

v. shrove shrived, shriv•en shrived, shriv•ing. v.t. 1. to impose penance on (a sinner). 2. to grant absolution to (a penitent).

{a} would go well with {1} - the FA imposed a penance on all the humans so they are all Shriven

but {b} would go well with {2} - the Shriven are those whom the FA granted some absolution to by bringing them into the FA cause with crossbreeding or whatever



I don't have my TCG handy, but I think there are some good sections from Paran and Brother Grave that would clear this up. I also think there's a late section from Brother Grave near the Barrow where he reaches out and suppresses all his army's emotions (after the marines laugh), showing that the FA do use their Akrhast Korvalain magic to directly coerce their human/Shriven armies.

Abyss, on 10 February 2014 - 05:07 PM, said:

Quote

...............


Anyone know there is any supporting evidence that the reptilian beast which Karsa battles early on in The Bonehunters is a K'Chain Nah'ruk?


Thanks!!

As of TB it seemed likely based on the fact that the beast in question had a short tail and the only other description we had of KN was from Ganath as she was clubbed in the head by one later in the book.

Now that we've got the rest of the MBF i go with that K'Chain being either a Ja'an sentinel or more likely a particularly nasty Shi'gal assassin (and before anyone says it, yes, i know that the Shi'gal in DoD/TCG is different in a tall lean way, but the books say he was the first one to have wings, so i figure he's not going to be a big bulky monster... and he was also extremely tall (taller than a Kell Hunter), strong AND HAD A SHORT TAIL).

The timing was also fishy in that we had Karsa fighting the monster, Ganath being killed by confirmed Nah'ruk, and Iccy & Mappo finding Sorrit crucified all in close times, as if a bunch of Nah'ruk had emerged/awakened on 7C together and caused all these events. But those could still be all related without the beast Karsa fought being a Nah'ruk (or being a non-vanilla kind of Nah'ruk, for that matter).

[Abyss]

D, on 10 February 2014 - 05:35 PM, said:

...
Watered were the ones who were mostly FA with just a bit of human (or something else) - they had the next highest ranking positions in the FA armies below the ten pureblood FA and seemed to be perfectly loyal to the FA cause without any need for coercion through the Akrhast Korvalain voice powers.

DoD made Shriven seem like they had to be part-FA, but after TCG I'm not entirely sure. The way Ganoes Paran talks about them in the first chapter or two of TCG could be taken either way, I think. There is definitely a remark in there about some of the Kolansii/Estobanii children in the fort having having longer limbs and being paler. So I think it is either

{a} Shriven means any Kolansii/Estobanii/etc the FA took control of
or
{b} Shriven refers to Kolansii/Estobanii/etc who have a small amount of FA blood, less than Watered. They are not automatically dedicated to the FA cause, like the boy in Paran's castle.

Which matches well the possible definitions of 'shrive...

Solid points.
It's a little unclear exactly how long the FA had been in power in Kolanse such that the entire human population could have some small diluted element of FA blood in them, but even so i think both defintions apply... basically Shriven is anyone under FA rule without sufficient FA blood to be considered Watered.

Quote

...there's a late section from Brother Grave near the Barrow where he reaches out and suppresses all his army's emotions (after the marines laugh), showing that the FA do use their Akrhast Korvalain magic to directly coerce their human/Shriven armies.

Absolutely, but it's done once at the Barrow and afai recall not at all at the Spire. Point being yes the FA do this, but not all the time.

Quote

name='D'rek'[/size]]

Abyss, on 10 February 2014 - 05:07 PM, said:

Quote

...............

Anyone know there is any supporting evidence that the reptilian beast which Karsa battles early on in The Bonehunters is a K'Chain Nah'ruk?

Thanks!!

As of TB it seemed likely based on the fact that the beast in question had a short tail and the only other description we had of KN was from Ganath as she was clubbed in the head by one later in the book.

Now that we've got the rest of the MBF i go with that K'Chain being either a Ja'an sentinel or more likely a particularly nasty Shi'gal assassin (and before anyone says it, yes, i know that the Shi'gal in DoD/TCG is different in a tall lean way, but the books say he was the first one to have wings, so i figure he's not going to be a big bulky monster... and he was also extremely tall (taller than a Kell Hunter), strong AND HAD A SHORT TAIL).

The timing was also fishy in that we had Karsa fighting the monster, Ganath being killed by confirmed Nah'ruk, and Iccy & Mappo finding Sorrit crucified all in close times, as if a bunch of Nah'ruk had emerged/awakened on 7C together and caused all these events. But those could still be all related without the beast Karsa fought being a Nah'ruk (or being a non-vanilla kind of Nah'ruk, for that matter).

We know the Che'malle were prone to experimenting with their drones and creating different types. We never saw anything to suggest the Nahruk did this, which would argue for the Fort KChain to be a Che'malle, chained by the Faceless Ones and woken up by the Whirlwind.
Given that the books suggest the Nahruk left the world after the Tiste invasion, it seems unlikely one particularly large specimine hung around until the human FO's showed up and bound it. Since the Chemale were still active, that seems more likely.

All of which is to say all we had to go on in TB was the description that included a 'short tail' and now we know that's not a deciding factor.

[Puck]

A couple of quotes re the Shriven, by far not all, but what I knew how to find fast.. I'll leave interpreting them to someone else, I got a cold and am not capable of thinking.

Quote

DoD

It was understood — it had always been understood — that no human was an equal to the Forkrul Assail. Proof was delivered a thousand times a day — and towards the end, ten thousand, as the pacification of the south kingdoms reached its blessed conclusion. Not once had the Shriven refused their submission; not once had a single pathetic human straightened in challenge. The hierarchy was unassailable.


tCG

Sister Belie swung round. 'Form a line! Form a line!' My voice will take their souls, and I will drive the Shriven forward, like wolves unleashed. They will ignore their wounds. Their fear. They will think only of slaughter. By the time my last soldier falls, the enemy will have ceased to be a military threat. This I swear!

[Paran] […] Ensorcelled voices were all very well, but if that was where all the discipline and courage came from... now, we can see the flaw in that, can't we?

[…], where waited masses of Shriven – Kolansii regulars. Solid enough soldiers, Erekala knew. Proficient if not spectacular, yet subject to the sorcery of the Forkrul Assail. Without the Pure, however, there would be no power sufficient to unleash in them any battle frenzy. Still, they would not buckle so long as the mixed-blood commanders held their nerve.

'It's only the mixed-bloods who're keeping them fighting at all,' Precious said under her breath.
'What? What did you say?'
'It's the mixed-bloods, feeding off this cursed warren – using it to bend the Kolansii to their will. I doubt they'd fight this hard without it.'

[…] – there were just too many Kolansii, and they fought with demonic valour.

[Gunth Mach] 'We kill and we kill still more, and yet they do not break. Destriant, these soldiers are under a geas. The pure-blood Forkrul Assail commands their souls.'
Kalyth slowly nodded. She could see that well enough – no army could withstand this kind of ceaseless slaughter. She knew that thousands of Kolansii had fallen. […]

[Abyss]

I stand corrected. Puck's quote fu is strong, and totally supports the point that FA Voicefuck their Shriven soldiers into battle most/all the time.

[D'rek]

Nice work, Puck!

Sounds like Shriven is just general term for the humans subjugated by the FA, with no FA blood in them. I guess Paran's specific referring to the kid in the fort as Shriven had to do with the fact that the kid came up from the south (other kids there are Estobanii who hid in the caves at the fort) rather than anything to do with it having any FA physiology.

[Egwene]

Thanks for all the help!!!

Here is what I have cobbled together from all of those points about the Shriven...

The Shriven referred to all those who were under Forkrul Assail control but without sufficient Forkrul Assail blood to be considered Watered. They were mostly indistinguishable from humans. Not all Shriven had Forkrul Assail blood in them. They were not automatically dedicated to the Forkrul Assail cause. The Forkrul Assail Pures controlled them with their voice.

The children of The Snake may have been Shriven, explaining how they survived as long as they did. It was said that during the pacification of the South Kingdoms, not once had the Shriven refused their submission.

It was also a name by which the Soldiers of the Forkrul Assail empire in Kolanse were known. It took a Forkrul Assail Pure to unleash battle frenzy in Shriven soldiers although mixed-blood commanders could keep them fighting beyond normal bounds of willingness and endurance.
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What do you think? Anything that I should change?

Edit: corrected a couple of spelling mistakes and added the bit about the voice...

This post has been edited by Egwene: 10 February 2014 - 09:06 PM

[Egwene]

Reference the other question...

It would be brilliant if SE would confirm one way or the other. There is just such a wealth of description for the 'whatever-it-is' creature involved in that fight... enough for an artist to be able to make a pretty good likeness, I wager. Shame for that to go to waste!

[Egwene]

D, on 10 February 2014 - 07:13 PM, said:

Nice work, Puck!

Sounds like Shriven is just general term for the humans subjugated by the FA, with no FA blood in them. I guess Paran's specific referring to the kid in the fort as Shriven had to do with the fact that the kid came up from the south (other kids there are Estobanii who hid in the caves at the fort) rather than anything to do with it having any FA physiology.

That was actually the passage that made me look up the definition given for Shrive. Seemed odd that this kid is apparently in the keep and identified by Paran as a Shriven. The kid even seems to be signalling the enemy (but I suppose Paran wouldn't really worry about the kid being able to give any useful information).

[D'rek]

Egwene, on 10 February 2014 - 09:12 PM, said:

D, on 10 February 2014 - 07:13 PM, said:

Nice work, Puck!

Sounds like Shriven is just general term for the humans subjugated by the FA, with no FA blood in them. I guess Paran's specific referring to the kid in the fort as Shriven had to do with the fact that the kid came up from the south (other kids there are Estobanii who hid in the caves at the fort) rather than anything to do with it having any FA physiology.

That was actually the passage that made me look up the definition given for Shrive. Seemed odd that this kid is apparently in the keep and identified by Paran as a Shriven. The kid even seems to be signalling the enemy (but I suppose Paran wouldn't really worry about the kid being able to give any useful information).

I don't think the kid was working for the FA, I think he was a kid liberated from the FA rule. Paran notes to Noto Boil that the kids they are protecting are finally starting to act like children again, now that they've been out of the FA subjugation for a while.

[Egwene]

I tought so, too, D'rek. It's the kite sequence that has me confused

[Abyss]

If Watered are confirmed part blood FA, what's the problem with Shriven including individuals with less FA blood? It explains both Paran's comments and how the Snake kids survived, without contradicting anything else.

[Puck]

Personally, I think 'Shriven' refers to anyone who's 1. not either a Pure or a Watered and 2. has been subjugated by the FA. Everyone else would fall under the 'those pesky foreigners' tab. It seems to have no particular connotation regarding FA blood, except that it's not enough to be called a Watered, and is used seemingly interchangeably with Kolansii.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

THere are Watered and High Watered, as well. As far as the entry for the Shriven, can't it just be something that says they may or may not share genetic material with the FA, and then include any source quotes that strongly suggest as much? Also, that part about the Snake perhaps being part FA is mostly conjecture, right? I don't know if that should go into the encyclopedia, unless there are passages that can somehow support the theory. Puck's quotes concerning the Shriven seem very relevant, and should be included.

[Abyss]

Spoilsport Stonny, on 11 February 2014 - 03:54 PM, said:

THere are Watered and High Watered, as well. As far as the entry for the Shriven, can't it just be something that says they may or may not share genetic material with the FA, and then include any source quotes that strongly suggest as much? Also, that part about the Snake perhaps being part FA is mostly conjecture, right? I don't know if that should go into the encyclopedia, unless there are passages that can somehow support the theory. Puck's quotes concerning the Shriven seem very relevant, and should be included.

We only know of one Snake kid... the ringer Badalle stalks in DoD, i forget her name... who was stated Watered or Shriven. The rest is pure conjecture.
Badalle's Mokra High Magery isn't really proof, since normal humans can have that.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Yeah her name was Brayderal. And its said that she came to the Snake a little later:

Quote

Brayderal, who had showed up to walk at the snake’s head only two days ago—maybe coming from back down the snake’s body, maybe coming from somewhere else—walked out to stand close to them, as if she wanted to be part of something. Something made up of Rutt and Held and Badalle. But whatever that something was, it had no room for Brayderal.

...

Besides, something about the tall, bony girl made Badalle uneasy. Her face was too white beneath all this sun. She reminded Badalle of the bone-skins—what were they called again? Quisiters? Quitters? Could be, yes, the Quitters, the bone-skins who stood taller than anyone else and from that height they saw everything and commanded everyone and when they said Starve and die, why, that’s just what everyone did.

And her high magery was more due to Icarium's new warrens, along the lines of Sinn and Grubb. Not that those would preclude any FAs, but not altogether the same thing, I gather.

[Puck]

Yeah, I'm a bit icky on the 'the children of the Snake may have FA blood within them' statement as well. There's no proof for that. Brayderal was the odd one out among them, which was why Badalle disliked her and hunter her eventually.

The Snake might have only survived this long because they turned into a personification of whatever aspect they were representing somewhere along the way. But that, too, is speculating, and if there's one thing I don't like about wikis it's when speculation is presented as fact. If you can't prove it with quotes, it's speculation.

This here..

Quote

Besides, something about the tall, bony girl made Badalle uneasy. Her face was too white beneath all this sun. She reminded Badalle of the bone-skins — what were they called again? Quisiters? Quitters? Could be, yes, the Quitters, the bone-skins who stood taller than anyone else and from that height they saw everything and commanded everyone and when they said Starve and die, why, that's just what everyone did.
If they knew about the Chal Managal, they would be angry. They might even chase after it and find the head, find Rutt and Badalle, and then do that quitting thing with the hands, the thing that broke the necks of people like Rutt and Badalle.

..sounds a lot like Brayderal being noticeably different from the rest of the children.

That said, though, not all of the children are from Kolanse proper, and as such there could be some with FA blood among those from Kolanse. The FA did not subjugate all the people at once, they started with the Kolansii and went outwards from there, and Badalle seems to be from one of those places further away from Kolanse proper. According to her the FA came AFTER the drought, so somehow I don't think that between the FA arriving and the children leaving there was enough time for many mixed-bloods to appear, especially those who'd be old enough to mix in with the kids - Brayderal being an exception, who may or may not have come down from Kolanse with the other FA.

Quote

[Badalle] […] The sun made the world white, bitter with purity. This was the perfection so cherished by the Quitters. But it was not the Quitters who cut down our world. They only came in answer to the death of our gods — our faith — when the rains stopped, when the last green withered and died. They came in answer to our prayers. Save us! Save us from ourselves!

Simultaneously, the drought seems to be a good reason for why the general population did not or could not resist the FA.

If that makes sense, anyway.

Edit: Spoilsport Stonny was faster, haha.

This post has been edited by Puck: 11 February 2014 - 05:51 PM

[Egwene]

I have taken out the reference to the children of the snake. This is what the article looks like now:

Shriven referred to all those who were under Forkrul Assail control but without sufficient Forkrul Assail blood to be considered Watered. They were mostly indistinguishable from humans. Not all Shriven had Forkrul Assail blood in them. They were not automatically dedicated to the Forkrul Assail cause. The Forkrul Assail Pures controlled them with their voice.

It was said that during the pacification of the South Kingdoms, not once had the Shriven refused their submission.

It was also a name by which the Soldiers of the Forkrul Assail empire in Kolanse were known. It took a Forkrul Assail Pure to unleash battle frenzy in Shriven soldiers although mixed-blood commanders could keep them fighting beyond normal bounds of willingness and endurance.

[Egwene]

I will keep on editing on the Shriven article as more material is brought to my attention. On the K'Chain Nah'ruk... if anyone bumps into SE... do ask him for me, will you?!

..and on to another quest... (now that I know where I can get answers to all my problems...

At the beginning of tCG, Thulas Shorn is called 'Revenant' by the impaled T'lan Imass. Any idea why?