[Stormcat]

I am not sure everyone would agree with that. Felisin went through hell. Imagine at 14 seeing your neighbors head torn from her shoulders? That is just the start of what happened to her. Anger is just one feeling that goes with that kind of abuse. When she snapped at or said cruel things to people my heart hurt for her and them. Imagine the shell you have to grow to live through abuse that you can only dream of.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

And as far as the head ripping that Stormcat points at, that was done by the guy who was supposed to protect her. Is Felisin supposed to feel some kind of respect, trust or protectiveness from this guy? He just decapitated an old lady with a chain, and it wasn't pretty. No wonder she wanted nothing to do with him.

[tiam]

But she does want something to do with him. We see from her POV that she uses her body to get her, Heboric and Baudin into better conditions on the ship so they dont die in the crossing. From the very beginning she cares or atleast acknowledges Baudins usefulness.

[Studlock]

People tend to to forget (for some strange, probably-nothing-to-do-with-gender-related reason) that absolutely no one tells her shit, no one tells her the plan. She's on her own, and despite this she still trying to protect Heboric and 'known terrible person' Baudin with the only thing shit can still kind of control (her body if you're wondering, I'd also like to point out she's still a teenager at this point, and one who has lived a fairly pampered life...and is still trying everything to stay alive, let's be honest NONE of us would've lasted as long as her so I kind of laugh off 'every decision she makes is bad'...is she alive? Yes. Did she still try her best to save her asshats companions (except my main man Kulp, who is not an asshat)? Yes. Is she is wholly better situation than the hellhole her sister threw her into? Yes...She seemed to be doing just fucking fine).

I honestly want to know how it's fucking possible anyone 'sides' with Baudin or Heboric. One's an assassin and also thought it'd be a good idea to have sex with a very young women despite said young women literally selling her body and being traumatized by the experience (and is essentially a round about way for saying 'you're still a whore'...seriously fuck Baudin,) and the other a nihilistic old man who later becomes crazy because he decided to touch a giant jade finger. Listen I like both characters, I really do, Felisin and co storyline is just a notch below chain of dogs for me but come on now there is literally know way you can't sympathize with two men (one literally being a terrible person) who are just as assholish if not more given their knowledge that Felisin lacks, as Felisin. The facts are she a young women trying to make the best of the worst situation possible as well as trying to help two human beings who become more and more distant and belligerent toward her and multiply times in the book she goes above and beyond to try to save them as well as herself just as they do her. If Felisin annoys then everyone in the group should as well because there all as acidic and destructive as Felisin can be, just in different (more socially acceptable?) ways.

[Phantom1]

I understand all of your points fully. I am not suggesting that beaudin or Heboric are better people than her. Felicia has gone through and indeed she has survived but does that excuse her total careless attitude. It can probably excuse most of it but all of it? She has been through hell but even though she has she was ok in that situation in the sense that she never actually wanted or made am effort to get of it. She first got into it because of the two men she felt responsible for and then she stayed cause she truly thought Bennett was the best partner possible. She frustrated me because she decided to settle. Felisin seems like a strong woman and she should have tried to get out of there some how and keep her mind sharp in irder to do so. I am aware whatever she decided enabled her to survive but if she would have decide to trust even a little the two guys who have been around all this time, they could all three have figured out a way out and sooner. Bahrain even said it, you can't get someone out if they don't want to be out. As for sleeping with Felisin, I have to say I despised that he even considered accepting her offer, before that point, I have to say, I thought he cared about her. But doing something that ruined her from the get go was a selfish move. Howeve I didn't find it strange that SE felt the need to mention that he was more careful and softer than the other ones (softer in the action sense not the state sense), that made me wonder if he did somehow cared about her a little.

[Stormcat]

Meh. He had sex with a minor but he was gentle so...
I think this illustrates the lack of understanding when it comes to victims. It is not always as easy as why didn't he/she just leave, get out, better their situation. It is not always so black and white. Being that she is just a child makes it even harder. Many people cover up for their abusers and self medicate to deal with what is going on. It's easy to say a person should do something.

[GamerKady]

She was a definite victim. She was forced into a life that shouldn't have been, and then she got burdened with Sha'ik. If I were her, I wouldn't have done anything different.

[Kanese S's]

Yep. She's like 14 or 15.

I doubt most people on here, or maybe even any, would fare better than she did in that situation.

The thing about abuse victims is that they're not always saints. In fact, usually they're not. That doesn't mean you shouldn't feel sympathy, as you absolutely should. But it doesn't work out like in uplifting movies where victims always triumph over the emotional hurt that's been done. When people are hurt so much, they often throw up walls that can make it really hard for those around them to get along with them. Baudin might be great at protecting the group, physically, and Heboric might really care for Felisin, but they're no psychologists. Part of the tragedy of Felisin is that nobody who is with her is really equipped to be able to give her the help she needs.

Quite frankly, I find the fact that some people apparently hate her to be deeply disturbing.

[Kruppe's snacky cakes]

I don't know that I'd characterize her critics as hateful. For me, her parts were just a skin-crawlingly uncomfortable read. Presumably, what we were supposed to feel, so good writing on Erikson's part. I was rooting for her every step of the way. But she just kept digging herself deeper and deeper into the pit that had been created for her. Just once, I wanted her to make a decision based on hope rather than despair. Just once. But she was so broken, and so ultimately complicit in further breaking herself, it just became harder and harder to sympathize with her. Of course, in real life, you'd never give up on someone in this situation. But I think it's kosher to break out the harsher critiques for fictional characters who exist solely for our reading enjoyment...

[Phantom1]

Quote

Just once, I wanted her to make a decision based on hope rather than despair. Just once.

Before anybody start thinking I'm a heartless person who hate felisin. This quote represent exactly how I feel. I do not hate her and I do understand how she acts and I know she is a victim and that she has been through so much. I also agree with the fact that she's got out of this situation probably better than others.

All I was trying to explain with my poor writing skills is that I was hoping very much for redemption when it came to her. I wanted her to try and see that she doesn't need to keep doing what she had to do in the mines that she was, éventuellement though not fully safe, safer. I wanted her to magically realize that Bennett wasn't good for her. I agree I was probably going for something unrealistic and movie like but seeing her struggle like this over and over again, in addition to hating everybody around her even those who could potentially help. It would only upset me because I hope that if these things happened to a person I know, or myself, I would wish for them to try and hope for better. I just felt that felisin gave up at some point on herself on the ones around you and on her life and that is what frustrated me, that she gave up. Because, by giving up she also gave up on he possibility of hurting less and less everyday until she laughs out of joy instead of madness (like she so many times pointed out).

I know she is strong and I want her to use this strength to understand her pain and maybe one day hope for better, I just want what's best for her.

[Kanese S's]

I think the key phrase in your post was "magically realize." Lots of people don't just magically get better, or magically choose hope rather than despair. Lots of people would need serious help after undergoing even parts of Felisin's ordeal. And there's no one to help her. Not that no one tried and tries, but no one is able to, because it's not an easy thing. That's the tragedy. Without anyone being able to help her, she's never going to get better.

Edit: woops, forgot that this is only the DG forum.

This post has been edited by Kanese S's: 02 March 2014 - 03:42 AM

[worry]

You're right on the money there, Kan-Man (that's my adorable new nickname for you), but keep in mind this is the DG forum!

[Illuvatar81]

I've read most of the comments here and it seems like this is quite the emotional topic, starting with that please understand I don't mean to offend with my own response but perhaps add a new perspective.

We are a complicated creation, taking for the example that felisin and all the characters if MBotF are just as dimensional and reactive as we humans are and that are personality makeup(soul)is consistently similar than we can proceed to breaking down the issue.

People are more than just a by product of their environment/upbringing. We cannot judge or evaluate right or wrong in the motivations of others based solely on what situations they've been put in or ways they've been treated by others.

Let's look at two girls, one girl is raised by a pair of loving parents, in a home with loving siblings. Intellectually challenged and given familial motivations. Her parents tragically taken from her at the age of fourteen, siblings abandoned her sold into slavery and abused/mistreated, constantly lied: essentially given over to the real world on her own, and without(to her knowledge) aid of any kind. The other girl is raised by her parents until she is able to leave home on her own(16), to be exposed without assistance (by her own choice), because she everyday of her life just wasn't really wanted by her parents. Sure they fed her and clothes her and gave her a home and family, but everyday she was exposed to thee thoughts and words of her family that spoke of how unwanted she was and how disappointing she is.

In these examples both girls grow up, but the one, well you know, and the other well let's say she happily marries and is kind to others and not rude or mean. So from this example do we than judge the second girl and say her situation was "easier" or "not as formulative of a mean spiteful person". Surely not. You see when it comes to judgement or evaluation of any kind we can only rightly judge based upon the actions of that person to others, not the actions put upon that person. We cannot see inside of people and judge how gravely or or sparingly the actions forced upon them shape or affect them. How "resilient" a child is or how much they are "changed" by their circumstances cannot be seen or evaluated, because it will be different for each person. Ever seen two children raised I. The exact same home by the exact same parents. They do not behave in the same manner, they are individuals, and can likewise only be "judged" or "evaluated" based on the actions they foist upon others.

I hope this was understandable, I'm writing on my iPhone, and I hope it adds something to the dialog, people are ao much more complex than: child raised in x home turns into y adult.

[jonny_anonymous]

Can't she be both?

[Illuvatar81]

I think that absolutely she can, but judgement come only from one aspect I believe, the only one that matters.

[Gorefest]

I'm not sure what you are arguing here now, to be honest. Are you saying we shouldn't take anyone's background and environment into account when judging or evaluating their actions? Or that we should?

[Studlock]

I think they're arguing for judging someone solely by ones action without taking into account both that persons history, and the current circumstance. If so I highly, highly disagree. People are as much as there own selves as they are of the environment they were raised in, and the situation they're in.

If not, then good we have reached consensus!

[Jhag Sidean]

She said cruel things, trying to cope with the horrors she had been through, all in all a normal reaction.

As someone looking in (or in this case reading) i thought sometimes thought "oh why did you have to do that?" I wished she would have made some better choices.
This is also one of the things i like about MBOTF, they didn't always do what i deemed the right thing, or pick the smartest option (according to me)
Sometimes it worked out for them, sometimes it didn't, but i got so into alot of the characthers, that i wished the best for them.

[SwiftBenjamin]

Felisin starts out a whiney depressive jerk and then evolves into a hugely arrogant jerk, but I don't like her in either skin.

[Azath Housecat]

Erikson's characters don't easily fall into categories because they don't develop in a linear way-- moments of awareness or epiphany don't necessarily lead to permanent change. Any number of times, a character may behave in a more positive or negative way & then revert unpredictably. Prepare to feel ambivalence

This post has been edited by aimzzz: 16 June 2015 - 11:19 PM