[Garic]

Wow, thread resurrect...I believe this is my first post, so forgive me.

The Felisin story thread almost broke me. She didn't chose to be in the situation she was put in. She was a broken girl when her sister tossed her out. An 'innocent'. Does one choose their life when they are born? Are the to be blamed because the are born noble...or poor...etc. How would a person respond to that, everything that they had known, had been taught, now a torturous(sp?) memory. Rage, anger, self hate, self destruction. Everything you had known was shattered...would one really react to that with the compassion we all know and love from this series? Honestly, I think not. I am not familiar with spoiler restrictions (I have read the series multiple times by now, and am still obsessed). Don't really know hot to finish this since it is in Deadhouse Gates, but i will say i love Felisin,

Spoiler

and the continuation of her storyline....since i am inept and unable to figure spoiler tags right now, i will just say pg. 985, House of Chains, USA paperback.

With everything in this series, this was the toughest for me. I almost quit reading....quite glad i didn't.

This post has been edited by Garic: 02 July 2015 - 08:26 PM

[worry]

The Spoiler rule is, by and large, don't post any.

[Garic]

Wow you are on it. Hopefully i didn't spoil anything. If i did, i'm sure the mods will smite me(or put a spoiler tag....or something).

[worry]

Your post is 90% fine, everything before the '...' is A-Ok. When you talk about HoC, you've reached Spoiler territory, even if it's hints and intimations rather than specifics. 99.9% of the time, thoughts about future books should be saved for that subforum. Also, there's a Spoiler tag under the Other Styles button if you desperately need it.

Example (using, at random, Old Yeller):

Spoiler

If I told you "Man, I was really sad at the end of Old Yeller. It wrecked me!" I haven't said anything specific, but that's still enough of a giveaway to be a Spoiler.

Anyway, welcome to the board! You'll get the hang of it soon enough.

[Garic]

Cool. Thanks. I will remember

[Los Mul]

There was a few times that I wanted to give Felisin a good kick in the teeth.

[Andorion]

Los Mul, on 23 September 2015 - 11:13 PM, said:

There was a few times that I wanted to give Felisin a good kick in the teeth.

First read or second?

[Gorefest]

It's Baudin that needed a good kick in the teeth. Why not simply come out and tell her why he's there? Always found that bit highly frustrating.

[Los Mul]

Andorion, on 24 September 2015 - 01:53 AM, said:

Los Mul, on 23 September 2015 - 11:13 PM, said:

There was a few times that I wanted to give Felisin a good kick in the teeth.

First read or second?

First read-through!

I just felt sorry for Heboric having to deal with her treating everybody like crap for the nth amount of months they were out in that bloody desert for, haha.

[Andorion]

Los Mul, on 26 September 2015 - 02:41 AM, said:

Andorion, on 24 September 2015 - 01:53 AM, said:

Los Mul, on 23 September 2015 - 11:13 PM, said:

There was a few times that I wanted to give Felisin a good kick in the teeth.

First read or second?

First read-through!

I just felt sorry for Heboric having to deal with her treating everybody like crap for the nth amount of months they were out in that bloody desert for, haha.

Yeah your reaction is pretty normal for a first read. Just keep in mind all the things that had been done to her. Losing family, all wealth and comfort, being raped and then sent to do slave labour, ... For a teenage girl who had been kept protected, these were all traumatic events that were bound to evoke an adverse reaction.

Oh and keep reading.

[Caira]

Really great topic to discuss! I'm happy to find it


From my perspective, Felisin was a victim, definitely. The longer I read, the better I liked her character. For me she is totally understandable, taking into account all the circumstances which made her, being thrown to the otataral mine, selling herself in a desperate attemps to survive, seeking a substitute of care in the twisted relationship with Beneth. And however the Felisin may be perceived by her companions, the fact is that even after everything she is gone through, she didn't become cruel. She is just impassive, closed in herself, cause it is her only way to defend and persevere. There is one really good scene in which Felisin thinks about a kind of 'closing' herself to men to which Beneth was giving her, in order to not letting them taking her any more than the body. Taking all that into account, as well as the fact, that she was selling herself also to help Heboric and Baudin (o, Heboric! There are more things I want to mention concerning him, and will below, having the opportunity ), the final shape of her personality is far better than might have been. She might have been cruel, revegeful, cold, but instead she is mostly just closed, lonely and bitter. And all the things she's doing is only throwing malicious comments to Baudin and Heboric. Ok, there is a scene when she is attempting to kill Baudin, but there is deeper relation between them (resulting not only from Beneth's death, but also from other factors, as not including her in the escape plans, and other things).

P.S. What really annoyed me in DG was Heboric and his attitude to Felisin. The fact that Baudin was unable to understand her is acceptable for me, but Heboric, older and educated, should have seen through bitter comments and see that she was trying to save his damn life or make it easier more than once, in the only way she might influence something. And instead of some gratitute or pity, all she's receiving is despise and disrespect. The scene in which it is revealed that he and Baudin decided to escape from the mine without her make me really dislike Heboric. He could even hate Felisin, but she was trying to help him, so she deserved to be rescued, she earned it. The fact that he and Baudin didn't tell her that her efforts to help them was unnecessary (and let herself to continue allowing Beneth to trade her) finally confirmed my opinion on him. Even at the end of DG he still cannot understand her, but at least he feels some regret for her. Maybe he will redeem himself in the future books. Maybe.

This post has been edited by Caira: 03 November 2015 - 08:43 PM

[iso9001]

Although sometimes I felt like it would be good to shake her a little bit while reading about her, I completely "understood" her most of the time and felt sorry for her. Not everybody can handle those events that happened to her.

[Kanese S's]

Gorefest, on 24 September 2015 - 11:20 AM, said:

It's Baudin that needed a good kick in the teeth. Why not simply come out and tell her why he's there? Always found that bit highly frustrating.

Seriously. Agreed 100%

[Kanese S's]

Caira, on 03 November 2015 - 08:40 PM, said:

Really great topic to discuss! I'm happy to find it


From my perspective, Felisin was a victim, definitely. The longer I read, the better I liked her character. For me she is totally understandable, taking into account all the circumstances which made her, being thrown to the otataral mine, selling herself in a desperate attemps to survive, seeking a substitute of care in the twisted relationship with Beneth. And however the Felisin may be perceived by her companions, the fact is that even after everything she is gone through, she didn't become cruel. She is just impassive, closed in herself, cause it is her only way to defend and persevere. There is one really good scene in which Felisin thinks about a kind of 'closing' herself to men to which Beneth was giving her, in order to not letting them taking her any more than the body. Taking all that into account, as well as the fact, that she was selling herself also to help Heboric and Baudin (o, Heboric! There are more things I want to mention concerning him, and will below, having the opportunity ), the final shape of her personality is far better than might have been. She might have been cruel, revegeful, cold, but instead she is mostly just closed, lonely and bitter. And all the things she's doing is only throwing malicious comments to Baudin and Heboric. Ok, there is a scene when she is attempting to kill Baudin, but there is deeper relation between them (resulting not only from Beneth's death, but also from other factors, as not including her in the escape plans, and other things).

P.S. What really annoyed me in DG was Heboric and his attitude to Felisin. The fact that Baudin was unable to understand her is acceptable for me, but Heboric, older and educated, should have seen through bitter comments and see that she was trying to save his damn life or make it easier more than once, in the only way she might influence something. And instead of some gratitute or pity, all she's receiving is despise and disrespect. The scene in which it is revealed that he and Baudin decided to escape from the mine without her make me really dislike Heboric. He could even hate Felisin, but she was trying to help him, so she deserved to be rescued, she earned it. The fact that he and Baudin didn't tell her that her efforts to help them was unnecessary (and let herself to continue allowing Beneth to trade her) finally confirmed my opinion on him. Even at the end of DG he still cannot understand her, but at least he feels some regret for her. Maybe he will redeem himself in the future books. Maybe.

Haven't met you before, but I like you.

[Caira]

Kanese S, on 28 December 2015 - 12:07 AM, said:

Haven't met you before, but I like you.

I agree with your views on Felisin in posts in this topic. Btw., how about Heboric? At least in the DG, cause I'm just starting the House of Chains and don't know if he will change in any way in the future.

[Gorefest]

I largely agree with your assessments, apart from your comment on Heboric not realising that she is actually trying to save his life. I think he understands this well enough. In fact, in my view it is his realisation of the fact that she is saving him and making his life in the camp easier that makes him resentful towards her, because he feels that it should have been the other way around but he is powerless to change the dynamic. So he feels he failed her and resents her for confronting him with his weakness and making him a dependent.

[Caira]

Gorefest, on 31 December 2015 - 02:45 PM, said:

I largely agree with your assessments, apart from your comment on Heboric not realising that she is actually trying to save his life. I think he understands this well enough. In fact, in my view it is his realisation of the fact that she is saving him and making his life in the camp easier that makes him resentful towards her, because he feels that it should have been the other way around but he is powerless to change the dynamic. So he feels he failed her and resents her for confronting him with his weakness and making him a dependent.

I understand your point, such attitude it's something that factually might partially suit Heboric - however, for me it seems not compliant with how H. behaves in DG. Especially when he didn't include Felisin in the escape plans and, after some time, treats her with some kind of disrespect. Something like: "I thought you were better", with stronger virtues, not as easily accessible to Beneth and others (what is, for me, harmfur for Felisin, a noble, sensitive child thrown into slavery ship and slavery mine, influenced by the circumstances, loneliness and attempts to survive/obtain survival for companions). For me it seems that both Heboric and Baudin expected certain strong morals from her, and were disappointed with the results, being blind for all the circumstances - something maybe understandable in case of just-simple-skilled-warrior Baudin and disappointing me in case of Heboric.


What's more, Heboric could factually influednce something - he might have told Felisin that her attempts were vain, since the better treatment he got was granted to him for what Baudin did to guards/Beneth, not Felisin. Instead, he is silent and let's her act with this misdirected desire to help him. According to you, is there any explanation for him for this? I'm asking, cause it's an interesting topic to discuss (and I'm happy to find someone wanting to discuss ).

[Gorefest]

The question is if it would actually do any good if Heboric would tell her something like that. Felisin is a very hurt and damaged young girl, who is shielding herself from everyone in order to avoid more hurt. She tells herself that she is sleeping with Beneth to help Heboric and Baudin to make it look a noble sacrifice, but Heboric (rightly or wrongly) sees that as a 'convenient' excuse for herself, to not have to face that she is just doing it to punish and hurt herself deliberately. If Heboric would tell her that her help was never needed because Baudin was already providing, what would that do to Felesin's state of mind? I think Heboric simply doesn't know how to connect to her and possibly he also doesn't want to expose Baudin's mission.

[Caira]

There is some point in it. I'll try to find in the DG the fragments with Heboric/Felisin dialogues and try to reread them from that perspective and check it for myself. It sounds interesting, however at this moment I'm not sure if he tried to understand her position so fully and completely, at least before she became sha'ik, and before that last discussion in the DG (the one concerning amoung others her "daughter"; the one in which H. felt some pity for her, at least).

However, I think that telling Felisin the truth about uselessness of her sacrifice with simultaneously letting her to have any hope on escape (with revealing anything about Baudin's mission, even without revealing his identity itself; and doing it before the moment in which she was completely addicted to Beneth and drugs, since afterwards it was too late and the risk that she will thwart the plans was too high) and giving her any care might have and would have change a lot. Providing her with any hope. Not letting her alone, and than feeling disappointment by her choices.

Not exposing Baudin's mission also seems as a mistake to me. Maybe not Heboric's, but Baudin's.

This post has been edited by Caira: 31 December 2015 - 04:58 PM

[Gorefest]

Yeah, I made a similar remark a while ago up-thread. I don't understand at all why Baudin is so cagey about why he is there. Surely it would have made her feel less desperate and alone?