[Caira]

Yes, it would make the escape possible. Without knowing that there are chances for getting away, Felisin has to try to live on her own. Maybe at the very beginning it was technically impposible to tell F. anything where she will be alone (as far as I remember, they were chained to benches of the ship), but after, in the mine? Not mentioning that it would be impossible to rescue her without revealing her the plan, unless he planned to make her unconscious or something.

I hoped it would be explained in the future books (e.g. that it was the order of Tavore), but if you are after reading all the books, I understand it's not That's a pity.

[iso9001]

Gorefest, on 31 December 2015 - 05:05 PM, said:

Yeah, I made a similar remark a while ago up-thread. I don't understand at all why Baudin is so cagey about why he is there. Surely it would have made her feel less desperate and alone?

I believe it is because that if she learned why he was there, that he was sent by her sister, she would be shaken and even broken to a state that she would refuse to go with him. I think Baudin didn't tell her because he wanted her on constant anger so that she does not give in. But this is just my theory, I have no proof for this

Regards

[worry]

We can also not discount that Baudin is a damaged person as well. There's a legacy (of the Talons) on his shoulders, he's lived a brutal life already, and he's been given an impossible mission that is, essentially, deep cover. And he has to do a lot of brutal things to complete that mission, whether he likes it or not. Becoming a monster, so to speak, was part of his duty. His imperfections are ugly -- maybe some even unforgivable -- but they weren't born of nothing.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

worry, on 31 December 2015 - 09:58 PM, said:

We can also not discount that Baudin is a damaged person as well. There's a legacy (of the Talons) on his shoulders, he's lived a brutal life already, and he's been given an impossible mission that is, essentially, deep cover. And he has to do a lot of brutal things to complete that mission, whether he likes it or not. Becoming a monster, so to speak, was part of his duty. His imperfections are ugly -- maybe some even unforgivable -- but they weren't born of nothing.

This. Look at the way Baudin goes down in order to complete his mission - it's an awful way to go but he does it for the sake of the mission he undertook. Imperfect he certainly is, but I think there are definitely positive things about him that go widely overlooked.

[Caira]

Gorefest, on 31 December 2015 - 04:21 PM, said:

The question is if it would actually do any good if Heboric would tell her something like that. Felisin is a very hurt and damaged young girl, who is shielding herself from everyone in order to avoid more hurt. She tells herself that she is sleeping with Beneth to help Heboric and Baudin to make it look a noble sacrifice, but Heboric (rightly or wrongly) sees that as a 'convenient' excuse for herself, to not have to face that she is just doing it to punish and hurt herself deliberately. If Heboric would tell her that her help was never needed because Baudin was already providing, what would that do to Felesin's state of mind? I think Heboric simply doesn't know how to connect to her and possibly he also doesn't want to expose Baudin's mission.

I was wondering about it and reread the Felisin&Heboric chapters in DG.Taking all into account, I don't think that Heboric was nottelling Felisin the truth to save her or her mind. The first scene with F. inthe mine is the one in which she is giving herself to Beneth for the day-offfor Heboric and finally obtains for him the transfer to work on the surface. Thanshe is telling this to Heboric - and even in this discussion he doesn'tunderstand her and show some kind of "sense of moral superiority" (itseems such to me), with some rethorical questions as (mine re-translation toEnglish, so may not be entirely complaint with the wording in the originalDG): "Do you want me to believe that you like the life you chosen for yourself,girl? During nights such as this one I'm wondering about it", when, infact, she was not given too much choice... And that choice was still influenced by Heboric's existence and Felisin's attempts to help. There is the scene in which F. is notyet broken and bitter - it seems to me that at this moment minimal care, orgratitude, might have changed everything, but Heboric doesn't show or tellanything like that.

Also, in the same evening Baudin and Heboric are discussing somethingsecretely, without Felisin and Felisin already knows that there is some kind ofrelation between Baudin and Beneth. So I understand that Baudinis already providing guards/Beneth with his own services. If so, Heboric should be aware that he has some power to stop F. on her way to self-destruction.

In the mine Heboric seldom talks to Felisin; in fact, the young guard Pella is aperson having more sympathy and showing more care to her. One of mine problemswith Heboric is the fact that without Pella's help, he would have escapedwithout Felisin. Even when she asks about not including her in the plans, hesays something like (mine re-translation again:)): "Until today it seemed thatyou made Skullcup your heaven. I didn't think you would like to escape."and "Beneth cared for you." To me it's showing disdain, and completelyunjustified in these circumstances. I don't think Heboric is evil; he's just largelydevoid of empathy or sensitivity which would make him able to understand. At this best moments he regrets Felisin, but he never understands her.

Finally, I still don't like Heboric - but maybe in the future books he will do something which will make me see him in a new light.



I mostly agree with worry in case of Baudin. Or there is also a possibility that he in fact had good intentions and was skilled in his job, but unsophisticated and less smart than most of Erickson's characters, so the way in which he follows the "rescue" plan was a result of simple human mistakes.

This post has been edited by Caira: 01 January 2016 - 10:21 PM

[WinterPhoenix]

Heboric was from the beginning of my first read my favourite of the three, my re-read did absolutely nothing to change my opinion of the group. Felisin is quite obviously a victim, a victim of a world that cares little for her and less for her naivete, a victim of her sister's unchecked ambition and of Baudin's incompetence - in certain areas. Nonetheless she is also quite obviously cruel, that her cruelty is edged by mitigating circumstances of a most tragic nature, does nothing to blunt her toxicity for me. Felisn's self-destruction within the Otataral Mines is inevitable from the start, I am incredulous at the idea that Heboric could ever have done anything to prevent it, there is in my opinion nothing he could have said that she would ever have listened to. Her ideas of self-worth , however fragile they might be became entirely dependent upon the delusion that by selling herself both body and soul she was ensuring the survival of her and her companions, Heboric wracked by guilt at his knowledge of the intentions behind her actions comes only to regret her in every single way. It was not for him to shatter her illusions, had she believed him it would have destroyed her, whats more she almost certainly would have held to her course of self-deception in spite of anything Heboric could have done. Felisin from the beginning is a character consumed by a righteous indignation, and all-consuming rage directed towards her sister, and certainly if there is any one person to blame for the tragedy of Felisin it is Tavore. More importantly though, any possible ability on Heboric's part to curtail her path of self-destruction pails into insignificance next to Baudin's ability to do the same, after all he need only tell her why he is there! Certainly I could see Felisin railing against him still, any agent of her sisters after all will be someone she does not trust, but if Felisin had been made aware of the full import of her sisters decision to use a member of the Talons to effect a clandestine rescue, she might never have forgave Tavore but she would certainly have gone along with the plan.