[Dragnipurake]

Finished the book a couple of days ago. ICE's writing is very clunky and appears to have regressed from Stonewielder and Orb, Sceptre and Throne but loved the story/plot.

Kallor's curse from MOI now makes sense. He is azathanai but never ascends or becomes a god. Without the curse, wonder if he was to be the original god of war.

[Defiance]

Hmm, I never thought of Kallor being an Azathanai. While it might help explain some things, the immediate problem with that idea is the fact that Kallor ages. He has to burn his alchemy candles so that he doesn't go all T'lan Imass. If he was an Azathanai, I don't think he'd need to do that, given that they can (presumably) take whatever shape they wish and age is more or less irrelevant for them. Of course, aging could just be another aspect of the curse placed upon him.

[Cause]

The problem is he is a hundred thousand year old and counting immortal (in practice) bad ass who kills dragons with his sword and on the continent on Jackaruku he is worshiped as the evil god king by ignorant peasants and worshiped by the shadawum. According to everything we know about ascendancy he qualifies. He was once King and then Reaver of High House Chains for Kallor's sake.

The curse makes very little sense at this point. His curses failed so why don't the elder gods curses fail especially given that as he points out Nightchill and Dragnipur are destroyed. And as I point out he is in fact an ascendant.

I also dont understand why as he says he cant commit suicide.

[1nikhil9]

In Memories of Ice, K'rul said that Kallor was human.

The curses were that he would live forever and would age; he would never ascend; and each time he rises, he shall fall.

Maybe the curses prevent him from committing suicide?

[Spoilsport Stonny]

I'd like to know the part where K'rul says he's human. I got these from the Encyclopedia.

Quote

K'rul: 'Know this: you, Kallor Eiderann Tes’thesula, shall know mortal life unending. Mortal, in the ravages of age, in the pain of wounds and the anguish of despair. In dreams brought to ruin. In love withered. In the shadow of Death’s spectre, ever a threat to end what you will not relinquish.’ Draconus:'Kallor Eiderann Tes’thesula, you shall never ascend.’

Nightchill: 'Kallor Eiderann Tes’thesula, each time you rise, you shall then fall. All that you achieve shall turn to dust in your hands. As you have wilfully done here, so it shall be in turn visited upon all that you do.’

K'rul: '‘Three voices curse you...It is done.’

MoI, UK Trade, p.15

Quote

'...was anything but perfect, for his face and body were as ravaged as those of a mortal man who was nearing a century of life.' - MoI, UK Trade, p.71-2

IF (<--Big 'if') Kallor is indeed human, then this makes sense for a book set in Assail in which all the tyrants are merely "playing games", and Nightchill's above quote about dust makes even more sense, via the dedication of the T'lan Imass and the Crimson Guard and some theories about them regarding their vow.\:

Quote

but for the High King it was clear to all that such contests were but passing games, attended to with distraction and barely veiled disinterest. - MoI, UK Trade, p.71-2

Is the High King returning to his original kingdom perhaps? Was the curse meant just for Kallor or did it apply to the empires he built, thus the reason for not having a current empire, even though we know he's capable of raising an army to fight for him, no matter the cause?

[D'rek]

There's a possible complication of the High King mentioned in FoD being Kallor, if so that throws a ton of wrenches into anything we might devise here. So for argument's sake I'm going to ignore this.

Therefore, let's say Kallor is indeed human, or at least humanesque, ie some sort of Thel Akai/Eres/Imass descendant like all the other common mortal races on Wu (Jheck, Nerek, Human, Barghast, Rhivi, etc etc etc).


Curses on Kallor:

Quote

K'rul: 'Know this: you, Kallor Eiderann Tes’thesula, shall know mortal life unending. Mortal, in the ravages of age, in the pain of wounds and the anguish of despair. In dreams brought to ruin. In love withered. In the shadow of Death’s spectre, ever a threat to end what you will not relinquish.’

This one we know has been true and holds true, still. Kallor lives a mortal life, so he ages and needs his century candles to stay fit. Furthermore he can't commit suicide, possibly he can't even die at all.

Quote

Draconus:'Kallor Eiderann Tes’thesula, you shall never ascend.’

IMO, him being Reaver of King of HHC doesn't mean he has ascended. Kallor has a great many skills and strengths, but he still ages, he can't necessarily break through barriers by sheer will and doesn't seem to have any more strength than a very fit human would. And you can take a position in the Fatid of the Pantheon without ascending.

Quote

Nightchill: 'Kallor Eiderann Tes’thesula, each time you rise, you shall then fall. All that you achieve shall turn to dust in your hands. As you have wilfully done here, so it shall be in turn visited upon all that you do.’

This one is arguable. Kallor in TtH thinks of the many kingdoms he raised and which then fell, and so on. Open questions are whether his Jacurukuan kingdom was his first. It is hard to say if this curse is still true, though - the only thing close to him building something is B&B, where his followers turned on him but with good reason, and also where the shaduwam seemed to welcome him back without conflict.



Kallor's curses on the EGs:

Quote

’K'rul, you shall fade from the world, you shall be forgotten.

This, we have seen, only occured temporarily and K'rul was restored.

Quote

Draconus, what you create shall be turned upon you.

This happened completely, though Draconus made it not so bad for himself by reducing Dragnipur's finality.

Quote

And as for you, woman, unhuman hands shall tear your body into pieces, upon a field of battle, yet you shall know no respite - thus, my curse upon you, Sister of Cold Nights.

This one also definitely happened.



So, I wonder if perhaps Draconus' and Nightchill's curses faded after Kallor's curses on them were fulfilled, meaning Kallor can now ascend (or is getting closer to being able to do so) and can begin to build things again, but since K'rul escaped Kallor's curse, K'rul's the curse of mortality continues to apply. It'd be interesting if Kallor was testing the fading of Nightchill's curse in B&B, and when that seemed to be going well tested himself against K'rul's curse?

[worry]

They should have called this book High King Through the Wilderness.

[Silk]

unless somehow in the cursing Kallor was attributed the aspect that is failure.... i.e he is the azathanai of failure.....

if we can have an aspect of protection why not one for failure

[Abyss]

Silk, on 21 March 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

unless somehow in the cursing Kallor was attributed the aspect that is failure.... i.e he is the azathanai of failure.....

if we can have an aspect of protection why not one for failure

I could be wrong but didn't someone somewhere say his aspect could be 'blind ambition'?

This all also recasts the 'You never learn.' comment in a whole other light.


But at root, ascension means moving beyond what you are, and Kallor appears to have been stuck as he is for a long, long time, possibly going back to before FoD.

Which might mean that aside from a curse, Draconus was being ironic.

[Gothos]

Well, could be that the first curse actually made him a mortal man, now that I look at that quote from MoI and with FoD in mind...

[Tattersail_]

Memories of Ice

Rake to Korlat

Quote

'Unseen watchers on Kallor as well. Should he err, call upon me instantly, but do not hesitate in commanding the full force of the Tiste Andii down upon him. At the very least, I can be witness to the gathering of his pieces.'

'The full force, Lord? We have not done so in a very long time. Do you believe it will be necessary in destroying Kallor?'

'I cannot be sure, Korlat. Why risk otherwise?'

'Very well. I shall being the preparation for our warrens' joining.'

'I see that it troubles you none the less.'

'There are eleven hundred Tiste Andii, Lord.'

....

[Silk]

one other thing could be that he is the aspect of all thats bad with humanity ... forever destined to rise and fall and be ones own worst enemy.... always getting in your own way while trying to get to the top of the ladder so to speak.

Perhaps then (and this is where it gets strange)as a compatison, Burn could the aspect of all the hopes, dreams and aspirations in Humanity (she is a dog runner after all), i.e the dreams and aspirations of a better place.... and somehow Burn is not OE (as she would have us believe) but T'riss and Kallor is somehow related in aspect with Ardata.... after all they apparently ruled together and both are stuck in the past holding onto things they don't seem to want to let go..... even though they must know deep down its the reason for their failure ... .change is inevitable and the old must adapt or forever be replaced by the new........

The above did make sense when I was typing it but am not sure its coming out properly in the way its being written.....grrrrrr

[Midnight]

Spoilers for the Bonehunters (sorry don't know how to do the tags)

Just a thought on the implication in Blood and Bone that Kallor can't die - this seems to contradict previous information in Erikson's series. We know that Whiskeyjack almost killed Kallor in Memories of Ice and on page 684 of the mass market version of the Bonehunters we have the following quote from the Queen of Dreams while she is discussing Hood's revenge against Whiskeyjack:

Quote

Hood...took in the end a most satisfying vengeance, ever turning away a healer's touch when nothing else was needed, when that touch could have changed the world, could have shattered an age-old curse.

It seems very likely here that she's talking about the curse on Kallor so it seems to imply that he can be killed. I suppose T'riss could have her facts wrong but it seems like this goes against the not-dying idea in Blood and Bone.

[Aptorian]

The fact that a jadestatue striking with the force of a small nuclear bomb could not kill Kallor should probably tell you that Whiskeyjacks sword would not have killed him. Dassem putting a sword through his chest did not kill him. Maybe, if the sword had pierced Kallors heart he would had been rendered "incapacitated" allowing the Andii to cut him into pieces and bury him in an Azath or something but Kallor does certainly not appear to be bothered by mortal wounds the same way a true mortal is.

[Midnight]

I like the incapacitation theory...seems like the most plausible way to make it all work. Though it still sounds like a continuity error to me.

[Salt-Man Z]

I would go with "T'riss could have her facts wrong" over "continuity error".

[tiam]

Regarding the 'When the Imass were children' and given that the High King in FOD is likely going to be Kallor given the newer info we get on him about his Issgin line connection and his trip to Saranas is it possible that he meant it figuratively? Like when the Imass were children still under the matriarchy of Olar Ethil? Im unsure what this would effect just another way of thinking about it maybe.

[worry]

It's very possible. I mean, at its heart it's just a bit of grandiloquence right? He's not actually teaching Brood anything with that statement, he's just outright bragging. In the scene it conveys to the reader a bit of mystery about this mortal but long-lived human...he's a singular special case in all the world, it seems. But there's no telling if he even has the knowledge to make that claim, even if it's correct to the best of his knowledge. And there's always room for poetic license that nevertheless conveys a certain amount of truth, which is how I personally read it. I don't believe he's an Azathanai though. I think he's something closer to the flipside of the Eres'al.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

I put a bunch of stuff in the FoD forum about my Kallor opinions. I don't think he's Az'i either. The constant references are to him being a mortal human. And there are places where there are multiple references to that. My feelings are that he is the following:

1. The High King of an isolated first civilization of Humans (perhapscreated by a Jhagut) that ocurrs concurrently with the Imass.
2. Worshiped by those humans with blood sacrifice.
3. Eventually becomes the first human Tyrant.
4. Dessimbelickis is a distant product of Kallor's lineage.

I have no real proof of any of this. However we have seen him take advantage of the Agon shaduwam magics that involve sacrifice and ritual. I wish we had more info on Agon.

[Kanese S's]

Cause, on 15 March 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

The problem is he is a hundred thousand year old and counting immortal (in practice) bad ass who kills dragons with his sword and on the continent on Jackaruku he is worshiped as the evil god king by ignorant peasants and worshiped by the shadawum. According to everything we know about ascendancy he qualifies. He was once King and then Reaver of High House Chains for Kallor's sake.

The curse makes very little sense at this point. His curses failed so why don't the elder gods curses fail especially given that as he points out Nightchill and Dragnipur are destroyed. And as I point out he is in fact an ascendant.

I also dont understand why as he says he cant commit suicide.

He's not an ascendant. Ascendants don't really age. Kallor does. The curse was eternal life without eternal youth. He keeps himself from becoming decrepit through alchemical means.

He can't commit suicide because of the curse. Apparently the curse the three elder gods put on him was a bit more durable than the ones he fired back with.