[Kanese S's]

Midnight, on 28 July 2013 - 02:41 PM, said:

Spoilers for the Bonehunters (sorry don't know how to do the tags)

Just a thought on the implication in Blood and Bone that Kallor can't die - this seems to contradict previous information in Erikson's series. We know that Whiskeyjack almost killed Kallor in Memories of Ice and on page 684 of the mass market version of the Bonehunters we have the following quote from the Queen of Dreams while she is discussing Hood's revenge against Whiskeyjack:

Quote

Hood...took in the end a most satisfying vengeance, ever turning away a healer's touch when nothing else was needed, when that touch could have changed the world, could have shattered an age-old curse.

It seems very likely here that she's talking about the curse on Kallor so it seems to imply that he can be killed. I suppose T'riss could have her facts wrong but it seems like this goes against the not-dying idea in Blood and Bone.

Maybe he can be killed, but now by his own hand.

[D'rek]

Like Worry says, I think the whole "when the Imass were but children" line is just a bit of bragging thrown in there. I'd compare it to Han Solo's "made the kessel run in 12 parsecs" quote. In both cases they're saying it just to brag, and the claim itself is outrageous but *could* be true if you really twist the explanation.

[limping dog]

Kanese S, on 05 August 2013 - 07:16 AM, said:

Maybe he can be killed, but now by his own hand.

He met up with Dassem to discredit this.

no one makes Kallor bleed his own blood.

[Abyss]

Kanese S, on 05 August 2013 - 07:07 AM, said:

...
He's not an ascendant. Ascendants don't really age. Kallor does. The curse was eternal life without eternal youth. He keeps himself from becoming decrepit through alchemical means.

He can't commit suicide because of the curse. Apparently the curse the three elder gods put on him was a bit more durable than the ones he fired back with.

Disagree. He is an ascendent, just not the eternally young type of ascendent. The guy stabs dragons in the throat ... he survived having a chunk of jad dropped on him that left a crater where he stood... he is NOT a mere mortal.

As for suicide, Kallor's too egoistic to ever try to take his own life. His own reflexes practically prevent it - see TtH where he tells Spin once he draws his sword he cannot be responsible for what happens.

limping dog, on 07 August 2013 - 03:15 PM, said:

...no one makes Kallor bleed his own blood.

Dassem did. Kallor retreated before Das could finish the job. If Kallor had nothing to fear, why retreat?
And iirc, Nomad Princess girl put an arrow in him before he killed her.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Indeed she did and he had to drink a sacrificial drink to be able to leave quickly enough to arrive at a place in time to have a statue dropped on him. Which only makes things even more confusing.

[Dughan]

Kanese S, on 05 August 2013 - 07:07 AM, said:

Cause, on 15 March 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

The problem is he is a hundred thousand year old and counting immortal (in practice) bad ass who kills dragons with his sword and on the continent on Jackaruku he is worshiped as the evil god king by ignorant peasants and worshiped by the shadawum. According to everything we know about ascendancy he qualifies. He was once King and then Reaver of High House Chains for Kallor's sake.

The curse makes very little sense at this point. His curses failed so why don't the elder gods curses fail especially given that as he points out Nightchill and Dragnipur are destroyed. And as I point out he is in fact an ascendant.

I also dont understand why as he says he cant commit suicide.

He's not an ascendant. Ascendants don't really age. Kallor does. The curse was eternal life without eternal youth. He keeps himself from becoming decrepit through alchemical means.

He can't commit suicide because of the curse. Apparently the curse the three elder gods put on him was a bit more durable than the ones he fired back with.

For Kallor not being able to commit suicide I don't think it has anything to do with the curse, I believe it is all about his pride and his will to strike back. At the end of blood and bone Jatal asks Kallor to kill him. Kallor immediately does so. However the conversation beforehand and afterword are interesting. It appears that it can be interpreted either way.

Spoiler

Quote

From pages 574-575.

Kallor- "You cannot kill me"

Jatal- "I see that now, I see that all the ancient curses heaped upon you still hold."

Kallor- "I will break them yet."

and later

Jatal-" What you lack the courage to grant yourself.. release."

Kallor- " You think I have not tried? You think I meekly... " "They will not be the end of me. I will break them or go of my own choosing."

Jatal- " I agree High King. That is why I am here. I ask that you release me. My love awaits."

Kallor- " Well done Prine Jatal of the Hafinaj. You win your way and in so doing you succeed where I am cursed to fail. Well done"


Also after this Scarza thinks. 'What could one say? Even after all this - in the sight of such devestation- the man had still not learned a thing. Perhaps that was his true curse. His overriding inner curse. He could never learn.

The meekly part is the only part that could give two meanings to this quote. Everything else characterizes Kallor as a cold hearted bastard who wants to get his revenge.

[Kanese S's]

King Lear (the forum poster, not the Shakespeare character) and I were talking about Kallor and the nature of the curses laid on him by the Elder Gods, and his retaliatory curses.

She posited that though Draconus, Nightchill, and K'rul would seem to have broken Kallor's curses, that in fact they haven't, it's just that the nature of his curses on them is different than the nature of their curses on him.

The difference being that their curses were more continuous states of not ascending (or at least not ascending fully*), eternal life without eternal youth, and failure, not cursing him to any specific horrible catastrophe, but rather cursing the rest of his existence in perpetuity. Essentially their curses have no expiration date, as they aren't curses that happen and then are over, but curses that are continuing to happen.

In contrast, the curses Kallor retaliated with all came to pass, but they were all basically singular events that can be said to have "happened," past tense.

His curse against K'rul? Came true. K'rul was forgotten. However, the curse said nothing of what would happen after said forgetting occurred, and so it happened that eventually K'rul was rediscovered and so once again has a presence in Wu, albeit a smaller one than in ancient times.

The curse against Draconus? Obviously came true. But again, Kallor made no mention of what would happen after Draconus was cut down and imprisoned in Dragnipur. As it happened, the sword did not last forever. And so Draconus is back in action, being a BAMF, though occasionally being all sad about missing Mama D, and mildly scolding his evil daughter.

Perhaps the least 'temporary setback' of Kallor's curses was the one against the Sister of Cold Nights. Basically, he said that even after getting ripped apart, her torment wouldn't end, and it didn't. While it would seem that since she's been reborn in Silverfox, that she's gotten over that, how do we know that Silverfox isn't internally tormented? There are many kinds of torment, after all, and her torment could now be emotional/philosophical. Missing Bellurdan could be a torment, even. Being in charge of the T'lan Imass certainly would weigh heavily on her, especially given that she knows that really she should probably release them, and also the pressure of having this burden that she didn't really ask for, but kinda fell into as the first mortal bonecaster in millennia. Plus there's the whole having to share a body with some human mage who she got along with in their past life, but wasn't besties with or anything like that, is probably a bit complicated, and again, not something she exactly asked for.

Basically, Kallor cursed the Elder Gods with terrible events, though ones that, given that death is cheap and their souls don't go away, they could recover from, given enough time. The Elder Gods, on the other hand, cursed Kallor with a shitty life.






*I would maintain that due to the fact that Kallor would be a shriveled, motionless blob/husk without his century candles, he's not an ascendant, as he would be doomed if the knowledge to make such were ever lost and never rediscovered, unless of course he makes them himself, but this isn't all that related to the point KL was making, as even if he is an ascendant, he is not as ascended as the kind that stays young forever

[Illuyankas]

I suppose 'Kallor's curses were pretty rubbish and poorly worded as curses go' makes more sense than my original 'his curses have worn off over time, much like the Elder God's curses on him' or my just-thought 'the curse about all of his achievements failing miserably affected his curses, he was doomed to fail forever' ideas.

[Kanese S's]

Hmmm, I think it could definitely go with the last one. He was cursed to fail forever, before he cursed the Elder Gods, and so while his curses did work, they all came to pass and such, they perhaps didn't do what he intended them to, partly because of his arrogance in assuming that they would be final. So even though he succeeded in cursing them to have terrible catastrophes befall them (well, K'rul's was more of a "terribly depressing insignificance" than a terrible catastrophe), ultimately he failed because was arrogant in assuming that they wouldn't come back from those curses, and they all did.

[worry]

That'll be a lesson to everybody as you construct your curses. Word them wisely or you end up with the monkey's paw effect.

[Kanese S's]

Yeah, make sure your curse is a gift that keeps on giving.

[Illuyankas]

Consult your solicitor before all curses.

[Abyss]

Kallor himself says in.... i think TtH... that his aspect seems to be blind ambition. If so, the EGs curse was perhaps just another in an endless series of obstacles he brought on himself, especially if he's an Az'i going all the way back to the FoD era and has been repeating the same cycle of conquest and failure ever since.

Considering that if in fact he was in position to draw on the force of his sacrifice - the destruction of an entire empire - just once, he could have killed himself, he could have ascended to godhood, perhaps he could have changed his aspect, FFS he could have just powered up, pulled out his sword and charged the EGs... and instead he wasted that power on a curse.

The revelation in FoD that Kallor may be Az'i also changes the context of the 3 EGs visit... they were on their way to rein in a tyrant kinsman, not to take down a particularly nasty human ruler. ... actually if there is a relationship there that would also explain why it came down to curses instead of stabbyfeste.

[limping dog]

Abyss, on 07 August 2013 - 03:29 PM, said:

Dassem did. Kallor retreated before Das could finish the job. If Kallor had nothing to fear, why retreat?
And iirc, Nomad Princess girl put an arrow in him before he killed her.

I don't recall blood coming out. I always found Kallor avoiding fights with people he knew were better than him.

[Abyss]

limping dog, on 09 August 2013 - 07:49 PM, said:

Abyss, on 07 August 2013 - 03:29 PM, said:

Dassem did. Kallor retreated before Das could finish the job. If Kallor had nothing to fear, why retreat?
And iirc, Nomad Princess girl put an arrow in him before he killed her.

I don't recall blood coming out. I always found Kallor avoiding fights with people he knew were better than him.

That's a ref to the conversation with Brood in MoI, but when faced with Dassem in RCG he hung around long enough to know he was going to lose then ran for it.

I don't have BaB with me so i can't remember if there was a ref to an arrow wound, but i vaguely think there was.

[Dughan]

Abyss, on 09 August 2013 - 08:27 PM, said:

limping dog, on 09 August 2013 - 07:49 PM, said:

Abyss, on 07 August 2013 - 03:29 PM, said:

Dassem did. Kallor retreated before Das could finish the job. If Kallor had nothing to fear, why retreat?
And iirc, Nomad Princess girl put an arrow in him before he killed her.

I don't recall blood coming out. I always found Kallor avoiding fights with people he knew were better than him.

That's a ref to the conversation with Brood in MoI, but when faced with Dassem in RCG he hung around long enough to know he was going to lose then ran for it.

I don't have BaB with me so i can't remember if there was a ref to an arrow wound, but i vaguely think there was.

Yes there was. The Princess Andanii was somehow attacked by Kallor but not before she was able to fire off an arrow into his side. It's not referenced when she is dying but later when Jatal meets with Kallor inside of the city, He takes the arrow out of his side and gives it to Jatal.

[Kanese S's]

Abyss, on 09 August 2013 - 07:01 PM, said:

Kallor himself says in.... i think TtH... that his aspect seems to be blind ambition. If so, the EGs curse was perhaps just another in an endless series of obstacles he brought on himself, especially if he's an Az'i going all the way back to the FoD era and has been repeating the same cycle of conquest and failure ever since.

Considering that if in fact he was in position to draw on the force of his sacrifice - the destruction of an entire empire - just once, he could have killed himself, he could have ascended to godhood, perhaps he could have changed his aspect, FFS he could have just powered up, pulled out his sword and charged the EGs... and instead he wasted that power on a curse.

The revelation in FoD that Kallor may be Az'i also changes the context of the 3 EGs visit... they were on their way to rein in a tyrant kinsman, not to take down a particularly nasty human ruler. ... actually if there is a relationship there that would also explain why it came down to curses instead of stabbyfeste.

Indeed, him being an out of control peer rather than just a human would explain why the didn't just go "Lol, what a douche," and then squish him.

[NefaraisBredd]

Ok, so Kallor is human-that is clear in the books. He pissed off elder gods(azathanai) and they cursed him. He cannot escape the.curses as he continues.to.age Nd he is turned upon by his fellows at the.end.of.the.book. Convergence-Kallor is drawn to Ascendants but he will never become one.

[Azathanai]

I like the idea of Kallor as Azathanai. His name is long enough for one.

Why would three A's curse a mortal to be mortal? Why would a mortal's curse hold such power over three A's?

The wording of the curse is specific - mortality, with life unending. Never to ascend. The Azathanai raw power seems fairly unlimited to begin with, but the nature of Ascendancy isn't entirely clear. We've seen Azathanai explore their powers by aligning themselves with various subtle elements in the world. Perhaps the root of Ascendancy is a binding between a being and a subtle force of the world so that an exchange of energy may occur. A's have it easy - with such power inherent they can explore to their hearts content, but a binding is still required. Humans must precisely align themselves for a binding to occur, and then may inherit greater power, Many possibilities.

IF I'm on to something these curses take away everything possible. A's cannot die, but they can feel. The feel of Mortality has made Kallor wish he could die. Their power cannot be taken, but if my theory on Ascendancy holds, then Kallor may never bind his power to external forces. Kallor clearly has power, raw and poignant, but appears unable to channel it.

If I'm wrong, it will be interesting to discover where Kallor's power comes from. The curse itself could be the source. But why ever would three A's, devastated and enraged by Kallor's actions, curse him to live forever clearly knowing he would continue his destructive patterns? Unless those facets were beyond their control.

Whatever the case it seems answers are coming soon.

[Khazduk]

Kallor is the author, trapped in his own story.