[Zerv]

"Mortal, [...]In the shadow of Death's spectre, ever a threat to end what you will not relinquish."

This part of the curse does seem to imply that Kallor can die (or, if not, his inability to die is unrelated to the curse), but perhaps not at a time of his own choosing, which might explain the events at the end of B&B. Either way, I think we can say with certainty that, at the very least, Kallor himself believed that he could die in MoI; there is simply no way he would have fled without killing Silverfox if he didn't fear for his life.

As for whether or not Kallor is human, the MoI prologue seems to explicitly tell us that he is:

"Brutal, a devourer of souls, its ruler was a warrior without equal. K'rul had come to destroy him, had come to snap the chains of twelve million slaves - even the Jaghut Tyrants had not commanded such heartless mastery over their subjects. No, it took a mortal human to achieve this level of tyranny over his kin." (Memories of Ice, Bantam MMPB, p.36)

Then again, similar passages have turned out to be inaccurate before, I suppose.

This post has been edited by Zerv: 27 December 2013 - 09:39 PM

[HoosierDaddy]

As for fearing death: I rather believe Kallor fled Rake's wrath at the end of MoI. Dragnipur has no problems with elder gods or Azathanai.

As for Erikson's first books: Kallor is listed as an ascendant, but also cursed to never ascend: inconsistent. It's possible Kallor was taking on the guise of a human.

[Zerv]

Good point. While Rake wasn't present at the time, Kallor could fear being captured and given the Dragnipur treatment upon Anomander's return. Alternatively, it might have been reasonable to believe that Tayschrenn's unleashing High Telas might lead Rake to suspect that something had gone awry and act accordingly.

Yes, it's possible that Kallor was merely taking on the guise of a mortal human, but since the quote from my previous post was from K'rul's point-of-view, this implies that K'rul (and presumably also Draconus and Nightchill) was unable to see through Kallor's deception, and I find that hard to believe.
On the other hand, as has been previously mentioned in this thread, it is odd that three Elder Gods would band together to personally confront a mere mortal. Seems like one hell of an overkill, and potentially messy besides (power draws power and all that). From that viewpoint it would make sense for Kallor to be an Ascendant/God/Azathanai in disguise. There seems to be things that don't quite add up either way.
Of course, as far as I know the aforementioned quote is the only direct reference to Kallor being a mortal human before the curse, and it's possible that it has since been retconned (if the High King referenced in FoD is indeed Kallor, there is no way the quote can be accurate). And it is indeed curious that Kallor is listed as an ascendant in GotM, DG and MoI. But since he is not present in the ascendant listing from HoC onwards, this might just have been a mistake.

[worry]

It seems Kallor's purpose in even amassing this empire was to use those humans (described as "12 million slaves") to manufacture his own godhood. I think what the EG's did -- and K'rul's presence is most pertinent perhaps -- is ban Kallor from becoming an Elder God (via the sacrifice of so many people). So if ascendance is a spectrum, Kallor started a mortal human but was further along the way by the calling of Kaminsod, and the EGs cursed him with a glass ceiling so to speak, and even knocked him down (like a Go Back to Start card in a board game). He seemingly can't use warrens of his own (pre-curse or post-curse), so it's like a permanent barrier to that (on top of the extended life). He couldn't use the 12 million to ascend to godhood, so he used 7 million to curse the EGs and 5 million to make more Century Candles.

At least that's the notion I'm working with until I get proved wrong.

[Aptorian]

I thought the candles were made out of seaslugs or something like that? ... Or am I thinking about something else?

Also I don't think Kallor intended to sacrifice those people in the name of godhood. I reckon he had his eyes on Korelri and then afterwards the First Empire. Kallor seems like the kind of guy who likes to build empires so that he has something to feel proud of and people to worship him. Destroying it was an action of defiance. If the continent couldn't be his then no-one was going to have it.

[worry]

Yah that's been said. But I mean how are seaslugs gonna keep a dude young forever? They probably just make the right kind of wax to hold souls or something.

[worry]

And I think there's a direct line between Kallor's goals and the obsessions of the Thaumaturgs. I don't mean to suggest he was already planning on destroying them all at once...that was clearly a response to the EG's interference. But an empire of slaves makes a great pool of livestock to experiment on.

This post has been edited by worry: 29 December 2013 - 08:21 PM

[Aptorian]

worry, on 29 December 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

Yah that's been said. But I mean how are seaslugs gonna keep a dude young forever? They probably just make the right kind of wax to hold souls or something.

That is actually an interesting perspective. I hadn't thought about the candles just being the receptacle.

On the other hand, I've always thought of Kallors longevity as means of arcane arts and secret alchemies. It's why he wouldn't mind magic dying out, he believes in science and knowledge.

It explains why when he gets shot or run through with a sword, instead of bleeding out, weird goo comes out. His innards are completely mutated by all the stuff he's been ingesting over the millenia.

[worry]

Yah true. Mostly I came up with that theory because what else did he do with the extra 5 million deaths? Why did he only spend 7 mil on the curses? It nags at me.

Plus I think he's torn between hating the EGs and wanting to be one. I don't think he's of one mind on magic, even if he feels that way sometimes.

This post has been edited by worry: 29 December 2013 - 08:37 PM

[Kanese S's]

worry, on 29 December 2013 - 08:36 PM, said:

Yah true. Mostly I came up with that theory because what else did he do with the extra 5 million deaths? Why did he only spend 7 mil on the curses? It nags at me.

Plus I think he's torn between hating the EGs and wanting to be one. I don't think he's of one mind on magic, even if he feels that way sometimes.

He hates them because they put up a sign on their treehouse that says "No dudes named Kallor allowed."

[NefaraisBredd]

limping dog, on 07 August 2013 - 03:15 PM, said:

Kanese S, on 05 August 2013 - 07:16 AM, said:

Maybe he can be killed, but now by his own hand.

He met up with Dassem to discredit this.

no one makes Kallor bleed his own blood.

Hahahahahahahahahaha! Nice Dodgeball reference. I am in stitches!

I agree with the sentiment expressed here and earlier, when someone mentioned the whole thing about a jade giant obliterating a continent yet, miraculously, Kallor lives to tell of it. Think about it, Spinnock Durav is what, 300,000 yrs old? He couldn't beat Kallor and Durav was the 2nd best swordsman of the Tiste Andii. I know, he lasted half a day or so but that can be mitigated by two things:

1. He's really, really, really, really, really old! Immortal. He's had a gazillion hours of practice.
2. Kallor was emotionally conflicted for the first time in a gazillion years.
.

This post has been edited by NefaraisBredd: 13 February 2014 - 01:53 AM

[Bloody9]

HoosierDaddy, on 28 December 2013 - 12:50 AM, said:

As for fearing death: I rather believe Kallor fled Rake's wrath at the end of MoI. Dragnipur has no problems with elder gods or Azathanai.

As for Erikson's first books: Kallor is listed as an ascendant, but also cursed to never ascend: inconsistent. It's possible Kallor was taking on the guise of a human.

I don't see how Kallor isn't already an ascendant/God by the time he is cursed? He was already causing ruckus at the time of FoD, but then wasn't cursed until thousands of years after that (or you would assume).

Kallor is one of my favorite characters in the series. There could have been an entire book just on him, but I just get the feel that we were short changed in regards to his character, as well as some inconsistencies.

This post has been edited by Bloody9: 24 July 2014 - 01:44 AM

[Andorion]

Note: Major MoI Spoilers and tiny TtH and MT event Spoilers below

Quote

What of Kallor? Draconus enquired. What of this ... this creature?
We mark him, K'rul replied. We know his deepest desire, do we not?
And the span of his life?
Long, my friends.
Agreed.
K'rul blinked, fixed his dark, heavy eyes on the High King. 'For this crime, Kallor, we deliver appropriate punishment. Know this: you, Kallor Eiderann Tes'thesula, shall know mortal life unending. Mortal, in the ravages of age, in the pain of wounds and the anguish of despair. In dreams brought to ruin. In love withered. In the shadow of Death's spectre, ever a threat to end what you will not relinquish.' Draconus spoke, 'Kallor Eiderann Tes'thesula, you shall never ascend.'
Their sister said, 'Kallor Eiderann Tes'thesula, each time you rise, you shall then fall. All that you achieve shall turn to dust in your hands. As you have wilfully done here, so it shall be in turn visited upon all that you do.'
'Three voices curse you,' K'rul intoned. 'It is done.'

I think the curse of the Elder Gods both prevented him from Ascending and ensured his long life. "Mortal Life unending' not immortality, thus vulnerable to wounds, and pain, yet incapable of dying. I think this is why Kallor feared Dragnipur so badly. The craft of the sword would not kill him, but take him inside, in the sword's own warren and sentence him to an eternity of labour.

As for the sea-slugs or candles or whatever, note the second sentence: "In the ravages of age, in the pain of wounds, and the anguish of despair" If Kallor had not taken certain steps he would have become a withered, paralysed geriatric, incapable of motion or action. The Elder Gods curse never said anything about mortal decay, but death only. Basically he would have become a living mummy.

This is also why his battle with Whiskeyjack was decided from the beginning in a way. Even if Whiskeyjack's knee had not given way, and he had used his sword skills to disarm Kallor, he could not have killed Kallor. I think the most anybody - Whiskeyjack, Dassem, Orfantal in Eleint form could have done was damage him seriously. If he used his healing source, he could then repair the damage.

Come to think of it, his best opponent would be Brys Beddict. Snip, snip, snip away at the tendons, and leave him paralysed. Without healing he would be incapable of action.

This post has been edited by Andorion: 24 July 2014 - 02:29 AM

[Aertheron]

Cause, on 15 March 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

The problem is he is a hundred thousand year old and counting immortal (in practice) bad ass who kills dragons with his sword and on the continent on Jackaruku he is worshiped as the evil god king by ignorant peasants and worshiped by the shadawum. According to everything we know about ascendancy he qualifies. He was once King and then Reaver of High House Chains for Kallor's sake.

The curse makes very little sense at this point. His curses failed so why don't the elder gods curses fail especially given that as he points out Nightchill and Dragnipur are destroyed. And as I point out he is in fact an ascendant.

I also dont understand why as he says he cant commit suicide.

Honestly, his curse was fueled by 100.000.000 people's deaths, and was split among 3 Elder Gods.
The power of those deaths must wear off sometime, and this happend a LONG time ago.
Also his curses where basically event based, you will be killed by a weapon of your own making, you will be ripped to shreds by unhuman hands, you will be forgotten etc.
once the curse happened, the power of it would start to wane, also K'Rull got himself some blood spilled on his holy place, basically fuelling his power again.
Draconus was actually trapped in Dragnipur, Kallor didn't state that Dragnipur would exist forever


3 Elder Gods cursed him, and 2 of the 3 are still alive and extremely powerful, it stands to reason that their curses still endure.
Their curse was 3 fold, and was a status instead of an event, you will not ascend, you will live forever, you will age. it's word differently from the curses Kallor used.

[ultor]

all 3 elder gods are around krull after the spilled blood in krull's bar,draconus after dragnipur got destroyed and nightchill remember the creation of silverfox took place by merging the best parts of both tattersail and nightchill,that's why kallor hates her so much he recognised her essence in silverfox

[Kallor's Hubris]

I take the curse against Draconus to be his children turning against him; those which he create. Envy and Spite seem to be turned against him.

K'rul being replaced also means that he will, eventually, be forgotten forever.

Silverfox has part of Nightchill, but Nightchill is not in control; she has untold torment forever, or at least as long as Silverfox lives; hence Kallor's curse.




I believe that Kallor was attempting to become a God; hence why all the blood sacrifices were happening in his name. Perhaps him killing all his people was a last effort to ascend? It didn't work and he was cursed to forever be mortal, the one thing he was trying to overcome. The curse of him never being able to ascend is, never becoming a God. Able to rise but always falling, meaning him having -no- way to ever again try to become a God. I don't know, just my little theory :3

[Andorion]

StealthyLunatik, on 27 September 2015 - 03:38 AM, said:

In Memories of Ice, in the prologue, it is mentioned that he is human.

Quote

K'rul had come to destroy him, had come to snap the chains of twelve million slaves – even the Jaghut Tyrants had not commanded such heartless mastery over their subjects. No, it took a mortal human to achieve this level of tyranny over his kin.

His curse, made by three elder gods, became a thing of power. You can add the powers I suspect he may have recieved in FoD.
Kallor was well liked at the time of FoD, as mentioned by Errastas to Sechul Lath.

Quote

Then we must bargain our way into the demesne, friend. There must be good reason why the King is so beloved among his people. Let us make this our next adventure, and discover all the hidden truths of the High Kingdom and its perfect liege.

Saying this right after killing Hood's wife, thus, while fashioning the Terondai for Draconus, means that he had his sight on the vast continent. He also thanked Draconus when he gave him the gift, saying he "learned a lot". I suspect he fashioned a gift of power from the blood on his hand, to bargainhis way in The Kallorian Empire, gifting Kallor power, and that could be his source of power, growing even bigger, enough to spite the gods years later, while attempting to use that power for ascendency. Maybe vying to become some aspect of death. Delicious irony it would be, using the gift of the blood of Karish, the wife of the soon-to-be God of death to become the lord of death himself. Trying maybe to fashion his way into Ascendency with the power of sacrifices, causing the wrath of three Gods, thus leading to the Chaining.

"Life unending" made him invincible, in the way that he is refused death, by any means. I suspect it even pulled chance in the lot, causing mortal blows to fail. The very power warping events around him to prevent him from dying. Whiskeyjack's failed lunge at Kallor, which would surely have been a mortal blow, seems a lot like the "Lad's push" to me. He even prolongs his health with Century candles, as mentioned later in MoI. Those candles rejuvenate him and add a hundred years of his life, countering the "ravages of age".

You theory is interesting, but since you are discussing multiple books, including FOrge of Darkness which takes place in a different timeline this theory should be outlined in the General Book Topics subforum.

An Admin should move it.

[StealthyLunatik]

Andorion said:

1443325559[/url]' post='1201252']

StealthyLunatik said:

1443325096[/url]' post='1201251']
You theory is interesting, but since you are discussing multiple books, including FOrge of Darkness which takes place in a different timeline this theory should be outlined in the General Book Topics subforum.

An Admin should move it.

removed. Will repost in mentioned subforums Thank you, sorry.

[Kanese S's]

Aertheron, on 24 July 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

Cause, on 15 March 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

The problem is he is a hundred thousand year old and counting immortal (in practice) bad ass who kills dragons with his sword and on the continent on Jackaruku he is worshiped as the evil god king by ignorant peasants and worshiped by the shadawum. According to everything we know about ascendancy he qualifies. He was once King and then Reaver of High House Chains for Kallor's sake.

The curse makes very little sense at this point. His curses failed so why don't the elder gods curses fail especially given that as he points out Nightchill and Dragnipur are destroyed. And as I point out he is in fact an ascendant.

I also dont understand why as he says he cant commit suicide.

Honestly, his curse was fueled by 100.000.000 people's deaths, and was split among 3 Elder Gods.
The power of those deaths must wear off sometime, and this happend a LONG time ago.
Also his curses where basically event based, you will be killed by a weapon of your own making, you will be ripped to shreds by unhuman hands, you will be forgotten etc.
once the curse happened, the power of it would start to wane, also K'Rull got himself some blood spilled on his holy place, basically fuelling his power again.
Draconus was actually trapped in Dragnipur, Kallor didn't state that Dragnipur would exist forever


3 Elder Gods cursed him, and 2 of the 3 are still alive and extremely powerful, it stands to reason that their curses still endure.
Their curse was 3 fold, and was a status instead of an event, you will not ascend, you will live forever, you will age. it's word differently from the curses Kallor used.

Precisely. Kallor's curses were all singular events, which, while serious setbacks to their victims, could be overcome. The Elder Gods' curse was not an event but a continuous status.

Kallor is *not* an ascendant. If he doesn't continually reinvigorate himself through alchemical means, he will shrivel up and age too drastically to be a threat to anyone.

Honestly I'd like to see K'rul/T'renn, Draconus, and Silverfox reunite to rase the stain of Kallor from existence.

[NefaraisBredd]

As much as we like to hate Kallor, he is a necessary evil. He is the epitome of avarice and ambition, ego, and narcissism. He is the very worst part of all of us-the level that we can all sink to or rise to (depending on your perception). We saw humanity in Kallor when he almost killed Spinnok Durav. There other instances where Kallor has shown humanity/vulnerability. He also represents our insane amd persistent need to persist. I admire certain aspects of Kallors character, his perpetual 'middle finger' in the face of existence, his mind-blowing determination, his unflagging optimism in spite of a nasty curse that lasts for eternity. Oir society rewards anti social bastards like Kallor! Again, i dont admire his lack of respect for life or autonomy in general. However, typical human gesture to erase an empire to spite the effing gods.