[Primateus]

Tsundoku, on 11 November 2017 - 11:46 AM, said:

polishgenius, on 11 November 2017 - 09:00 AM, said:

George Takei is next up, accused of molesting and perhaps of Bill Cosbying a guy in the 80s.

http://www.news.com....e20b15cc95b22c1

George Takei? Man - when will it end? WILL it end? Who defines and decides the end? Urgh my head hurts.

NO HEROES! Seriously. I'm just dreading the day that, despite him being dead, someone starts accusing Carl Sagan of having assaulted them.

[QuickTidal]

FLASH, SUPERGIRL, ARROW showrunner Andrew Kriesberg is next. He denies any wrongdoing.

[Macros]

creator of Mad Men I think was mentioned too

[Mezla PigDog]

Tsundoku, on 11 November 2017 - 11:46 AM, said:

If we thought the politics of sex in the western world were getting dicey enough already, where is all this stuff at the moment going to take us? Is there gong to be an anti-Sexual revolution? "No Ma'am" becomes a genuine organisation? A new Puritanism as a reaction? McCarthyism for the 21st century? Can anyone see a new sort of courtship dynamic coming into play here? Genuine questions, not shit-stirring btw.

It's really not that difficult. If you're with a person of your preferred gender in a professional context then keep your hands to yourself and your dick in your pants. This includes when you are socialising with people you know professionally.

If you're with a person of your preferred gender and you only know them socially then normal courtship rules apply. No, or a lack of an obvious yes, means no.

The #MeToo thing has been strange because I was thinking I'm quite lucky because NotMeToo but then I thought, oh well there was that time a guy masturbated at me on the NYC subway. And then that time I was staying at my friends when I was about 16 and her parents were out. They had a guy in his 40s staying and he got down to his pants and tried to get me to give him a massage....fortunately I just left the room thinking what a dirty old bloke. There are more minor inappropriate things from the workplace that aren't even worth dwelling on. Where there are people there are awkward situations and so long as I'm not having to look at a cock and nobody is touching me I can live with it!

[Mezla PigDog]

Oh! And speaking of dicks, I forgot to add: Fuck off Battalion.

[Macros]

My link

As a corollary to this (correct word?) I wonder if it will shine a new light on cases that were dismissed (example the singer and Goddard cases) if more people come out about abuse from them?

[Abyss]

Primateus, on 11 November 2017 - 12:05 PM, said:

Tsundoku, on 11 November 2017 - 11:46 AM, said:

polishgenius, on 11 November 2017 - 09:00 AM, said:

George Takei is next up, accused of molesting and perhaps of Bill Cosbying a guy in the 80s.

http://www.news.com....e20b15cc95b22c1

George Takei? Man - when will it end? WILL it end? Who defines and decides the end? Urgh my head hurts.

NO HEROES! Seriously. I'm just dreading the day that, despite him being dead, someone starts accusing Carl Sagan of having assaulted them.

At this rate, Stephen Hawking... nah.
Takei has the right idea for a response... ' never happened, don't even remember meeting the guy, my husband believes and supports me.'. Now the clincher is whether this stays an outlier or six more people call him out.


Meanwhile, Richard Dreyfus... fuck.

[Battalion]

polishgenius, on 11 November 2017 - 09:00 AM, said:

Battalion, on 10 November 2017 - 12:19 PM, said:

I'm not blaming any victims.
But how does a millionaire find his very own gold-digger without first making some advances or asking the odd woman out on a date?

Like Gust Hubb said, we're not talking about asking women out on dates or 'making advances'. We're talking about predatory behaviour, unwanted touching and grabbing, and sexual harrassment. If you can't do the first bit without doing the second you have a problem.

I CAN do the first without doing the second. But I've been with the same woman for 20 years, so I guess I'm out of practice. But I'm not talking about me, or normal people, I'm talking about uber rich powerful men - let me put it this way: would Donald Trump be married to Ivana if he didn't "grab (her) by the pussy"? Did he alter his method on "getting women" for her, or was her receptiveness to his advances different?

[Tsundoku]

He's married to Melania. Ivana was a few trophy trade-ups ago.

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 13 November 2017 - 11:57 AM

[Battalion]

Mezla PigDog, on 11 November 2017 - 02:08 PM, said:

Oh! And speaking of dicks, I forgot to add: Fuck off Battalion.

Just trying to work out if calling someone a dick and telling them to fuck off is an infringement of the Codes of Conduct under the Personal Attacks heading?

No matter, Ive got broad shoulders.

Just so you know though, both of my friends think I'm a really nice person.

[Battalion]

Tsundoku, on 13 November 2017 - 11:57 AM, said:

He's married to Melania. Ivana was a few trophy trade-ups ago.

Thanks ... the point still remains

[Gorefest]

Battalion, on 13 November 2017 - 11:59 AM, said:

Thanks ... the point still remains

You genuinely don't see the difference between a woman being attracted to a 'powerful' man and said man abusing a position of power to obtain sexual favours or even relationships? It really is very easy: if it is consensual, it is fine. If it isn't, it isn't.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 13 November 2017 - 01:02 PM

[polishgenius]

Battalion, on 13 November 2017 - 11:49 AM, said:

I CAN do the first without doing the second. But I've been with the same woman for 20 years, so I guess I'm out of practice. But I'm not talking about me, or normal people, I'm talking about uber rich powerful men - let me put it this way: would Donald Trump be married to Ivana if he didn't "grab (her) by the pussy"? Did he alter his method on "getting women" for her, or was her receptiveness to his advances different?

I'm really not sure what point you're making though. Even if he did treat her the same way and she accepted it, that doesn't make it okay, or her fault that he did it to her or others. Nor the fault of other women that fuck or marry rich men. You seem to be excusing the behaviour of these men on the basis that some women don't need to be coerced, so naturally they think all women want it.

[Cause]

I think battalion has a point. Even If he is articulating it too directly for such a sensitive topic.

The term I have heard coined recently is sexploitation. Weinstein, Trump etc they call women up to their hotel women. The women think it's about bussiness, the men think it's about sex. Sometimes both get done. If you sleep with the boss to get a promotion, nothing illegal has happened. Just something unethical. There is no doubt this happens, there is no doubt that sometimes everyone is happy. Sometimes someone regrets it later. Sometimes someone is coerced 'sex or your fired' That's rape.

Why are the majority of sales rep women? It's because it's understood that sex appeal is a tool. Science shows we trust and like people who are more attractive. We give them the benefit of the doubt.

If men are using their power and money to their advantage it also true that some women use their appeal. Sometimes it's reversed.

For someone to accept a bribe, someone has to offer one.

Equality and feminism is coming a long way. Still their remains a huge imbalance between the sexes when it comes to the courtship game. Men are still expected to make the first move. Many women still refuse to. So long as this remains the way the game is played women will continue to suffer unwanted advances at clubs, the gym work etc. There is at the moment no universal signal that denotes when women are taking or not taking advances. [I quickly want to point out here that I definitely understand that rape is far more than an unwanted advance]. While the matter of splitting the check has come a long way I would argue men still (regardless of feminism) for the most part are expected to provide. Do you own a car, live by yourself, have a good paying job? I consider these things in the women I date. I know they consider them about me. Still you certainly see more young women with no prospects as yet dating older guys than the other way around for now. I don't think wanting financial security is gold digging, gold digging goes beyond this but battalion is not wrong to point out it exists. Also statistics is just the average, it is def happening with the genders reversed sometimes.

Nothing excuses breaking the law and rape is rape. However, I wouldn't dismiss Battalions assertion that billionaire playboys or hollywood execs can get away with crap with women that the regular man cant. The difference between rape and legal sex as someone pointed out above is consent. A stranger cupping a women's ass in a club is crossing a line, a boyfriend doing it to his girlfriend is sexy.

This post has been edited by Cause: 13 November 2017 - 10:03 PM

[worry]

This might sound harsh in text, but I don't mean to be a jerk about it. I just think a lot of that is wrong.

Statistics aren't just the "average", they're also the proportions. For instance, a staggering 86% of incarcerated women have been the victims of sexual violence in their lives (https://www.salon.co...ence-survivors/). That's not a matter of averaging. And it's not just a matter of what's quantifiable anyway.

Unwanted sexual advances aren't the same as Unwanted romantic interest advances -- the latter are okay (provided proper context), and people deal with them all the time. The former are out of line, always. It's wrongheaded to conflate them, and whether one means to or not in doing so, it implies women can't tell the difference. They can. And those that can't -- for instance, minors (who are girls, not women, of course) -- it's just that much worse.

It also takes more 'benefit of the doubt' than our solar system generates to suggest "The women think it's about bussiness, the men think it's about sex." Predators prey on people lower on the hierarchy. Gatekeepers abuse their power. Weinstein isn't fooling anyone, least of all himself.

"Illegal" is a loose term. Maybe nothing criminal happened (or did and still can't be prosecuted anyway), but if your boss or another industry gatekeeper leverages their power to coerce you into sex, and you sue them, the jury may still very well find in your favor.

Dopey "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" stuff aside, the science of attraction can most definitely be interesting -- and it's certainly not off limits to this thread -- but trying to stitch it to the other discussion going on is (again) wrongheaded and kinda trivializing.

This post has been edited by worry: 13 November 2017 - 10:20 PM

[worry]

Saladin Ahmed posted something today that was pretty on point imo, regarding the male side of this. It's a couple posts only, not a long thread, but the responses have some good content too that elaborate on his point. https://twitter.com/...206629995008002

[Primateus]

worry, on 17 November 2017 - 12:44 AM, said:

Saladin Ahmed posted something today that was pretty on point imo, regarding the male side of this. It's a couple posts only, not a long thread, but the responses have some good content too that elaborate on his point. https://twitter.com/...206629995008002

Well, sure, if we who wields the penis aren't actively harassing ladies and asserting dominance over them, we're beta cucks. You don't want to be a beta cuck, do you?



It's a sick culture, to be sure.

[Mezla PigDog]

Cause - I disagree with everything you said because you cannot separate the traditional rules of dating and tropes of the sexes from the fact that women have been living in a subservient role for centuries. A lot of women act in this way because they have been raised to act that way. And they were raised by women who were probably raised by women who would have been shunned by society if they didn't get married/got divorced/tried to have a well paid career by themselves. We haven't come far enough as a society for women to feel and act like true equals to men.

[Macros]

I didn't get to read the full interview but Morrissey has continued his work of being a top grade asshole by basically blaming the all the victims of Weinstein and co

[Cause]

Mezla PigDog, on 17 November 2017 - 02:16 PM, said:

Cause - I disagree with everything you said because you cannot separate the traditional rules of dating and tropes of the sexes from the fact that women have been living in a subservient role for centuries. A lot of women act in this way because they have been raised to act that way. And they were raised by women who were probably raised by women who would have been shunned by society if they didn't get married/got divorced/tried to have a well paid career by themselves. We haven't come far enough as a society for women to feel and act like true equals to men.

You seem not to be disagreeing with me, you seem to be saying that its a cultural bias that is deeply embedded and needs to be overcome. That's what I think I wa saying. There remains a fundamental imbalance in the courtship rituals that we all use. Another word for imbalance is unequal.