[Siergiej]

There's only one thing that, for me, does not fit the Arathan-Ruthan Gudd theory. Ruthan really hates Draconus. He wants to kill him. And I got the feeling that by the end of Forge of Darkness, Arathan started to kind of... understand and respect his father. Although the later books may bring some change in his attitude, and then that would be a perfect fit. Especially that, since I am sure Korya is somehow related to Quick Ben, it would be a great explanation for why Ruthan recognizes Quick Ben. Arathan was haning out with her in the good ol' times.

[tiam]

What about the fact that ruthan gudd is susceptible to otateral whereas arathan is an azathanai so wouldnt be susceptible to it. Also in a ruthan gudd pov flashback we see draconus and ruthan calling each other friend.

[Silk]

and otaral does not exist at this point of time and as such we cannot eb sure who may or may not be afected by it.... i.e the origonal elders may have no issue but their off spring, depending on their ascpect might......

[Sinisdar Toste]

Silk, on 08 October 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:

and otaral does not exist at this point of time and as such we cannot eb sure who may or may not be afected by it.... i.e the origonal elders may have no issue but their off spring, depending on their ascpect might......

there might be a watering down effect. sechul lath, as a first-gen offspring of two azathanai, is relatively unaffected by otataral. oponn, however, as second-gen offspring of a first-gen azathanai are somewhat susceptible. coming from another direction, suppose that it's when you are born that determines if you're effected by otataral? oponn could have been created in a time when korabas was already otataral-aspected, thus subjecting them to her influence.

[worry]

Still, they are good questions. I think a lot of things fit for Ruthan, but still can't say for sure.

[worry]

Another thing I forgot to mention is that fact that Burn, having apparently been raised by Olar Ethil, has an entirely appropriate name. Thought it was neat how that fit together, since her name always stuck out like that.

[King Lear]

I like both the Ruthan Gudd and the Tayschrenn theories, and I can't decide which one I like more. I just finished reading last night.

Also, google search corrects MBotF character names! Huzzah! I used to have to look them up in the books or on the wiki

[Avernite]

to be honest, i dislike both the Ruthan Gudd and Tayschrenn options.

The Malazan book of the Fallen is, in my opinion, showcasing the greatness humans can reach. The other powers in the world matter, but if half the great people in the Empire are non-human (we already had the Sister of Cold Nights, and QB is something more than just human) it's not so much humans being great. Tayschrenn and Shadowthrone are THE human mages of the Empire, in my opinion, and if Tays proves not human at all it would be a pity. To me, at least.

[blackzoid]

Avernite, on 09 October 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

to be honest, i dislike both the Ruthan Gudd and Tayschrenn options.

The Malazan book of the Fallen is, in my opinion, showcasing the greatness humans can reach. The other powers in the world matter, but if half the great people in the Empire are non-human (we already had the Sister of Cold Nights, and QB is something more than just human) it's not so much humans being great. Tayschrenn and Shadowthrone are THE human mages of the Empire, in my opinion, and if Tays proves not human at all it would be a pity. To me, at least.

Ya, I'm very much in agreement on this. Also I'm getting a bit tired of the "some character is actually an Elder God in disguise" trope here.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Is it necessarily a trope though? The first one we saw was Mael, and the Errant. I guess K'rul/Keruli too. alright, it happens alot, but theres reason for it, and sometimes its an avatar (keruli) And we have been given reason for why Mael did it, and its pretty much in the Errant's nature. Other than that the most Elder God knowledge we have comes from FoD. Up until this point we had no idea who/what they were, ie how they rose to be gods. Sure, blood worship, but why that? We still are unaware of their relationship with chaos and Tiam and the Vitr, which was introduced by ICE pretty late in the game. And are now just being told how their worship affects them (Batshit-crazy Olar Ethil). Timeline-wise, we are not yet even to where humans exist, let alone become aspected. So even their rise as practitioners of magic and the awakening of the new Icarium warrens wouldn't matter yet. Unless Arathan is Icarium. Wait I'm confusing myself...Anyway, this book is not part of MBotF. There are new themes that may have to be reconciled.

I do agree though that I dislike the Tayschrenn thing, but Arathan being Ruthan would not be hard for me to swallow and probably wouldn't prevent me from enjoying the books. I would still like it more if he were Builder, though. Or just something else entirely, like NOT someone we already know.

[Abyss]

Stalking Stonny, on 09 October 2012 - 07:55 PM, said:

Is it necessarily a trope though? The first one we saw was Mael, and the Errant. I guess K'rul/Keruli too. alright, it happens alot, but theres reason for it, ...

This^. And three individuals out of millions is hardly a trope.

Quote

Anyway, this book is not part of MBotF. There are new themes that may have to be reconciled.

This too.

At root SE is trying something different with this series. Some reining in of expectations is fair, i think.

[worry]

I never really liked humans anyway.

[Studlock]

Are we really complaining that Quick Ben was more than human even though we are told he is more that human in MBotF proper (has twelve souls etc). As far as I can tell the only hidden Elder God was Sister of the Cold Nights who died in the first book and was never all that important. Caladan Brood was always something more than what we thought and ISNT an Elder God but a Azathanai. Ruthan was again in the MBotF a mysterious character. IF Tayschrenn ends up being an Azathanai that would be would be a total of two important people in the Empire who were Azathanai. One of them died in the first book, and then got reborn in a different character and the other is now an Elder God's replacement (or something like that). Honestly I don't understand the big deal.

[Kanese S's]

Avernite, on 09 October 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

to be honest, i dislike both the Ruthan Gudd and Tayschrenn options.

The Malazan book of the Fallen is, in my opinion, showcasing the greatness humans can reach. The other powers in the world matter, but if half the great people in the Empire are non-human (we already had the Sister of Cold Nights, and QB is something more than just human) it's not so much humans being great. Tayschrenn and Shadowthrone are THE human mages of the Empire, in my opinion, and if Tays proves not human at all it would be a pity. To me, at least.

We already know that Ruthan is more than he seems, and may not be human, though. T'lan Imass addressing him as "Elder" indicates that there is a strong possibility he may be a different species from his fellow Malazans.

[Kanese S's]

Malice is still alive in MBotF, and she is Poliel. Heard it here first.


Okay, so that idea is probably idiotic for any number of reasons. Still, it wouldn't surprise me if she had actually survived being burnt up and had become someone else.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Hah! Nice try, but Poliel was described by someone, I think Quick Ben's sister, as having multiple joints, so I always took that to mean Forkrul Assail. Malice is the Shadow Mule. No one expects the Shadow Mule.

[tiam]

Poliel is described by paran in tbh. Shes described as largely fa in appearance but with talons so maybe some kccm shake origins aswell? Open to interpretation but yes unlikely its malice.

[Kanese S's]

I do agree that Poliel is more likely Forkrul Assail (or perhaps rather, Forulkan). However, beings can change their appearances over time, both by choice and as an effect of the perceptions of their worshipers, and Malice is Azathanai, after all, and so can conceivably change her appearance if she wants. Or, would be able to if she's still alive. Which she may or may not be. I mean, yeah, Spite and Envy shoving her into an oven and baking her seems like it should be the end for Malice, but Olar Ethil got torched and as we know, that didn't prevent her from continuing her capricious, assholish ways for eons to come.

[King Lear]

Isn't Sechul Forkrul-looking when the Errant comes to find him? I can't remember which book that is, Reaper's Gale maybe?

Anyway I don't think we can really rely too heavily on physical appearances when it comes to gods and goddesses.

[worry]

He certainly is...and he's probably therefore the first Forkrul, whom Killy based the rest of the species on. It's interesting that Errastas is only his half brother via Grizzin Farl, and we don't learn who the mother is. I wonder what he looks like before the evolution of human-kind. But in terms of Sechul, I'd imagine by their very nature that they are wholly satisfied with their forms.