[worry]

And I haven't read any of the posts from anyone else yet, and I'm gonna ramble all my thoughts here, and they've all probably already been said elsewhere, and I'm tired and kinda light-headed, but oh well.

First off, I loved it from start to finish. I think it rivals TTH as SE's best written. I'm sure everybody was pretty wowed by the maps and Dramatis Personae, and the instant vast mysteries they inspire right off the bat. And my first big grin/heart-racing moment came at the end of that DP: last name under others, Olar Ethil...I was already eating my complaints about her finale in TCG. Nothing could have pleased me more, even the fact that Grizzin Farl was there in the DP too.

The other big reveal was the Azathanai/EG connection. Not everything clicks into place right away, but the way they start to, just from this bit of information...man it packs a punch.

Another pretty quick turnaround for me came with the Vitr...I take back any unkind thing I said about it from OST. The Queen of Dreams clearly has a connection to it, and it makes sense (well, unexplained sense) for that to be Tays' destination. Also, I love that it was T'riss who says "The sea does not dream of you." which is one of my absolute favorite quotes from the series.' Still don't know if the Vitr is related to Chaos or what though. We see a different form of Chaos both at the Spar of Andii, and in the storm from Stonewielder, not to mention all the other times we get a glimpse of it.

To return to Olar Ethil, the reveals that she mothered Burn (and who's the daddy?) and that she mothered Draconus' THREE wicked daughters are pretty nuts. I really just love the whole concept of the Azathanai. But that puts a whole damper on their mom being Sheltatha Lore. Unless it doesn't! And by the way, we see Sheltatha Lore and Sukul in this book anyway, so the Osserc/Scabandari + Tiam matchups don't match up in the natural way. Which leads me to believe, that all the mother/fatherhood relationships that seem awry in this manner all actually just have to do with their coming into the Blood of Tiam/Eleint Soletaken-ness. As in, Spite and Envy will get their draconean blood from Sheltatha, but not by being fetuses in her womb or anything like that. And so on.

Also, that brings me to Spite and Envy, who actually made me nauseous in a couple scenes. They are some of SE's most stomach-churning creations. From manipulating Osserc via arbitrary telepathy to choke a man to death, to "filling up" Malice (which maybe made me the most sick), to eventually killing her, to setting a horny dog onto her and Arathan both. They are basically the worst. I seriously thought they were gonna rape Sandalath (via telepathy on Venth) while she watched the battle...luckily that didn't happen. But that just means the bad stuff that happens to her is yet to come.

I have no idea who the heavy-sounding person behind the door in Dracons Hold is, but I wanna know. I DID figure out that Arathan is probably Ruthan Gudd, which others probably pointed out elsewhere -- very understandable antipathy from his youth towards a dog; weird connection to drowning/ice; a grudge against Draconus. We'll see if I'm right.

I assume the Jhereck hostages/pups left with Tulas will eventually become the Deragoth or hounds or whatever he did. Somehow they're gonna be stripped of their shifting abilities, maybe even just through forgetting. But the Jhereck don't seem to exists anymore, so it's gonna be a species wide thing I'd wager.

The Jheck on the other hand, I didn't know what to make of them: The Dog Runners seem to be Imass, who are at the stage where Jhagut Tyrants are just starting to enter into their existence. Which puts this before the Imass First Empire, correct? Which certainly puts them before the Human First Empire. Though the Jheck seemed to be an offshoot of them. I suppose they could be the ones to bring the concept of Soletaken/D'ivers to the FE down the line. This is something I'm waiting to see developed hopefully.

It's also unclear if humans even exist. The High King certainly does, though his kingdom here is surely one that predates the KCCM tech-destroyed one by numerous cycles. Who knows what he rules over?

I was gonna bet that the Azathanai Old Man was Kallor, but no dice. Then I thought it might be Mael, but no dice again as he already moved away. Also I thought the River God might be Mael, because he's super old and because his resurrection might play into Mael's soft spot for forgotten gods, and keeping their names/memories alive Under Da Sea. But the River God dies again, so oh well. I now think Old Man must be Edgewalker.

By the way, the fact that basically all of this stuff happens on Wu, that all of this happened there, is probably the biggest bombshell of the entire book. And yet we were kind of set up for it from the very beginning, when we come to realize just what the Imperial Warren is made of. I think K'rul has an enlarged heart.

Also the Tiste pre-splitting, their skin tones, all those revelations got me smiling. As did the origin of the Shake...probably won't be till book three that we start seeing Edur encroaching, but book 2 seems to be the place where the Shake start getting in between Light and Dark. I'm basing that purely on the book's title though, so grain of salt.

I think maybe Korya, Haut's Mahybe that Draconus will give something to eventually, is gonna be Sister of Cold Nights. I don't think she's gonna be of the Shake. It could also be the older High Priestess Emral, but I don't think so.

There was a whole lot of personal turmoil and tragedy in this one, eh? Miserable love quadrangles all over the place, but I won't get into that. There was plenty of heartbreak in other ways: I loved Hish Tulla, she was wonderfully drawn, and I fear for what might happen to her next. Orfantal's story was absolutely heartbreaking (Wreneck's too btw). Narad's descent was gut-wrenching, which I'd differentiate from heartbreaking. And Kadaspala is one of the most thrilling backstory-fill-ins in the whole series -- his rant about painting the god he needs was just wow -- and also his insane and tragic grouping of himself with Rise Herat and Gallan was a stroke of genius. Man, there really wasn't a single wasted character in the whole book. Even Hunn Raal's three cousins -- who are so faintly described at the start by Sharenas -- get filled in with personality and agency.

Both the names Rise Herat and Ilgast Rend sounded familiar to me...did we see them elsewhere? Were they just mentioned in that same TTH list with Hish Tulla? Am I just crazy?

Man there's a whole bunch of stuff I didn't mention, like Father Light in the flesh, Osserc going off to ascend or something, how abysmal a dude Hunn Raal is (I wish he had a few more POVs though), Caladan Brood and how wonderful the "There will be peace" refrain echoed throughout. ERRASTAS! The obvious appearance by proto-Quick Ben. Just kidding. Gothos and Hood.

I just cannot wait for more.

This post has been edited by worrywort: 02 October 2012 - 12:38 PM

[worry]

Also, the tapeworm inside Ribs becomes D'rek. Ribs/D'rek/The Snake -- it all makes sense!

[worry]

Also, this book has absolutely no mentions of the KCCM, am I correct in that? But their treatment of the Jaghut is supposed to forecast the Tyrants.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

 worrywort, on 02 October 2012 - 12:49 PM, said:

Also, the tapeworm inside Ribs becomes D'rek. Ribs/D'rek/The Snake -- it all makes sense!

Ha! Love it! An ascended tapeworm...why not?

Arathan is prob Ruthan because the names are so close and so far there is nothing to counter that theory. Elsewhere I've posited that Arathan could be TTH's Builder, but it was herbally enhanced and I've since distanced myself from it, though it does have a nice ring.

I think Olar Ethil is turning into my favorite character, although not because of her actions specifically but how she manipulates people and is just so warped and bizarre. Even if half of what she says is bullshit, she had a hand in pretty much everything. I don't know how SE can keep from writing her into every scene. And to think her introduction to us was as a silent dragon crossing into the Tellan warren, not to be seen for another seven books.

[Khellendros]

I think you now need to read a few of the threads in this forum and see how your initial thoughts/conclusions/feelings are changed

One thing I haven't mentioned elsewhere, but may as well mention now - I was a touch disappointed that the Lord of Hate turned out to be Gothos. Gothos has never struck me as a particularly strong character, and the Lord of Hate just sounded...cooler! than Gothos had a right to be I was hoping it would either be a brand new character, or someone entirely left field. Personal opinion, that's all.

[tiam]

 Stalking Stonny, on 02 October 2012 - 01:45 PM, said:

 worrywort, on 02 October 2012 - 12:49 PM, said:

Also, the tapeworm inside Ribs becomes D'rek. Ribs/D'rek/The Snake -- it all makes sense!

Ha! Love it! An ascended tapeworm...why not?

Arathan is prob Ruthan because the names are so close and so far there is nothing to counter that theory. Elsewhere I've posited that Arathan could be TTH's Builder, but it was herbally enhanced and I've since distanced myself from it, though it does have a nice ring.

I think Olar Ethil is turning into my favorite character, although not because of her actions specifically but how she manipulates people and is just so warped and bizarre. Even if half of what she says is bullshit, she had a hand in pretty much everything. I don't know how SE can keep from writing her into every scene. And to think her introduction to us was as a silent dragon crossing into the Tellan warren, not to be seen for another seven books.

RE- Ruthan Gudd- Arathan link- The problem with this, as ive mentioned elsewhere, is that Ruthan Gudd is susceptible to Otateral which he wouldnt be if he was an ancient being like the son of 2 Azathanai, which is how hes portrayed in this book. Also in the POV Ruthan Gudd flashback scenes we see Draconus bantering with Ruthan and calling him friend, not son. Admittedly with the names its an easy link to make and SE could probably gloss over the things ive mentioned if Arathan is Ruthan Gudd but I dont think its him.

 Khellendros, on 02 October 2012 - 02:44 PM, said:

I think you now need to read a few of the threads in this forum and see how your initial thoughts/conclusions/feelings are changed

One thing I haven't mentioned elsewhere, but may as well mention now - I was a touch disappointed that the Lord of Hate turned out to be Gothos. Gothos has never struck me as a particularly strong character, and the Lord of Hate just sounded...cooler! than Gothos had a right to be I was hoping it would either be a brand new character, or someone entirely left field. Personal opinion, that's all.

It was always going to be Gothos

Why you dont think hes a good character is beyond me hes one of my faves, as are all the Jaghut.

[worry]

Yah I saw you mention that in Abyss's thread I think, which I read (deliriously) after my post. I couldn't really think about it because I was really tired. I think what we know about Arathan's mother is that she's alive, she mourns for their separation, and she might be an Azathanai but that's still one of the mysteries presented by the book. It's a good point you bring up, but I wonder, if anyone (Elder era or not) started primarily using new warren magic, would they become susceptible to otataral? I dunno.

Anyway, yah, I will check out other threads for sure now. Is this Drusas Achamian fellow legit? Like is his True Identities thread full of his guesses, or is he privy to genuine spoiler info that I should avoid?

[champ]

 worrywort, on 02 October 2012 - 07:32 PM, said:

Is this Drusas Achamian fellow legit? Like is his True Identities thread full of his guesses, or is he privy to genuine spoiler info that I should avoid?

Just theories, guesses and speculation.

[Kanese S's]

I also kinda recoiled at just how vile Spite and Envy are in this. I hadn't recalled either of them being this... well... awful... in the book of the fallen.

I'm not so sure Arathan is Ruthan Gudd. Somehow I feel like he has something else in store.

Somehow I always suspected that Mother Dark was herself some form of ascended mortal.

I'm still wondering if Nightchill will make her entrance in this trilogy, or if she has already and I missed it. Korya being her is an interesting idea.

She refers to K'rul in the main series as her brother, but as we can see, familial titles are often only that, titles.

[worry]

I really like Khell's theory that Old Man is actually Grallin. Wonder if he exploded.

[worry]

I kinda think the teenage Bordersword with the fancy moves will become Feral somehow. We HAVE to see Feral some time, in action.

[blackzoid]

 worrywort, on 02 October 2012 - 12:17 PM, said:

Also, that brings me to Spite and Envy, who actually made me nauseous in a couple scenes. They are some of SE's most stomach-churning creations. From manipulating Osserc via arbitrary telepathy to choke a man to death, to "filling up" Malice (which maybe made me the most sick), to eventually killing her, to setting a horny dog onto her and Arathan both. They are basically the worst. I seriously thought they were gonna rape Sandalath (via telepathy on Venth) while she watched the battle...luckily that didn't happen. But that just means the bad stuff that happens to her is yet to come.

Wort you are the best, but seriously...what the fuck?
Telepathy? Were you drunk when you read those scenes?
This is a wind-up as regards the Osserc scene right?
Or have I just misread entire sections?

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 02 October 2012 - 11:00 PM

[worry]

After choking Malice to death, and after Spite admits that she's been practicing manipulating people (ie Ivis), she then crows that "Now I've done it twice. I've killed twice, both times the same way. I choked them to death." And Envy replies, "That's what you get for going too far in your dreams. I told you to stay closer to home. You look through too many eyes."

"I didn't just look," Spite said. "I made him like it."

This post has been edited by worrywort: 03 October 2012 - 12:14 AM

[Defiance]

 worrywort, on 03 October 2012 - 12:13 AM, said:

After choking Malice to death, and after Spite admits that she's been practicing manipulating people (ie Ivis), she then crows that "Now I've done it twice. I've killed twice, both times the same way. I choked them to death." And Envy replies, "That's what you get for going too far in your dreams. I told you to stay closer to home. You look through too many eyes."

"I didn't just look," Spite said. "I made him like it."

Awesome catch. I remember reading that scene and trying to figure out who the hell it was referencing.

[blackzoid]

 worrywort, on 03 October 2012 - 12:13 AM, said:

After choking Malice to death, and after Spite admits that she's been practicing manipulating people (ie Ivis), she then crows that "Now I've done it twice. I've killed twice, both times the same way. I choked them to death." And Envy replies, "That's what you get for going too far in your dreams. I told you to stay closer to home. You look through too many eyes."

"I didn't just look," Spite said. "I made him like it."

Wow, I'm impressed.
Great find.

If you think about it, this will work well as regards the Draconus/Anomander fight where ,according to that history that Baruk reads at the start of TTH, Osserc was also involved. Both Tiste were apparently wielded as weapons by the Sisters.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 03 October 2012 - 03:38 PM

[Drusas Achamian]

 Kanese S, on 02 October 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:

I'm not so sure Arathan is Ruthan Gudd. Somehow I feel like he has something else in store.

His personality could expand or change in the future, but I find Ruthan Gudd too jolly, funny and easy-going when you compare him with Arathan,
but that's just ' theories, guesses and speculation'...

[worry]

I'd say there are hints laid out, but they are far from certain and could be misdirection or hints laid out for a relationship, not a direct arrow.

And yah, I think the depth of power laid out here for Spite and Envy is...disturbing to say the least.

[Kanese S's]

I'm left wondering if Malice is really dead.

[worry]

I was just thinking, this book (and presumably the next couple) pretty well explain how the Deragoth can be both a naturally existing/evolved animal as well as Hounds of Darkness...no need of a creator.

I was also wondering if once KG gets put into K'rul's heart, what will be left behind? The land that becomes Seven Cities? Is the sea of Raraku located where the Vitr is now? Or maybe the Otataral Island? I dunno if they really line up. The Jaghut Odhan and the Jhag Odhan may ultimately prove to be unrelated areas, but just a thought.

[tiam]

On my reread now and close to where ww excellent catch was. P.388 states is that disturbing conversation where the sisters discuss making each get raped by dogs and theres a small section about power. In amongst that is mention of a dog Ivis had to kill and its suggested that spite, envy and malice held arathan down while he was raped by a dog and how he doesnt remember/blocks it out. This might explain his lack of confidence and other traits that make him feel worthless. A disturbing spot but one that might explain a few things.

Also regarding the growth of azathanai and how when they get hut they simply adapt very quickly and this was the same for rud ellale when he has his wrist broken and it heals with twice the muscle to protect it. Sort of an adaptive stress reaction.