[Obdigore]

Malankazooie, on 17 December 2020 - 08:57 PM, said:

Do you guys think CDPR will have a turn around (reputation saving) scenario like No Man's Sky / Activision-Bundgie (Destiny 2) for console owners? It seems like it's settled that last gen (PS4 / XBone) is pretty much hosed. Or do you think they will try and fix the game to the point that playing on those consoles will be enjoyable? How bad is this on PS5/XBox Series X btw? I get the feeling it is worse on a PS5.

Series X is fine. I've got around 30 hours in and I had 3-4 floating objects (datapads) in the air after firefights, and a single crash.

I feel like people forgot Witcher 3 was in pretty bad shape on release too. Everyone expects games that have been designed for 7 years and had another 7 years of post-release content on day 1.

The big on CDPR's face, imo, is how terrible it is on the older gen consoles. Game should have never been released for them.

[Malankazooie]

Obdigore, on 18 December 2020 - 01:43 AM, said:

Malankazooie, on 17 December 2020 - 08:57 PM, said:

Do you guys think CDPR will have a turn around (reputation saving) scenario like No Man's Sky / Activision-Bundgie (Destiny 2) for console owners? It seems like it's settled that last gen (PS4 / XBone) is pretty much hosed. Or do you think they will try and fix the game to the point that playing on those consoles will be enjoyable? How bad is this on PS5/XBox Series X btw? I get the feeling it is worse on a PS5.

Series X is fine. I've got around 30 hours in and I had 3-4 floating objects (datapads) in the air after firefights, and a single crash.

I feel like people forgot Witcher 3 was in pretty bad shape on release too. Everyone expects games that have been designed for 7 years and had another 7 years of post-release content on day 1.

The big on CDPR's face, imo, is how terrible it is on the older gen consoles. Game should have never been released for them.

Oh, I remember the Witcher 3 problems. I remember almost quitting the game after I lost progress and had to start from a previous save. I remember one of the armor set diagram locations was bugged/glitched and I couldn't get it, and the bug wasn't resolved until the second DLC was released. I remember Roach getting stuck and I had to quit out and start up again. Witcher 3 ended up being one of the best games of the last generation that I enjoyed immensly, so I'm glad I tolerated the bugs and stayed with it.

I plan on getting a PS5, but that probably isn't happening any time soon. I saw that Sony is removing the PS4 version of Cyberpunk 2077 from its store and offering refunds. Is there even talk of an outside chance they will attempt to get it in an acceptable working manner (via large and numerous patch releases I suspect) for the older consoles?

[Aptorian]

They'll definitely work on fixing the old gen versions of Cyberpunk. It's a 100 million+ sized consumer base, compared to maybe 10 million new gen consoles in the wild. So in terms of marketing, PS4 and X1 are the most important market.

But it is pretty crazy to hear the game has been pulled from PSN and all Cyberpunk owners, PS4 and PS5, are being offered a refund.

[Mentalist]

That's impressive.
That's Arkham Knight PC version level of bad.

[Morgoth]

Listening to the Giantbomb guys, whom mostly seems to be playing on the next gen consoles, the game breaking bugs seem to be very present there too.

[Serenity]

Morgoth, on 18 December 2020 - 07:01 AM, said:

Listening to the Giantbomb guys, whom mostly seems to be playing on the next gen consoles, the game breaking bugs seem to be very present there too.

I'm assuming that's just because they're playing the PS4 and Xbone versions via backwards compatibility - the PS5 and Series X versions don't come until next year, I believe.

[Serenity]

Werthead, on 17 December 2020 - 05:13 PM, said:

Serenity, on 15 December 2020 - 09:40 AM, said:

I've put in around 15 hours play time so far, no crashes, no bugs, just two minor visual glitches where items were floating in mid-air, so I guess I've been very lucky. The only time I've noticed any major frame rate hiccups was when I was using a motorcycle. GOG's own FPS counter doesn't work with it, and neither does Fraps. Might have to try Afterburner, but I suspect it's been hovering around the 30fps mark the rest of the time.

I actually want to concentrate on Trails of Cold Steel II at the moment, so I'll only be dipping in and out of Cyberpunk. At least that's what I keep telling myself. It'll be interesting to see what sort of updates it gets in the meantime. What I've played so far has been fantastic, though.

I don't think it's luck, I just think the PC and next-gen versions really were ready (or almost ready) to go, and the Day 0/1 patches and the new AMD/nVidia drivers nuked most of the problems experienced by reviewers in one fell swoop. Even the Pro/Elite versions are playable, if buggier than they should be. It's really the OG PS4 and XB1 versions that are seriously borked, by CDPR's own admission they didn't test them enough.

Yeah, no doubt you're right. I managed to get a FPS counter going by playing it through Steam. As I suspected, it was around 30fps on my pc, dipping occasionally when driving and particularly at night time. I have this urge to have it looking as good as possible, so I've been playing it on Ultra settings, but I've done some fine tuning, in both Windows settings and NVidia settings. Once I'd done those I went in game and knocked a couple of settings down to medium and now my fps is holding up between 35 and 50, which I don't think is too bad for a six year old pc like mine. I expect I could get it up to 60, especially if I turned off contact shadows and such, but I'm very happy with the way it looks and feels at the moment so I don't want to reduce anything else.

[QuickTidal]

Did I hear right? Did Sony pull the game from the PS store due to the bugs?

Has that ever happened before?

[Aptorian]

There's probably been some games that weren't high profile but Cyberpunk's case is definitely exceptional.

I feel like it should be noted that the speculation is, that Cyberpunk isn't being removed because of bugs, or even because the players are asking for refunds. The reason why it's being removed is because CDPR threw Sony under the bus in terms of PR. CDPR stated that of course players could ask for a refund, I think it was on an investor call, with out clearing it with Microsoft and Sony. That's despite Sony being very strict with offering that kind of service. So suddenly Sony is inundated with tons of people asking for a refund, which probably has to be handled manually, making Sony look like the bad guy.

So Sony gives CDPR the middle finger and removes the game from their store and refunding anybody who wants it. Probably costing Sony a lot of money but really hurting CDPR both in terms of money and esteem.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 18 December 2020 - 03:55 PM

[QuickTidal]

Aptorian, on 18 December 2020 - 03:48 PM, said:

There's probably been some games that weren't high profile but Cyberpunk's case is definitely exceptional.

I feel like it should be noted that the speculation is, that Cyberpunk isn't being removed because of bugs, or even because the players are asking for refunds. The reason why it's being removed is because CDPR threw Sony under the bus in terms of PR. CDPR stated that of course players could ask for a refund, I think it was on an investor call, with out clearing it with Microsoft and Sony. That's despite Sony being very strict with offering that kind of service. So suddenly Sony is inundated with tons of people asking for a refund, which probably has to be handled manually, making Sony look like the bad guy.

So Sony gives CDPR the middle finger and removes the game from their store and refunding anybody who wants it. Probably costing Sony a lot of money but really hurting CDPR both in terms of money and esteem.

huh. Okay that sounds like it makes sense.

[Malankazooie]

Microsoft is also offering full refunds now, but will leave the game up, which is odd, unless the game isn't as buggy on the Xbox consoles. Also, sounds like getting a refund from Microsoft has been an easier experience.

Microsoft Is Also Offering Full Refunds For 'Cyberpunk 2077' On Xbox One, But With A Big Difference

[Garak]

I got it on release day and other than a few visual bugs (and those minor) I haven't had any issues with it on PC. It's a good game but the console problem is big and well .... people were expecting this thing to cure cancer and blindness.

[Werthead]

Malankazooie, on 17 December 2020 - 08:57 PM, said:

Do you guys think CDPR will have a turn around (reputation saving) scenario like No Man's Sky / Activision-Bundgie (Destiny 2) for console owners? It seems like it's settled that last gen (PS4 / XBone) is pretty much hosed. Or do you think they will try and fix the game to the point that playing on those consoles will be enjoyable? How bad is this on PS5/XBox Series X btw? I get the feeling it is worse on a PS5.

They did it before. THE WITCHER 1 released in 2007 in a functionally unplayable state. It had load screens which took 3-5 minutes to load or quickload, which rapidly made the game (which was punishingly difficult on anything other than the easiest difficulty level) impossible to play without having the patience of a saint. It also had a lot of visual bugs and issues where you could break quests. They fixed the loading problem in a patch after a couple of weeks and then a year after the original game's release they unleashed the "Enhanced Edition" which fixed all the bugs, completely re-recorded all of the English voice acting (which had been described as lacklustre) and re-translated half the script (and THE WITCHER 1 is not a small game, it's a 50-60 hour RPG) as a free update for everyone who'd already bought the game, and at a steep discount for new buyers.

CDPR have to do that again, with steroids, to win back their goodwill.

Quote

Microsoft is also offering full refunds now, but will leave the game up, which is odd, unless the game isn't as buggy on the Xbox consoles. Also, sounds like getting a refund from Microsoft has been an easier experience.

MS & CDPR have a more positive relationship, I believe, and CDPR's comments didn't throw them under a bus as much as Sony. I also believe that X-Box One and Elite owners have managed to get somewhat better performance out of the game than PS4 and Pro players.

[Malankazooie]

Werthead, on 18 December 2020 - 09:51 PM, said:

Malankazooie, on 17 December 2020 - 08:57 PM, said:

Do you guys think CDPR will have a turn around (reputation saving) scenario like No Man's Sky / Activision-Bundgie (Destiny 2) for console owners? It seems like it's settled that last gen (PS4 / XBone) is pretty much hosed. Or do you think they will try and fix the game to the point that playing on those consoles will be enjoyable? How bad is this on PS5/XBox Series X btw? I get the feeling it is worse on a PS5.

They did it before. THE WITCHER 1 released in 2007 in a functionally unplayable state. It had load screens which took 3-5 minutes to load or quickload, which rapidly made the game (which was punishingly difficult on anything other than the easiest difficulty level) impossible to play without having the patience of a saint. It also had a lot of visual bugs and issues where you could break quests. They fixed the loading problem in a patch after a couple of weeks and then a year after the original game's release they unleashed the "Enhanced Edition" which fixed all the bugs, completely re-recorded all of the English voice acting (which had been described as lacklustre) and re-translated half the script (and THE WITCHER 1 is not a small game, it's a 50-60 hour RPG) as a free update for everyone who'd already bought the game, and at a steep discount for new buyers.

CDPR have to do that again, with steroids, to win back their goodwill.

Quote

Microsoft is also offering full refunds now, but will leave the game up, which is odd, unless the game isn't as buggy on the Xbox consoles. Also, sounds like getting a refund from Microsoft has been an easier experience.

MS & CDPR have a more positive relationship, I believe, and CDPR's comments didn't throw them under a bus as much as Sony. I also believe that X-Box One and Elite owners have managed to get somewhat better performance out of the game than PS4 and Pro players.

I know Microsoft had an Xbox Series X with a Cyberpunk 2077 themed/skinned console at launch, so it makes sense there is more at stake and efforts will be more focused there. I won't be surprised in the weeks/months ahead, as CDPR tries to turn this around, if Microsoft gets the 'platinum account' treatment.

[Malankazooie]

Cruised by a headline stating that Cyberpunk 2077 will throw its efforts into being like a GTA Online. Not surprising, everyone is doing a GaaS / seasons type model. But I was wondering, do you guys think this can get it turned around? When this gets sorted out, there's a small part of me that wants to still play it, but there is a larger part of me that is entrenched/anchored in the mindset of saying a big "fuck off" to them.

This post has been edited by Malankazooie: 26 December 2020 - 09:24 PM

[Aptorian]

Turned around? It's sold 13 million copies so far. Sure there's a giant media shit storm right now, mainly because it's the end of the year and there's no other news to drown it out - But it's still an ambitious and impressive block buster experience despite the bugs.

I'll play it when it's ready, probably at the end of the next year or 2022. I hope it gets some big story expansions like the Witcher as well.

[Werthead]

Briar King, on 19 December 2020 - 03:35 AM, said:

What the actual fuck? This is a solid burn. Rather jaw dropping to

Yup, the "city simulation" aspects of CP77 are somewhat limited, apparently by design (CDPR decided that as a story-driven RPG they didn't have to worry about people trying to shoot the police every five seconds and coming up with a believable response system which was a...bold assumption on their part).

I also note they don't compare GTA5's storyline, characters, player choice, reactivity, stealth, combat or immersive sim qualities to those of CP77 though because that would be a rather different story. And comparing two games in two different genres trying to do two different things because they have a superficial similarity is always going to be simplistic. Generates a lot of hits though.

Quote

Cruised by a headline stating that Cyberpunk 2077 will throw its efforts into being like a GTA Online. Not surprising, everyone is doing a GaaS / seasons type model. But I was wondering, do you guys think this can get it turned around? When this gets sorted out, there's a small part of me that wants to still play it, but there is a larger part of me that is entrenched/anchored in the mindset of saying a big "fuck off" to them.

I haven't seen any evidence of that. We know they're making a major online expansion of CP77 but they haven't indicated what that will be. There's some rumour that it will revolve around a party-based RPG experience, so you assemble a team (as in the pen and paper game), with a netrunner, a combat tank, a support tech etc and take on missions that will be much bigger than anything in the SP game (thing GTA Online's heists, but more of them and more intricately designed). That might be more wishful thinking than reality, but I can't see the game as-is supporting an action multiplayer format like GTA Online either. The map design feels much more like MP would have to be based around small team instances rather than a big virtual world.

Quote

Turned around? It's sold 13 million copies so far. Sure there's a giant media shit storm right now, mainly because it's the end of the year and there's no other news to drown it out - But it's still an ambitious and impressive block buster experience despite the bugs.

I'll play it when it's ready, probably at the end of the next year or 2022. I hope it gets some big story expansions like the Witcher as well.

Yup, there's two big DLC expansions planned for next year. I'm assuming they'll be like Witcher 3's, one medium-sized expansion on the existing map like Hearts of Stone, taking 10-20 hours to complete, and a massive expansion, maybe on an expansion to the map, taking 30+ hours to complete like Blood & Wine. I suspect they'll be folding a lot of QOL improvements in as well (like how Hearts of Stone added barbers to the game so you can change your haircut, and perhaps expand the one single tattoo parlour in the game to a franchise, or at least let you visit it outside of story missions).

The hate-on for the game I think is somewhat justified - the PS4 and XB1 versions were total disasters and shouldn't have been released - but in many other respects on PC it's been a smoother launch than other games released this year (like AC Valhalla's tendency to just swallow saves with no explanation, or Horizon Zero Dawn and Red Dead Redemption 2's PC versions crashing like MFs once every 2-3 hours without fail). I've also been a bit bemused by the voluble criticisms of CDPR's overtime and crunch requirements for the game (asking developers to work 8 hours a week extra over the 40 hour norm) and the absolute, deafening silence about vastly worse crunch at almost every American, Canadian and Japanese AAA studio in existence. The RDR2 devs reported working 60+ hour weeks for almost two years solid to get it done, and in the final rush out the door a few people hit 90-100 hours (which is effectively living in the office and doing nothing but working on the game and occasionally eating and barely sleeping). Schreier did have a story on that when he was Kotaku which was very quickly brushed aside in the stampede to give it maximum scores.

[Aptorian]

I certainly think the criticism is valid but like you say, the reaction seems fever pitch compared to so many other releases. It's a combination of ultra high expectations, unrealistic promises by CDPR, terrible business practice and a drip feed of drama.

I suspect that there's a bunch of systems that they had to cut that gets reinstated over the next year. Hopefully in 12 months time the game is worthy of it's hype.

[Werthead]

My review.

So, so much greatness but also quite a bit of jank they need fix in the coming months.

[Khellendros]

Werthead, on 28 December 2020 - 12:25 AM, said:

I've also been a bit bemused by the voluble criticisms of CDPR's overtime and crunch requirements for the game (asking developers to work 8 hours a week extra over the 40 hour norm) and the absolute, deafening silence about vastly worse crunch at almost every American, Canadian and Japanese AAA studio in existence. The RDR2 devs reported working 60+ hour weeks for almost two years solid to get it done, and in the final rush out the door a few people hit 90-100 hours (which is effectively living in the office and doing nothing but working on the game and occasionally eating and barely sleeping). Schreier did have a story on that when he was Kotaku which was very quickly brushed aside in the stampede to give it maximum scores.

I think the issue here is that CDPR management previously talked about how they 'don't do crunch' and praised themselves about it. Only, turns out they do. And then (I think?) later it turned out that it wasn't just over that last few weeks period before the game's release, but for months beforehand. So yes, the crunch wasn't as bad as at other studios, but I'm not sure that's the point. Crunch is bad practice, a result of poor management more than anything else. And it was right to call CDPR out on it after they went back on their own words.