Malazan Empire: George RR Martin - Malazan Empire

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George RR Martin Rate Topic: -----

#241 User is offline   Malarion 

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Posted 30 April 2004 - 06:14 PM

quote:
I see your understanding of the real world is as complete as it appears.


*cough* He reads fantasy, as do you. Where does reality come into this?

quote:
GRRM doesn't punch a clock. He doesn't get paid by the hour (more's the pity in his case). He doesn't have deadlines that he /must/ meet, like for a newspaper or a magazine. Whatever gave you the impression that there was some sort of deadline that GRRM must meet? Is it your righteous indignation that you personally are being made to wait an absolutely unreasonable length of time to find out who the next person is that gets penetrated by The Imp?

Or maybe he just expects an artist to do his bloody job? If you had any degree of professionalism about yourself you would understand his point. Martin, despite being an almost peerless author, has no proffessionalism, otherwise he'd be finished. And this point isn't open to debate.

quote:
Let me ask you a question - how long did it take JRRT to complete Lord of the Rings?


Not exactly clued up in your history, are you. Tolkien had written everything before he sent it to be published. Hence any delay between book 1 and 3 was due to the publisher. A poor argument, that one. Must try harder.

quote:
Hahaha. That's /so/ laughable. A Song of Ice and Fire is almost solid gold to any publisher in the world. Like there wouldn't be a huge bidding war for the rest of the books if GRRM was axed!

Oh yeah, another consequence is getting blasted on internet discussion boards. I'm sure that one is causing him to lose a /lot/ of sleep.


Don't be so naive. He's at the top just now, but with his continuous delays he will be overtaken. Its the same with fiction as it is with everything else. Jordan once ruled supreme, and his fans are dropping away daily. Nothing lasts forever mate. Not even Martin.
And if he isn't losing sleep over fan discontent then the man's an arsehole. If he's only writijng for himself then he can keep his story on his computer and read it at his leisure. If he wants others to read it then he owes them a certain amount of respect.
I don't think Martin has this attitude. So, please, don't think to speak for him. You have neither his talent nor his wit.
Grumpy is only my middle name.
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#242 Guest_Zollo_*

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Posted 06 December 2004 - 12:53 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Zollo:
quote:
Originally posted by Zollo:
Long time lurker here, but couldn't keep myself from writing a reaction to the review that was posted on the previous page.

For starters, to get things straight: I am both a huge Erikson and Martin fan, though for different reasons and in different ways. Furthermore I am not part of the hallelujah-Jordan movement, nor am I off the opinion that his work is garbage.

George R.R. Martin's "Song of Ice and Fire" series, of which the Game of Thrones is the first of a projected seven volumes (the fourth of which is due to be published in mid-2004),

Heh, sadly, no AFFC as of yet, spring next year if we're lucky. Posted Image

is the most overrated fantasy series of the day. The poor writing and the lack of likeable or believable characters combine to create an unworkable mess.

Yep, it is important to start a review with a catchy phrase, leaving no doubt whatsoever about the direction of the following review and the lack of objectivity.

Martin's show-biz mind comes up with numerous ludicrous moments. His "heroes" are impossible to take seriously because they keep doing impossibly dumb things such as putting themselves and their families into the hands of their enemies. His "villains" are impossible to take seriously because they are incapable of successfully assassinating a middle aged woman, or, for that matter, a young child.

Hugely taken out of context. I would really like to know how the reviewer fabricated this piece of stunning 'evidence'.

(The fact that Martin's characters are generally trying to commit such deeds makes for extremely unpleasant as well as frustrating reading).

It is a wonder the man made it to the last page.

The scare quotes two paragraphs above indicate the moral ambiguity of Martin's universe. He does not really believe in heroism or villainy, which makes for an extremely blah story. Granted that two-shaded, black or white storytelling is _almost_ as mindless as writing gets, Martin still does not improve on this. He actually falls short of even that low standard. His one shade of gray in the middle for everybody is even more mindless. It also creates a story that is inherently uninteresting - why should the reader care who "wins" when one character is as good/bad as another?

Because Martins characters are grey (=human)in general means that they are less interesting? The reviewer would prefer a story in which shiny goodlooking heroes enter the stage to run through shifty-eyed, evil cackling villains?

Like horror movie protagonists, Martin's characters are often defenestrated, throat-slashed, thrown into the river, or set on fire - yet they just keep coming. The extremely graphic violence would be less unbearable if it weren't all so ineffective.

Violence? A lot? Yes, that is true. The world of Westeros is basically set in the Middle Ages. Not one of the most peaceful eras.
Extremely graphic? Well, no idea, one persons definition of extremely graphic does not equal everyones opinion. Since I have never seen nor heard about an age ban....

The motivations and actions of the characters are completely unbelievable. How much familial loyalty would a real man have left if his father had the young man's girlfriend raped by an entire company of soldiers (including the young man's brother) because she was unworthy of their family?

Hmm, lets see. Here our reviewer aims at something essential in Martins books. As it turns out, the latters characters are wholly unbelievable. This is supported by an example of how family loyalty might be affected if X happened (see quote).
Woo woo! Here comes the clue train. Last stop is you! You are apparently of the opinion that the characterization is essentially wrong, and that is fine. Backing up an accusation of that magnitude by using an _incorrect_ example though.... Sorry, mister Reviewer, but am I to take you serious? Did you even read the books?

That Martin revels in such moments is bad enough. That his characters' responses to them are so flat goes far beyond the bounds of credibility. Fantasy setting or not, people are simply not like this. No author who understands human nature so little can have much of interest to say.

Yes, well, it turned out your one example to strengthen this claim, is an incorrect one.

[i]Martin believes that he has single-handedly discovered a major flaw common to almost all other writers: that their major characters inevitably survive to the end (or close to the end) of the production. He does not understand that he is putting the cart before the horse, and so missing the point entirely. Of course other authors have "mortal" characters. However, other authors are simply intelligent enough to realize that the major characters of a work (or a real-life episode) are generally to be found among those who are alive for a significant part of it, and to construct their storytelling accordingly. By repeatedly focusing on characters who shortly thereafter meet their demises, Martin succeeds only in punishing his readers with a series of unproductive false starts.

Erm...yeah...lets see...major characters huh? The first book had 8 POV's. One didn't make it to the end of that book. The second book had the 7 remaining POV's plus 2 new ones. They all made it to the end of the book (though one of the new ones dissappeared from the stage for the time being). The third book started out with the 8 remaining POV's plus 2 new ones. 1 of them didn't make it to the end of the book. So at the end of book 3, after a couple of thousand pages, 6 POV's from the first book are still around, 2 didn't make it and a total of 9 POV's is alive and kicking as we speak (plus that one offstage). At least two more POV's will be joining the feast in the next book.

[i]Martin's writing is similar in many ways to that of another very flawed writer, one whose many faults are more widely recognized: Terry Goodkind. Martin shares Goodkind's penchant for violence and sex, though Martin's versions are even more graphic and unappealing (he does, fortunately, lack Goodkind's particular brand of sappy smarminess). Nevertheless, the comparison ultimately favors Goodkind because he can at least wrap a story up, something Martin, like Robert Jordan, is incapable of doing. Goodkind is under the disadvantage of having published eight books with which to annoy readers, as opposed to Martin's three (in this series).

Don't make me laugh.

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#243 Guest_Reave the Just_*

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Posted 01 December 2004 - 03:43 AM

I only read the first one, so maybe it gets much better, but....

It wasn't the violence that bothered me, but what I felt was poor quality writing. I just wasn't convinced by his setting. Now I;'m no expert (tournaments, heraldry) were superficial to say the least. The world he created seemd paper-thin.

Based on what I've read I'm at a loss to see what the fuss is all about. It isn't even half as good as Malazan BOTF and I don't see why the two series are mentioned in the same breath.
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#244 User is offline   Memnoch 

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Posted 04 May 2004 - 06:56 AM

Slightly off topic, but does anyone know how long it took Michelangelo to paint the roof of the Sistine Chapel? It was a bloody long time, wasn't it. Though I'm sure he was going as fast as he could...
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#245 Guest_Kenryll\'ah_*

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Posted 25 January 2003 - 04:18 PM

lorn i say read martin, so you can formulate your own opinion.
personally i think his writing is good at best, mediocre and tiresome mostly.
to quote (very loosely) the imass in erikson, they thought that if the majority beleived something to be right, then it must be so, and they were wrong.
martin is overrated, though his battle scenes are quite well written.
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#246 User is offline   Lady Atheilen 

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Posted 05 April 2003 - 05:18 PM

What are you doing on the Martin forum then SL?

"All that breaks must be discarded, even as the thunder of faith returns ever fading echoes."-Anomandaris-Fisher Kel'Tath
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#247 Guest_DreamthieF_*

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Posted 20 January 2003 - 08:55 PM

i liked it until the last book ... where i lost interest in how the plot turned out ... i still want to see what happens up in the north though

~ WINTER IS COMING ~

~ may all your dreams but one come true ~
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#248 Guest__*

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Posted 07 November 2002 - 02:22 PM

well, I'm after "Steel and snow" now and I find Jaime Lannister as a really cool character! Jon seems to have a good time too Posted Image
anyway, when I'll finish the school required book I'm reading now, I'll read "Blood and gold"... can't wait...
oh, and my parents finally got a mastercard-compatible credit card... so I'll be ordering from Amazon! YEAH!

------------------
I issue the call: Are you ready to fight?
Fight all together as on for the right
To be free once again
Tonight we will win!
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#249 Guest_Riot_*

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Posted 04 April 2003 - 11:49 PM

Thanks for that Pale Posted Image

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Loveable hound of shadow - just don't pat me....grrrr
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#250 User is offline   Anomander 

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Posted 12 July 2003 - 05:56 PM

@SL, I tried to buy that book too. But the store I was at didn't have it in stock.

And so the First denied their Mother,
in their fury, and so were cast out,
doomed children of Mother Dark.
And so the First denied their Mother,
in their fury, and so were cast out,
doomed children of Mother Dark.
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#251 Guest_Blinky_*

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Posted 01 March 2003 - 10:02 PM

I agree completely with Varys's comments. I was about to make a similar post, but didn't want to drag this down into a slugfest and changed my mind.

Keep in mind the payoff for Martin to have his teaser presented in Dragon, i'm sure, is completely unsubstantial.

You know, i would have been absolutely fine with it if RJ offered something tangible, ie. first priority at book signings coupon, membership, wheel of time pen, etc. Useless to me, but as Varys said..the ebook was released at the diehards.

I'm sorry, i'll admit i/we probably badmouth RJ a little 'overmuchly' and may be slanted against his series now, but his ebook series seems a cash cow...not on general readers, but -loyal RJ readers-.

my two cents(currency exchange rates change the value of my opinion..for example, in the US, it would only be worth 1.5 cents if someone took the time to saw the penn..need sleep..i blabber when i..zzzz)
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#252 Guest_Pale Remnants_*

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Posted 20 February 2003 - 11:00 AM

The latest from Lazybones..

"I continue to make progress on A FEAST FOR CROWS, but more slowly than I would like. In recognition of the fact that the book has not yet been completed or delivered, my publishers both in the US and UK have finally changed the April pubdate to something more realistic... but until such time as I actually deliver the book, any publication date is pure guesswork. "

Yet another delay.2004 is my guess.

a man in the green
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#253 Guest_Kilor_*

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Posted 25 January 2003 - 03:54 PM

Lorn- I did start reading Terry Pratchett again after a gap of a few years because I met him and he was a short, charming (though beared) man, so I gave his books another go.

GRRM? Well his books are good. You obviously like fantasy books 'cos otherwise you wouldn't be on this board, what other reason could you need. Plus his chaacterisation is th best of any fantasy writer, better I would say than Erikson's.

Let us sit upon the ground and tell sad stories of the death of kings.
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#254 User is offline   Paran 

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Posted 30 November 2002 - 11:13 PM

Well, I've read all 3 books now, and have to say that it's not a patch on Erikson. The complexity of the deciet is quite good, but from book to book, the characters just don't go far enough along. Each book is just too incomplete! The characters really don't seem to grow greatly, and the only reason u don't notice that is because the pov's keep switching so often, and each book spends about 100 pg's max on one character.

Well, people are entitled to their opinions, but the fact is that Erikson seems to pack so much into 1 book that the Martin series pales in comparison.
"The harder the world, the fiercer the honour" - Dancer
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#255 Guest_Pale Remnants_*

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Posted 22 January 2003 - 02:21 PM

he looks like the "Hound".
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#256 Guest_Falco_*

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Posted 12 July 2003 - 08:23 PM

Yeah I enjoyed "The Hedge Knight", which is strange considering i hated aSoIaF- also, try his book about vampires in the American South called "Fevre Dream", i reall enjoyed that one too...

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"I am a son who lives without hope of ever matching my father's stride"- L'oric
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#257 Guest_Arakasi_*

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Posted 19 January 2004 - 11:29 AM

All four books autographed? Huh? The fourth book is what everyone is waiting for and it hasn't finished being written yet.

All fled, all done, so lift me on the pyre. The feast is over, the lamps expire.
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#258 User is offline   Fist Gamet 

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Posted 15 March 2003 - 04:34 PM

Posted ImageMOI had not only a siege, but THE siege! And any book with Itkovian has to be pretty darned good.

Oh, and Vovin, I actually prefer GRRM overall to Erikson (is this blasphemy?) but only by the width of one hair of Hood's Balls.

And of course, there is Tool...
But then, we have the Lannister Dwarf...

"Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools."
Victory is mine!
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#259 Guest_Dark Daze_*

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Posted 21 March 2004 - 01:38 AM

That's part of why it takes Martin longer to write. Maybe he has a life outside of writing...after reading about his toy soldier collection on his website, I doubt it, but maybe...
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#260 Guest__*

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Posted 02 December 2002 - 03:22 AM

Spoiler


Tyrion heads east and ends up in Bravos where he meets that fat guy Illyrio? and he suggests going to meet Danerys. Arya ends up in a temple to the many faced god and is gonna become an assassin.
these are all from sample chapters GRRM read out at conferences.
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