[QuickTidal]

Cause, on 24 March 2023 - 02:24 PM, said:

Primateus, on 24 March 2023 - 09:04 AM, said:

There is also a belief that the TikTok algorithm is different in the west than in China. Meaning that in the west it will filter meaningless garbage to the users, providing little to none actually educational content, while the reverse is true in China.

I always find this one funny, because the goverment can pass any laws they want to govern children safety standards, education requirements, screen-time limits etc.

Im not a legal expert but there must be a way around the first ammendment on this because the USA already has an age rating system in place for video games and movies.

So if you think the youth are being dumbed down act on it

My fave part of the whole thing was when the (I think 'D') lady put her foot in her mouth by asking about if he (Chew) would want his 8 year old to see some of the more mature stuff on Tiktok, and he was like "my wife and kids are in Singapore, and you're not allowed to be on social media there under the age of 13" and she had no idea how to reply because in America it's a free for all for all ages...she may as well have painted a big finger directly back at herself for the fact that kids in America can access social media of any kind so easily. FFS, Twitter (which again, is monitored and often censored by the FBI) has actual porn/violence/other stuff on it that you only need to have an account to see, and is not behind any other wall to prevent them....but yeah let's worry about TikTok (which doesn't allow that at all) shall we?

These people could not be more transparent that it's not about what they claim it's about if they tried.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Quote

"What kind of person can charge another person [...] when it is known by all that NO Crime has been committed, & also known that potential death & destruction in such a false charge could be catastrophic for our Country?" [...]

"Why & who would do such a thing?" [...] "Only a degenerate psychopath that truely hates the USA!"

Trump says there could be 'death & destruction' if he's indicted in New York

... which he apparently posted at 1 AM on Truth Social... IDK if other social media will ban him for inciting violence on Truth Social, or if he's trying to avoid the political fallout from more explicit calls, or potential criminal liability for explicit calls for imminent violence; but he's been edging closer and closer....

He's holding a rally in Waco, Texas tomorrow, where

Quote

a fiery federal raid on a doomsday sect turned the city into a symbol of government overreach. [...] some [Trump] supporters — and critics — say it's no accident.


In the chapel at Mount Carmel, the longtime home of the Branch Davidian sect outside Waco, Tex., the pastor preaches about the coming apocalypse, as the sect's doomed charismatic leader David Koresh did [...]

But the prophecies offered by the pastor[...] are different from Mr. Koresh's. For one thing, they involve Donald J. Trump.

"Donald Trump is the anointed of God," [...] "He is the battering ram that God is using to bring down the Deep State of Babylon."

[...] The date falls in the middle of the 30th anniversary of the weekslong standoff involving federal agents and followers of Mr. Koresh [...]

"Waco was an overreach of the government, and today the New York district attorney is practicing an overreach of the government again," [...]

It has remained a cause for contemporary far-right groups like the Oath Keepers and the Proud Boys.

Trump Plans Rally in Waco During Anniversary of Branch Davidian Standoff

[Gothos]

QuickTidal, on 24 March 2023 - 01:10 PM, said:

Pulling up a decent YT video for a recipe (as an example) takes time and effort I don't need on something like Tiktok where I can just search a term and then scroll until I find one I like, or go to one of the chefs I follow and learn something. That's just one example. It's ease of access for me, 1000%. It also suffers none of the ads you have to deal with on YT.

Do I still get recipes from other places online? Sure, my recipe keeper app likes links...but I've made many a dish from TikTok and enjoyed it.

Might be the lack of comparison, but I never associated youtube search with time and effort. To each his own, I guess.

Gothos, on 24 March 2023 - 12:25 PM, said:

Nah, I'm not standing up for any govt here, can't stand the CCP...it's just wildly amusing to me that a social media app that lets us plebs not only talk to each other, but share shit you can't find through heavily lobbied and regulated media sources, is so scary to those govt entities. Hell, the protests in Paris have been laser organized on TikTok VS the other social media. There's a reason for that.

Interesting (no sarcasm). What is it?

Quote

Whether I think a corporation OR a govt has my best interests at heart? I do not....but more do I care? I also do not.

I pretend I do, but when it comes to convenience, I often take shortcuts... but I have a nagging feeling that maybe we should care about this more. Sometimes I feel like a kid that keeps getting sweets to shut up.

Quote

I'm amazed that it's been proven that the FBI filters and censors something local like Twitter...but somehow everyone is okay with that....but yeah a company like TikTok that is run by a Singaporean (with a Taiwanese wife...the fact of this should not be lost on anyone who knows about the CCP) is somehow in bed with the CCP enough for me to care about my data.

I don't want to take sides here, I don't know nearly enough about the subject of TikTok for my opinion to matter (other than I think it's a shit app with shit content, but that's personal), but... I wouldn't be surprised if a billionaire businessman had close dealings with the regional superpower regardless of nationalities.

Quote

Like we either regulate ALL these companies, or none of them. This is why it will never happen...the US lawmakers don't WANT FB, Twitter, and Insta to go away...but they would need to if the ban hammer was welded at TikTok....this shit is all about the soundbites the lawmakers can use to foist shit onto their followers from...ding ding sing...their social media accounts.

It would be interesting to see if the US would go, ironically, the CCP way, and ban it in particular without overall legislation... and how the various corners of the public would react. I have popcorn ready to go just in case

[QuickTidal]

Gothos, on 24 March 2023 - 03:48 PM, said:

Interesting (no sarcasm). What is it?

Because nothing is stifled on TikTok, it's video that's easy to upload and parse and filled with people talking. When Iran was having it's uprising over that woman's death, the ONLY place you could find videos of the actual fight, was on TikTok.

Gothos, on 24 March 2023 - 03:48 PM, said:

but I have a nagging feeling that maybe we should care about this more.

It's Red Scare bullshit all over again. Just with a new Other to swing accusations at.

Gothos, on 24 March 2023 - 03:48 PM, said:

I don't want to take sides here, I don't know nearly enough about the subject of TikTok for my opinion to matter (other than I think it's a shit app with shit content, but that's personal), but... I wouldn't be surprised if a billionaire businessman had close dealings with the regional superpower regardless of nationalities.

If we want to talk about that, then all those social media companies and their third party vendors sell your data to the Chinese (and others) anyways. Anyone who believes otherwise is willfully ignoring the elephant in the room. At no point am I'm going to believe that massive corporations that run social media are not in cahoots with one another on a macro level and in the US they just ignore the ones that help them stay in power or please their donors. If you took Truth Social (for example) to task for the same "security risks"....you would watch every single Republican lawmakers fall all over themselves to defend it...it's ALL theatre. No one has anyone's bets interests at heart. We live at the epicentre of Oligarchy capitalist hell.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

I signed up for tickets to the Trump rally in Waco:

Quote

Donald has a rally in Waco this Saturday. It's a ploy to remind his cult of the infamous Waco siege of 1993, where an anti-government cult battled the FBI. Scores of people died. He wants the same violent chaos to rescue him from justice.

[...] If we book the 50,000+ venue, we can make sure most of the seats are empty when the traitor takes the stage.

[...] Hit the link below—each mobile number can register up to two tickets per event, for free. It may not seem like a big deal, but everybody who does this will make a difference.

(1) Mary L Trump on Twitter: "Donald has a rally in Waco this Saturday. It's a ploy to remind his cult of the infamous Waco siege of 1993, where an anti-government cult battled the FBI. Scores of people died. He wants the same violent chaos to rescue him from justice. But we can stop him. If we book the… https://t.co/a5zCIfCVAZ" / Twitter

Link for tickets:

https://t.co/3tGSfan5iw

[Tsundoku]

While I think that's a funny/cute idea, I'm also reminded of the fact I don't like it when any side tries to "shout down" the other, or deprive them of their opportunity to reveal just how much a bunch of deadshits they are to a wider audience. Kinda conflicted really.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Tsundoku, on 24 March 2023 - 09:03 PM, said:

While I think that's a funny/cute idea, I'm also reminded of the fact I don't like it when any side tries to "shout down" the other, or deprive them of their opportunity to reveal just how much a bunch of deadshits they are to a wider audience. Kinda conflicted really.

Looks like it's going to be televised, so it won't be significantly restricting the potential audience:

Quote

Trump Gains Access to Millions of Cable Viewers Ahead of [Waco] Rally

[...] Newsmax announced that its programming would come back to DirecTV—and the cable carrier's streaming services[...] deal was reached for multiyear distribution.

Newsmax is one of the few cable networks that still broadcast all of Trump's rallies.

Trump Gains Access to Millions of Cable Viewers Ahead of Rally

Getting tickets is more about crowd size as one of Trump's favorite measures of support. Of course he'll lie about it anyway. And the Newsmax cameras will try to avoid showing a mostly empty stadium....

Meanwhile on 'Truth Social' Trump's kept escalating:

Quote

Trump posts picture of himself wielding baseball bat next to [Manhattan DA] Alvin Bragg's head

"This threat is obstruction of justice and is a dangerous call to violence. Everyone needs to speak out," [...]

"Trump has today issued repeated stochastic terrorist calls for his cult to "remove" the "animal" Alvin Bragg - and use a baseball bat," [...]

"He's trying to get this man killed. Period. Enough."

Trump posts picture of himself wielding baseball bat next to Alvin Bragg's head

Terrorists are already acting against Bragg:

Quote

White powder discovered in Manhattan DA's office after Trump's violent Truth Social posts

[...] envelope was reportedly marked "Alvin" and was opened in the mailroom [...] contents were non-hazardous

White substance and death threat discovered at Manhattan DA's office after Trump's violent Truth Social posts

... what a 'coincidence'....

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 24 March 2023 - 09:58 PM

[Tiste Simeon]

Tsundoku, on 24 March 2023 - 09:03 PM, said:

While I think that's a funny/cute idea, I'm also reminded of the fact I don't like it when any side tries to "shout down" the other, or deprive them of their opportunity to reveal just how much a bunch of deadshits they are to a wider audience. Kinda conflicted really.

I don't think the idea is to shout anyone down I think the idea is to buy all the tickets then not show up. The narcissistic idiot will be raging if that happens, and we know this because it's happened many times already hah.

Also I'm not sure "both sides are the same" is valid any more. Some people need to be shouted down.

[Gothos]

QuickTidal, on 24 March 2023 - 04:05 PM, said:

Because nothing is stifled on TikTok, it's video that's easy to upload and parse and filled with people talking. When Iran was having it's uprising over that woman's death, the ONLY place you could find videos of the actual fight, was on TikTok.

Well enough. As long as it can actually stay impartial, that's great.

Quote

It's Red Scare bullshit all over again. Just with a new Other to swing accusations at.

What is, TikTok specifically or data collection in general?

Quote

If we want to talk about that, then all those social media companies and their third party vendors sell your data to the Chinese (and others) anyways. Anyone who believes otherwise is willfully ignoring the elephant in the room. At no point am I'm going to believe that massive corporations that run social media are not in cahoots with one another on a macro level and in the US they just ignore the ones that help them stay in power or please their donors. If you took Truth Social (for example) to task for the same "security risks"....you would watch every single Republican lawmakers fall all over themselves to defend it...it's ALL theatre. No one has anyone's bets interests at heart. We live at the epicentre of Oligarchy capitalist hell.

I wouldn't equate corruption, tyranny and exploitation of the working class with capitalism, especially in the modern day. I've never understood the self-flagellation the western world seems to delight in.

Tiste Simeon, on 24 March 2023 - 10:10 PM, said:

I don't think the idea is to shout anyone down I think the idea is to buy all the tickets then not show up. The narcissistic idiot will be raging if that happens, and we know this because it's happened many times already hah.

This would be such a nice way to make a quick buck if they weren't free. Are they free?

Quote

Also I'm not sure "both sides are the same" is valid any more. Some people need to be shouted down.

I don't think what Sombra says can be summed up as "both sides are the same" at all tbh. Btw stop ignoring me

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Gothos, on 24 March 2023 - 11:00 PM, said:

Tiste Simeon, on 24 March 2023 - 10:10 PM, said:

I don't think the idea is to shout anyone down I think the idea is to buy all the tickets then not show up. The narcissistic idiot will be raging if that happens, and we know this because it's happened many times already hah.

This would be such a nice way to make a quick buck if they weren't free. Are they free?

Yes, they're free. And I'm pretty sure people outside the United States can get them too.

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 24 March 2023 - 11:22 PM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Apparently TikTok helped Biden get elected, so I thought banning TikTok would hurt Biden's 2024 presidential run. (Biden supports banning it.) Maybe not as much I thought (though it's difficult to imagine TikTok not harming Trump more than Biden):

Quote

Gen-Z TikTok is Furious With Biden—and It's Not About [His Support for Banning] the Platform


[...] after [Biden] gave the Willow Project the green light.

[...] hatred for not only Biden but the government at large. A common format on the platform is to display the rejoinder "Mom, what's a polar bear?" along with a description of the havoc Biden is wreaking. [...] "i don't understand how they think they will get the youth vote in 2024 that got them elected in 2020." "POV: The project of the president's is to kill the earth."

[...] taking Biden to task for backtracking on his campaign promise to halt federal land leases to fossil fuel companies [...]

Whether Biden is fully to blame for furthering the destruction of the climate is, well, nuanced. ConocoPhillips had claims to the relevant acres for decades, a situation that couldn't wholly be reversed through existing guidelines. [...]

That might not matter much to TikTok's primary demographic—which features many enthusiastic voters. Climate change is a consistent electoral priority for Gen Z; the fact that executive action is the strongest means by which the president can preserve wildlife habitats and ecosystems adds extra scrutiny to Biden's environmental moves. And when the youths can see and discuss for themselves unimaginable disasters like Pakistan's floods, Puerto Rico's repeated hurricanes, the Colorado River's water shortages, and New York's rampant snowstorms, it's more than understandable why they would expect much, much more—considering these terrors will only worsen if nothing is done.

The teens and twentysomethings readying themselves for an uncertain environmental future have also witnessed [long list of terrible things ...] and, most frustratingly, insufficient responses to these developments from a president they helped elect

Willow oil project: Gen Z TikTok is furious at Biden for the Alaska drilling

Personally... as an investor in Meta and Alphabet, but not Bytedance (TikTok's parent company), I stand to gain a bit from the ban. To the extent the US legislature is influenced by their stock holdings, Bytedance may have made a mistake by not going public. It's widely believed that TikTok's CEO is a puppet; its parent company's ties to the Chinese government are well-established, and there's a Chinese law that would allow the Chinese government to access data from TikTok. The Chinese government has also indicated it will attempt to block sale to a US company because they don't want to 'export technology' to the US. (Wonder whether the Chinese government could have been doing secret 'unethical' psychological research to arrive at a better algorithm? Probably not, though in principle the most effective ways to really understand human psychology and biology (unless we can ever do really accurate simulations of whole humans and environments---which is probably a long ways off, unless there's a way to effectively apply quantum computing or some other non-classical computational methods) may be 'unethical' and so restricted to those who can get away with them, most likely in authoritarian (or easily bribed) regimes that still value science and technology.) Overall though, since many other apps also collect data, it seems like part of Biden's war on the Chinese tech sector. From the standpoint of progress (obviously I speak for Progress Incarnate TM), it seems like a major mistake. Science and technology will advance faster if the US and China cooperate. OTOH:

Quote

[Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company produces] a staggering 92 percent of the world's most avant-garde chips—the ones inside the nuclear weapons, planes, submarines, and hypersonic missiles on which the international balance of hard power is predicated.
[...]

TSMC's success is built on its singular comprehension of this dispersion of providential gifts. The firm is merrily known as "pure play," meaning all it does is produce bespoke chips for customer companies. These include fabless semiconductor firms like Marvell, AMD, MediaTek, and Broadcom, and fabless consumer-electronics firms like Apple and Nvidia. In turn, TSMC relies on the gifts of other countries. Companies like Sumco, in Japan, process polycrystalline silicon sand, which is quarried for the world's semiconductor companies in places like Brazil, France, and the Appalachian Mountains in the US, to grow hot single-crystal silicon ingots. With diamond wire saws, Sumco's machines slice shimmering wafers that, polished so smooth they feel like nothing under a fingertip, are the flattest objects in the world. From these wafers, which are up to a foot in diameter, TSMC's automated machines, many of which are built by the Dutch photolithography firm ASML, etch billions of transistors onto each chip-sized portion; the biggest wafers yield hundreds of chips. Each transistor is about 1,000 times smaller than is visible to the naked eye.

I've thus come to see TSMC as [...] a tribute to Savary's largely expired romance in which liberal democracy, international commerce, and progress in science and art are of a piece, both healthful and unstoppable. More practically, however, the company, with its near monopoly on the best chips, serves as the umbo of the region's so-called Silicon Shield, which is perhaps the sturdiest artifact of 20th-century realpolitik. For an imperial power to seize TSMC, the logic goes, would be to slay the world's goldenest goose.

[...] were TSMC chips to vanish from this earth, every new iPad, iPhone, and Mac would be instantly bricked. TSMC's simultaneous invisibility and indispensability to the human race is something [...] the CEO of Nvidia, likes to joke about. "Basically, there is air—and TSMC,"

[...]

TSMC's chairman[...]: "Nobody can control TSMC by force. If you take by military force, or invasion, you will render TSMC inoperative." If a totalitarian regime forcibly occupied TSMC, in other words, its kaiser would never get its partner democracies on the phone. The relevant material suppliers, chip designers, software engineers, 5G networks, augmented-reality services, artificial-intelligence operators, and product manufacturers would block their calls. The fabs themselves would be bricked.

I Saw the Face of God in a TSMC Semiconductor Factory

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 25 March 2023 - 12:59 PM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Quote

TikTok is part of China's cognitive warfare campaign

[...] Chinese military reports suggest that warfare is shifting from destroying bodies to paralyzing and controlling the opponent's mind. Making the Biden administration's call for TikTok's Chinese owners to sell their stakes in the app or face a US ban just the start of a protracted Whac-A-Mole game in a broader strategy to combat cognitive warfare – with the human mind as the battlefield.

[...] includes China's influence campaigns on TikTok, a mass collection of personal and biometric data from American citizens and their race to develop weapons that could one day directly assault or disable human minds. [...]

The US government has blacklisted Chinese institutes and firms it believes to be working on dangerous "biotechnology processes to support Chinese military end uses", including "purported brain-control weaponry". The Chinese People's Liberation army (PLA) is investing heavily in cognitive domain operations, including AI research in brain-inspired software, hardware and decision making.

[...]

Platforms like TikTok exemplify cognitive influence by shaping the beliefs and preferences of its vast user base while collecting data and developing psychogenic profiles of its users. TikTok's algorithm has the power to mold public opinion and exploit user data to shape preferences, biases and beliefs. [...] After a talk I gave at the World Economic Forum in Davos, TikTok influencers took a portion of the talk out of context and amplified it on the platform. The videos received millions of views. My own attempt on the platform to combat the misinformation received a tiny fraction of views, as did attempts by the very same influencers whose videos went viral. It appears easier to defame someone shedding light on authoritarian practices than to amplify their message about the already chilling misuse of neurotechnology by the regime.

Foreign biometric data collection on Americans is increasing, with users unwittingly providing facial recognition data through TikTok's filters and games.

TikTok is part of China's cognitive warfare campaign | Nita Farahany | The Guardian

China has a vested interest in highlighting the failure of democratic and capitalist systems to address climate change. Democracy and capitalism have generally been promoting short-term focused thinking, while Chinese leaders have been focused on the long term.

If China can harness TikTok and other technologies for effective 'mind control' to undermine 'dumbocrazy' worldwide, they just might be able to force action on climate change in time to save civilization. (Well... Chinese civilization, at least.)

Quote

The disciples of Confucius recorded that “the master was wishing to go and live among the nine wild tribes of the east子欲居九夷.” When asked “they are barbarian areas. How can you do such a thing?” Confucius answered, “If a virtuous man dwelt among them, what barbarian would there be?”(Analects 9.14)

Confucius as a Cosmopolitan: Thought and Practice (georgetown.edu)

#Team天网

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 25 March 2023 - 04:44 PM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Quote

Florida, a state that bills itself as the home of the ornery and the resistant, [...] the libertarian and the government-skeptic, has fallen for the most keenly authoritarian governor in the United States.

[...] In Florida, no one wants to hear about the costs or the consequences. Why else would people keep rebuilding fragile beachfront homes in a hurricane zone—and expect the government to offer them insurance? [...]

“This is an irresponsible place,” [...]

“You ever read The Iliad and The Odyssey?” [...]

“So there was one of the chapters where the ship is going by the Sirens, calling the sailors off[...] I think Ron DeSantis is like a siren call to all of these suburban Republicans living in these blue states.”

Right, but weren’t the sirens luring people … to their death?

Pedicini was unperturbed. “[...] I lost my mother during the pandemic to COVID. My mother chose not to get a shot[...] Do I blame it on the governor? Absolutely not. [...] the government didn’t have the right to make that choice.”

[...] DeSantis spent a year teaching [...] DeSantis once dared a student who had been boasting about how much milk he could drink to prove it. The student threw up in front of his classmates.

[...] One former Guantánamo prisoner, Mansoor Adayfi, has accused DeSantis of laughing as he was force-fed; Adayfi says he threw up in the young lawyer’s face. “I was screaming,” [...] “I looked at him, and he was actually smiling. Like someone who was enjoying it.” Adayfi was released [...] after being detained without charge for 14 years, and the United Nations Commission on Human Rights later classified this force-feeding as torture.

How Freedom-Loving Florida Fell for Ron DeSantis

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Quote

Trump Asks Advisers for ‘Battle Plans’ to ‘Attack Mexico’ if Reelected

[...] Trump has been asking policy advisers for a range of military options aimed at taking on Mexican drug cartels, including strikes that are not sanctioned by Mexico’s government.

[...] white paper from the Center for Renewing America [...]

[...] outlines possible justifications and procedures for the next Republican commander-in-chief to “formally” declare “war against the cartels,” [...]

[...] “The goal is to crush cartel networks with full military force in as rapid a fashion as possible. [...] Marines, Army, Navy, Air Force and Coast Guard,”

[...] a range of GOP lawmakers and figures are proposing legislation aimed at unleashing the U.S. military on Mexico, suggesting that if a Republican wins in 2024, the new president will have ample support — and even possibly face party pressure

Trump Asks Advisers for ‘Battle Plans’ to ‘Attack Mexico’ if Reelected

Suppose they really manage to destroy most of the drug labs and largely drive the cartels out of the country (both very unlikely). What's to stop them from coming back? Permanent war? Occupation of Mexico (... 'and while we're at it, why don't we have the military stop illegal immigration too?')?

[QuickTidal]

Azath Vitr (D, on 30 March 2023 - 11:53 AM, said:

Quote

Trump Asks Advisers for ‘Battle Plans’ to ‘Attack Mexico’ if Reelected

[...] Trump has been asking policy advisers for a range of military options aimed at taking on Mexican drug cartels, including strikes that are not sanctioned by Mexico’s government.

[...] white paper from the Center for Renewing America [...]

[...] outlines possible justifications and procedures for the next Republican commander-in-chief to “formally” declare “war against the cartels,” [...]

[...] “The goal is to crush cartel networks with full military force in as rapid a fashion as possible. [...] Marines, Army, Navy, Air Force and Coast Guard,”

[...] a range of GOP lawmakers and figures are proposing legislation aimed at unleashing the U.S. military on Mexico, suggesting that if a Republican wins in 2024, the new president will have ample support — and even possibly face party pressure

Trump Asks Advisers for ‘Battle Plans’ to ‘Attack Mexico’ if Reelected

Suppose they really manage to destroy most of the drug labs and largely drive the cartels out of the country (both very unlikely). What's to stop them from coming back? Permanent war? Occupation of Mexico (... 'and while we're at it, why don't we have the military stop illegal immigration too?')?

I would start with "unsanctioned military strikes in a neighbouring ALLY country" is so wildly against international law that it would never stand in the global community, and go from there. Like at no point is any military commander following batshit orders from an insane president who says to illegally invade an ally that it shares a land border with.

Amusingly if the US really WANTED to help Mexico deal with its Cartel problem, there are far more diplomatic and ally relational ways of assisting them in doing that. Hell, just last year they caught the head of the Guadalajara/Sinaloa Cartel leader Rafael Caro Quintero in a joint-effort between the DEA/Mexican authorities where Merrick Garland expressed a lot of thanks that they caught him and will be extraditing him to then US for trial/imprisonment.

But yeah, you're likely right that the cartels won't be stopped by cutting their "heads" out of the equation. Another person will simply rise in their place. Hell, the guy who started the Guadalajara Cartel was a damned COP before taking up the trade...the notion of a cushy rich life in Mexico is just too shiny a proposition for many citizens there to ignore. The World Bank classifies Mexico as an upper-middle-income country. However, the country is characterized by vast social disparities. More than 40 per cent of the people live in poverty. so yeah, there will always be a new head to the Cartel who will take up the slack when people like Quintero gets arrested.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

QuickTidal, on 30 March 2023 - 12:47 PM, said:

Azath Vitr (D, on 30 March 2023 - 11:53 AM, said:

Quote

Trump Asks Advisers for 'Battle Plans' to 'Attack Mexico' if Reelected

[...] Trump has been asking policy advisers for a range of military options aimed at taking on Mexican drug cartels, including strikes that are not sanctioned by Mexico's government.

[...] white paper from the Center for Renewing America [...]

[...] outlines possible justifications and procedures for the next Republican commander-in-chief to "formally" declare "war against the cartels," [...]

[...] "The goal is to crush cartel networks with full military force in as rapid a fashion as possible. [...] Marines, Army, Navy, Air Force and Coast Guard,"

[...] a range of GOP lawmakers and figures are proposing legislation aimed at unleashing the U.S. military on Mexico, suggesting that if a Republican wins in 2024, the new president will have ample support — and even possibly face party pressure

Trump Asks Advisers for 'Battle Plans' to 'Attack Mexico' if Reelected

Suppose they really manage to destroy most of the drug labs and largely drive the cartels out of the country (both very unlikely). What's to stop them from coming back? Permanent war? Occupation of Mexico (... 'and while we're at it, why don't we have the military stop illegal immigration too?')?

I would start with "unsanctioned military strikes in a neighbouring ALLY country" is so wildly against international law that it would never stand in the global community, and go from there. Like at no point is any military commander following batshit orders from an insane president who says to illegally invade an ally that it shares a land border with.

Amusingly if the US really WANTED to help Mexico deal with its Cartel problem, there are far more diplomatic and ally relational ways of assisting them in doing that. Hell, just last year they caught the head of the Guadalajara/Sinaloa Cartel leader Rafael Caro Quintero in a joint-effort between the DEA/Mexican authorities where Merrick Garland expressed a lot of thanks that they caught him and will be extraditing him to then US for trial/imprisonment.

But yeah, you're likely right that the cartels won't be stopped by cutting their "heads" out of the equation. Another person will simply rise in their place. Hell, the guy who started the Guadalajara Cartel was a damned COP before taking up the trade...the notion of a cushy rich life in Mexico is just too shiny a proposition for many citizens there to ignore. The World Bank classifies Mexico as an upper-middle-income country. However, the country is characterized by vast social disparities. More than 40 per cent of the people live in poverty. so yeah, there will always be a new head to the Cartel who will take up the slack when people like Quintero gets arrested.

It's not just Trump, it's the Republicans in Congress.

Trump would almost certainly be able to find military commanders willing to along with it. With the support of Congress (assuming Republicans scrap the filibuster for this) he'd be able to dismiss noncompliant officers and appoint new generals.

(The US president can dismiss officers in 'time of war', which is a legally ambiguous term that probably doesn't require a congressional declaration of war:

Can Presidents ‘fire’ senior military officers? Generally, yes…but it’s complicated – Lawfire (duke.edu)

So Trump's Supreme Court would probably grant him unliteral power to dismiss military officers based on his own assessment of whether we're 'in time of war'.)

Though if US military intervention were limited by the consent of the Mexican government, that might not be a terrible idea---particularly in areas where the Mexican police have been outgunned by militarized cartels.

As for destroying the drug labs and stopping the flow of drugs... even if the labs left Mexico, they'd just go somewhere else---maybe south of the Mexican border. So are we going to do the rest of Central and South America next?... And then Canada just to be thorough....

[QuickTidal]

Azath Vitr (D, on 30 March 2023 - 02:07 PM, said:

As for destroying the drug labs and stopping the flow of drugs... even if the labs left Mexico, they'd just go somewhere else---maybe south of the Mexican border. So are we going to do the rest of Central and South America next?... And then Canada just to be thorough....

The roots of the Mexican Cartels are already in the countries they originated in like Nicaragua, Venezuela, Columbia ect., so they would just drop back to those places where there infrastructure already exists.

The ship sailed on the US EVER getting a real handle on the Drug trade at large way back when Ollie North and the CIA worked with the Contras.

[worry]

Here's an alternative: end the war on drugs, completely and permanently.

[Macros]

But where will the CIA get its dirty money?

[QuickTidal]

Macros, on 30 March 2023 - 03:54 PM, said:

But where will the CIA get its dirty money?

This. It's not going to stop. It serves the US govt at too many angles to let this river of drugs dry up.