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The USA politics thread - The other political idiocy - This is Democracy?

#13521 User is offline   Azath Vitr (D'ivers 

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Posted 07 May 2021 - 08:03 PM

View PostPrimateus, on 07 May 2021 - 06:04 PM, said:

So uh, South Carolina and firesquads, huh?

Yeah, there's no way that can possibly go wrong, right?


Fire squad would be at least a bit more terrible than firing squad.

Especially if it's hot out....

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 07 May 2021 - 08:04 PM

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#13522 User is offline   amphibian 

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Posted 08 May 2021 - 02:06 AM

View PostAptorian, on 07 May 2021 - 07:44 PM, said:

I'd definitely prefer a firing squad to the electric chair. Preferably all the riffles would have live ammo. Also they'd be firing at full auto while I shout Scarface quotes at them.

How about no death penalty at all? Maybe even a maximum sentence that's like 30 years. A truly rehabilitative system?
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#13523 User is offline   Azath Vitr (D'ivers 

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Posted 08 May 2021 - 02:41 AM

View Postamphibian, on 08 May 2021 - 02:06 AM, said:

View PostAptorian, on 07 May 2021 - 07:44 PM, said:

I'd definitely prefer a firing squad to the electric chair. Preferably all the riffles would have live ammo. Also they'd be firing at full auto while I shout Scarface quotes at them.

How about no death penalty at all? Maybe even a maximum sentence that's like 30 years. A truly rehabilitative system?


Maybe those South Carolina legislators were inspired by this:

'Four Years After Arkansas Executed Ledell Lee, DNA Points to Someone Else

New testing suggests a hasty death penalty case killed the wrong person.'

https://slate.com/ne...ll-lee-dna.html

Posted Image

'amid a lack of lethal-injection drugs - a measure meant to jump-start executions in a state that once had one of the busiest death chambers in the nation. [...]

[...] will require condemned inmates to choose either being shot or electrocuted if lethal injection drugs aren't available. The state is one of only nine to still use the electric chair and will become only the fourth to allow a firing squad.

[...]

South Carolina can't put anyone to death now because its supply of lethal-injection drugs expired and it has not been able to buy any more. Currently, inmates can choose between the electric chair and lethal injection. Since the drugs are not available, they choose injection.'

'South Carolina last executed a death row inmate 10 years ago'

https://abc7.com/sou...tives/10589303/

[Edit: Of course it was also a Trump thing:

'Trump Is Racing to Bring Back Firing-Squad Executions Before He Leaves Office'

https://www.thedaily...ice-says-report

'Trump plan to revive the gallows, electric chair, gas chamber and firing squad'

https://theconversat...-history-151358
]

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 08 May 2021 - 02:57 AM

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#13524 User is offline   Malankazooie 

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 05:36 PM

Today is the day, yeah? I don't know what the latest is. Is Cheney voted out and that trump-a-dumper fruit loop in? 100% party of Trump now, yeah?
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#13525 User is offline   Slow Ben 

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 10:01 PM

Yep, voted out.

She should have just paid for sex with underage girls, then no one in her party would have cared.
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#13526 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 13 May 2021 - 08:28 AM

View Postamphibian, on 08 May 2021 - 02:06 AM, said:

View PostAptorian, on 07 May 2021 - 07:44 PM, said:

I'd definitely prefer a firing squad to the electric chair. Preferably all the riffles would have live ammo. Also they'd be firing at full auto while I shout Scarface quotes at them.

How about no death penalty at all? Maybe even a maximum sentence that's like 30 years. A truly rehabilitative system?


I'm pro death penalty despite also being pro shorter sentences with more focus on rehabilitation and therapy.

I don't think any prison sentence should be longer than ten years. That's plenty of time for a person to grow and change and perhaps make amends. You can evaluate the person at the end of that sentence and decide if they're safe to let out into the world again. As a society we have a responsibility to try and help these kinds of people.

However there are also broken people out there who once they're discovered and are caught, can never be let out into society again. There are repeat offenders who rape and kill and terrorize. Organized criminals. Gang members. These types of people you could give the death penalty and I wouldn't cry a single tear for them.

Better yet make it optional. Anybody given a sentence over one year of mandatory incarceration, offer them to take the death penalty instead. Offer them all the chances to better themselves but at any time they're allowed to opt out.

I think a lot of people looking at long prison sentences, an estranged social circle and no life or career once they get out again, would consider the offer.

Edit: There is of course a big difference between the justice system and prison system, exit programs, etc. of various countries. I could easily see an American prison system damn near paying people to kill themselves.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 13 May 2021 - 10:59 AM

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#13527 User is offline   Gorefest 

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Posted 13 May 2021 - 12:29 PM

The only theoretical justification for institutional death penalties in my view would be if you have a guaranteed failsafe justice system with all convictions without reasonable doubt, which is impossible. But even in that theoretical scenario I would be against the death penalty. The fundamental problem with the death penalty is that as a society you unequivocally and utterly give away the ethical and moral highground, plus you adopt the premise that certain human beings are fundamentally beyond help and hope. It is a terrible and bleak world view and creates a rotten core to society which will trickle through in all sorts of ethical considerations and decisions.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 13 May 2021 - 12:30 PM

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#13528 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 13 May 2021 - 12:50 PM

I can definitely see ways in which this would be abused. You just know certain hard liners and fiscal conservatives would make people wish for death rather than being in prison. Thing is in some countries, some institutions, that's already the case.

I also think Western society spends a lot of time fooling itself. Talking about the sanctity of life, saying everyone deserves a second chance, etc. When in reality some people are just irredeemable. And society will not be giving some of these people second chances.
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#13529 User is online   Cause 

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Posted 13 May 2021 - 02:14 PM

An interesting statistic to me a that death penalty punishments cost more than life imprisonment. To me that simple fact makes life imprisonment the preferable way to deal with offenders so dangerous they can never be allowed to mix with the public. Here I am thinking about serial offenders. Serial killers, serial rapists etc. if someone is not a theoretical threat for life, a life sentence doesnít make sense.

Prison is about two things in my mind, a chance for rehabilitation and a way to protect the broader public. The punishment aspect to me doesnít seem that .
important. I believe evidence shows itís not much of a deterrent.

That said itís complicated and we need to speak on a case by case basis. Jail terms for marijuana for example are crazy. Whereas (I may be wrong here) I have been led to believe that evidence suggests pedophiles canít be rehabilitate. If thatís the case they should stain in jail for life. Releasing them only to put them in a sex offenders registry for life is to mind ridiculous. They are either rehabilitations and safe, or not in whcih case they are still a danger and shouldnít have been released.

Similarly how some states in America take away felons rights
To vote for life for example. You have to give people a chance to earn their life back otherwise why reform?

Random thought: Iíd have to do more research if I was actually on death row, but firing squad is probably more humane than lethal injection or electric chair. Iíd probably choose it. Though I donít think itís healthy to make prison guards act as a firing squad.
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#13530 User is offline   Azath Vitr (D'ivers 

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Posted 13 May 2021 - 02:23 PM

View PostAptorian, on 13 May 2021 - 08:28 AM, said:

However there are also broken people out there who once they're discovered and are caught, can never be let out into society again. There are repeat offenders who rape and kill and terrorize. Organized criminals. Gang members. These types of people you could give the death penalty and I wouldn't cry a single tear for them.


It seems like a waste. If they're going to be killed, they should be given to science. Sure, 'cruel and unusual punishments' aren't permitted by US law, though if they're drugged or rendered unable to think, etc. it wouldn't necessarily be 'cruel' in the sense of causing more suffering than they'd otherwise experience on death row.

Quote

Better yet make it optional. Anybody given a sentence over one year of mandatory incarceration, offer them to take the death penalty instead. Offer them all the chances to better themselves but at any time they're allowed to opt out.

I think a lot of people looking at long prison sentences, an estranged social circle and no life or career once they get out again, would consider the offer.


Not sure about this but the prison system does seem to go out of its way to prevent inmates from killing themselves, as if suicide could never be a rational or ethically acceptable choice. I imagine that if death by heroin overdose (or similar pleasure drugs) were an option many inmates would choose it, though that might entice addicts who could still turn their lives around....
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#13531 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 13 May 2021 - 03:29 PM

View PostCause, on 13 May 2021 - 02:14 PM, said:

Random thought: Iíd have to do more research if I was actually on death row, but firing squad is probably more humane than lethal injection or electric chair. Iíd probably choose it. Though I donít think itís healthy to make prison guards act as a firing squad.


I believe some firing squads are mainly loaded with blanks for this reason. That way nobody knows who fired the killing shot.

You could also just use a drone now a days.


View PostAzath Vitr (D, on 13 May 2021 - 02:23 PM, said:

View PostAptorian, on 13 May 2021 - 08:28 AM, said:

However there are also broken people out there who once they're discovered and are caught, can never be let out into society again. There are repeat offenders who rape and kill and terrorize. Organized criminals. Gang members. These types of people you could give the death penalty and I wouldn't cry a single tear for them.


It seems like a waste. If they're going to be killed, they should be given to science. Sure, 'cruel and unusual punishments' aren't permitted by US law, though if they're drugged or rendered unable to think, etc. it wouldn't necessarily be 'cruel' in the sense of causing more suffering than they'd otherwise experience on death row.


I can't follow you down that strain of thought. One thing is a clean death for crimes committed or a life ruined. Another is willfully hurting another person for gain. That would be monstrous. Or Chinese if you want to believe the rumors.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 13 May 2021 - 03:36 PM

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#13532 User is offline   amphibian 

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Posted 13 May 2021 - 07:44 PM

Killing a person bears costs both financial and emotionally. I don't want someone's job to be "killing people". I don't want to kill people, even if I train BJJ/MMA for the rest of my life. I don't want you to kill people. It'll break even the best people into pieces to do that. This is documented and known. The people most supportive of death penalties have nothing to do with the administration of the terrible justice system, the imprisonment of a person, and the eventual death of that person. They don't bear the weight or the consequences, especially if something goes wrong.

Death by firing squad might be better than suffering through botched lethal injections, yet neither is a good thing overall to be doing. We shouldn't be killing people. We shouldn't be giving prisoners who can't truly consent to science experiments.
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#13533 User is offline   Malankazooie 

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Posted 14 May 2021 - 04:34 PM

View PostMalankazooie, on 12 May 2021 - 05:36 PM, said:

Today is the day, yeah? I don't know what the latest is. Is Cheney voted out and that trump-a-dumper fruit loop in? 100% party of Trump now, yeah?

yup, the replacement is in. I like how they try to spin it; that she has a less conservative voting record then Liz Cheney. whoopdeedoo. Or in the words of the late great comedic genius, Chris Farley : la-di-frickin'-da!
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#13534 User is offline   Malankazooie 

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Posted 21 May 2021 - 11:41 PM

So it looks like the Trump SCOTUS legacy is primed to make hay during the 2021/2022 term, yeah? ACB going to be in the spotlight? Also, consider that this will be leading up to the 2022 midterm elections, so be prepared for it to dominate election messaging.
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#13535 User is offline   Maark Abbott 

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Posted 25 May 2021 - 07:54 AM

View PostGorefest, on 13 May 2021 - 12:29 PM, said:

certain human beings are fundamentally beyond help and hope.


Except this is true, there are some human beings fundamentally beyond help and hope.

They're called politicians.



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#13536 User is offline   Malankazooie 

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Posted 26 May 2021 - 08:10 PM

So the buzz with the MGM deal is Bezos will get the Apprentice property, with all the outtakes. Not that any of it would stick to Trump, because he seems to slither his way out of these things. Best case is Bezos sits on it until 2024 and release the outtakes as an October surprise.
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#13537 User is offline   Vengeance 

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Posted 26 May 2021 - 09:06 PM

View PostMalankazooie, on 26 May 2021 - 08:10 PM, said:

So the buzz with the MGM deal is Bezos will get the Apprentice property, with all the outtakes. Not that any of it would stick to Trump, because he seems to slither his way out of these things. Best case is Bezos sits on it until 2024 and release the outtakes as an October surprise.


If that is true. It would be really helpful for us in the late summer.
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#13538 User is offline   Azath Vitr (D'ivers 

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Posted 27 May 2021 - 06:13 PM

'an alarming 23 percent of Republicans polled said they believe the QAnon conspiracy theory's central belief that "government, media, and financial worlds are controlled by a group of Satan-worshipping pedophiles who run a sex-trafficking operation."

[...]

Twenty-eight percent of Republicans [...] said they agree that a storm will soon "sweep away the elites in power and restore the rightful leaders." Additionally, 42 percent of Americans who trust far-right news sources the most agreed that "because things have gotten so far off-track, true American patriots may have to resort to violence in order to save our country." About 27 percent of Americans who trust Fox News the most agreed with the same statement.'
https://www.thedaily...l-says?ref=home

'The poll's findings prompted one New York Times columnist to suggest that QAnon believers could soon "dominate the political system."

"This is slightly less than the % of Americans who supported Trump circa early 2015," wrote Max Fisher, who authors NYT's The Interpreter column. "Under our system's structural imbalances, that's enough to overtake the GOP and therefore dominate the political system.

"Reminder that QAnon orthodoxy explicitly calls, as a central plank of the movement, for publicly executing hundreds of thousands of Democrats and cultural figures,"'

https://www.alternet...non-2653126391/

'Democrats Are Running Out of Time

Anxiety is growing [...] over whether Democrats are responding with enough urgency to the accelerating Republican efforts to both suppress voting and potentially overturn future Democratic election victories.

[...] "I fear that perhaps some Democratic leaders may be suffering from … the idea that this cannot happen here and are bordering on dereliction of duty in not sounding the alarm to the American people and to the community of nations about the existential threat that the Republican Party now presents to American democracy," [...]

[...] "we are in a far more precarious place just five months later than we were even from November through January. If that trajectory continues, you can see where it's headed by November 2022 or November 2024."

The White House does see a risk in the possibility that Republicans—whether local election officials, GOP-controlled state legislatures, or a potential Republican majority in the U.S. House or Senate—will refuse to certify clear Democratic wins in the 2022 and 2024 elections. The senior Democrat told me, "Given how things have developed since January 6, if the situation is not brought under some control and this isn't countered effectively, then I think there is a significant risk" that "Republican officials, unlike the ones we saw standing up to pressure in 2020, are going to decline to certify Democratic victories." If Republicans hold the House, Senate, or both after the 2024 election, that could allow Congress to try to install a GOP president even if clear evidence exists that the Democrat won.

[...] Biden aides believe that the best way to overcome Republicans' undermining of upcoming elections is to maintain Democratic control of the House and Senate. [...]

[...] worry that he is so focused on producing kitchen-table results[...] that the voting-rights agenda will slip on the Senate priority list. If necessary, Biden can pass his spending plans through the special budget-reconciliation process that requires only a simple-majority vote. He can't do that with election-related legislation, and it's unclear how hard Biden[...] will press Manchin[...] and any other Senate Democrats who are reluctant to change the filibuster, the near-certain prerequisite to action on voting.

[...] the White House already appears to be pessimistic that there is any path to persuading Manchin to support sweeping election legislation in the first place.'

https://www.theatlan...-rights/619003/

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 27 May 2021 - 06:14 PM

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#13539 User is offline   Azath Vitr (D'ivers 

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Posted 07 June 2021 - 06:09 PM

Future's looking grim, unless Democrats manage to win the midterms and/or Manchin or some Republicans in the Senate (or perhaps state legislatures) can be turned:

'"We have to act now": Historian lays out a "nightmare" scenario for a stolen 2024 election

"I have the Cassandra feeling this spring because it is so obvious where all of this is heading, [...] Trump tells a Big Lie that elections are rigged. This authorizes him and others to seek power in extra-democratic ways. The lie is institutionalized by state legislation that suppresses voting, and that gives state legislatures themselves the right to decide how to allocate the electoral vote in presidential elections.
[...] Republicans win back the House and Senate in 2022, in part thanks to voter suppression. The Republican candidate in 2024 loses the popular vote by several million and the electoral vote by the margin of a few states. State legislatures, claiming fraud, alter the electoral count vote. The House and Senate accept that altered count. The losing candidate becomes the president. We no longer have 'democratically elected government.' And people are angry.

[...] not clear what the armed forces or civil servants would do. Most likely, they would fracture. An oath to defend the Constitution is hard to honor when it is unclear what it means. Both those who were stealing an election and those who were defending votes would claim that the Constitution was on their side.
[...] Businesses that want to avoid chaos between now and 2022 and prevent system breakdown in 2024 would be well-advised not to donate to politicians who repeat the Big Lie and suppress the vote, [...] We have to act now."'

https://www.alternet...021/06/big-lie/


...not sure how much of an impact big business is likely to have on the Trump party. Or how much they'd be willing to resist a fascist takeover that promises them lower taxes, deregulation, and pay-offs for those who comply, but attacks those who don't....

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 07 June 2021 - 06:10 PM

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#13540 User is offline   Malankazooie 

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Posted 09 June 2021 - 06:57 PM

Biden's Euro tour. How do you guys think the meeting with Putin will go?
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