[Tapper]

tiam, on 14 February 2012 - 10:21 PM, said:

Im half way through my reread and I think the Antsy as a character and as a plotline is probably the best.

You got it wrong though. Most overused word was 'hunh'. Still not as bad as everyone in SW who had a nap waking as though they had no rest at all

Well, second on my list was everyone kicking each other awake from slumber... including superior officers.

[Tapper]

Also, another issue: everyone and their dog knew Dassem had defeated Rake. Even the Seguleh knew, isolated as they were. But the Moranth somehow didn't, despite having an embassy in Darujhistan? Ehm, really?

[The Pack]

what about characters "magic night vision" having to be mentioned every time the surroundings changed/meeting a new group of people...

[blackzoid]

Tapper, on 14 February 2012 - 10:50 PM, said:

Also, another issue: everyone and their dog knew Dassem had defeated Rake. Even the Seguleh knew, isolated as they were. But the Moranth somehow didn't, despite having an embassy in Darujhistan? Ehm, really?

Huh? Are you talking about the part where the Moranth are surprised that Dassem is still alive?
Everyone knew that a person called Traveller had beaten Rake. I don't know how that name got out, but it did.
Its not mentioned in OST that people had figured out the name of Traveller was an alias of Dassem.

Maybe Crokus told everyone he met on the way out of Darujistan that someone called Traveller killed Rake.
I don't know. But he didn't have confirmation that Traveller was Dassem either. Karsa and Samar knew, but maybe they told no-one.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 16 February 2012 - 04:56 PM

[Abyss]

And the Dassem/Traveller/Dessembrae connection is far from clear-cut, especially with hints in TCG that the man and the god are not always the same, and back in RCG that he has different powers when acting in his god aspect.



IF AT FIRST YOU DON'T SUCCEED TRY TRY AGAIN: On the reread i caught where Jan bemoans the death of the last First, an old dude who wore a rough-cut wood mask. Jan himself didn't move to First because it must be given, not taken.

So when we see the Seguleh in OST, Jan is for all purposes the highest ranked of the Agatii and the leader.

[Tapper]

blackzoid, on 16 February 2012 - 04:52 PM, said:

Tapper, on 14 February 2012 - 10:50 PM, said:

Also, another issue: everyone and their dog knew Dassem had defeated Rake. Even the Seguleh knew, isolated as they were. But the Moranth somehow didn't, despite having an embassy in Darujhistan? Ehm, really?

Huh? Are you talking about the part where the Moranth are surprised that Dassem is still alive?
Everyone knew that a person called Traveller had beaten Rake. I don't know how that name got out, but it did.
Its not mentioned in OST that people had figured out the name of Traveller was an alias of Dassem.

Maybe Crokus told everyone he met on the way out of Darujistan that someone called Traveller killed Rake.
I don't know. But he didn't have confirmation that Traveller was Dassem either. Karsa and Samar knew, but maybe they told no-one.

It is made very clear that the Cult of Dessembrae was out on the streets the night Rake died, in anticipation of the Lord of Tragedy.
Dassem = Dessembrae was common knowledge. Even if that didn't get out, then Chillbais, who never apparently ever met Dassem, knows Dassem Ultor entered town. Dassem Ultor, not Traveller, not Dessembrae. So Baruk knows it, too.
Too many people know for it to be a secret.

[Cause]

Abyss, on 16 February 2012 - 05:20 PM, said:

And the Dassem/Traveller/Dessembrae connection is far from clear-cut, especially with hints in TCG that the man and the god are not always the same, and back in RCG that he has different powers when acting in his god aspect.



IF AT FIRST YOU DON'T SUCCEED TRY TRY AGAIN: On the reread i caught where Jan bemoans the death of the last First, an old dude who wore a rough-cut wood mask. Jan himself didn't move to First because it must be given, not taken.

So when we see the Seguleh in OST, Jan is for all purposes the highest ranked of the Agatii and the leader.

Yet its never explained why he was never offered the position. There is a scene where he is told that talk in the barracks is that he should take the position. If the Agatii thinks he should be first why don't they make him first!

It also contradicts what we were told by Krul in MOI. That Mok had been sent to face the pannions because the second feared his growing prowess. We now know that some Seguleh may indeed be 'corrupt' but Jan at least would never have thought this way. In fact we are privy to his thoughts that he is against anything that breaks Seguleh Isolation.

Lastly the first would not share his information with Jan. He held it back and so the Seguleh were confused when they confronted the Tyrant. Why did the first not share their history? There can presumably only ever be one first at a time so why would he not share the information with the man who was the closest thing to his successor.

[Abyss]

Cause, on 16 February 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

Abyss, on 16 February 2012 - 05:20 PM, said:

And the Dassem/Traveller/Dessembrae connection is far from clear-cut, especially with hints in TCG that the man and the god are not always the same, and back in RCG that he has different powers when acting in his god aspect.



IF AT FIRST YOU DON'T SUCCEED TRY TRY AGAIN: On the reread i caught where Jan bemoans the death of the last First, an old dude who wore a rough-cut wood mask. Jan himself didn't move to First because it must be given, not taken.

So when we see the Seguleh in OST, Jan is for all purposes the highest ranked of the Agatii and the leader.

Yet its never explained why he was never offered the position. There is a scene where he is told that talk in the barracks is that he should take the position. If the Agatii thinks he should be first why don't they make him first!

It also contradicts what we were told by Krul in MOI. That Mok had been sent to face the pannions because the second feared his growing prowess. We now know that some Seguleh may indeed be 'corrupt' but Jan at least would never have thought this way. In fact we are privy to his thoughts that he is against anything that breaks Seguleh Isolation.

Lastly the first would not share his information with Jan. He held it back and so the Seguleh were confused when they confronted the Tyrant. Why did the first not share their history? There can presumably only ever be one first at a time so why would he not share the information with the man who was the closest thing to his successor.

Actually, while it's never explained precisely why, iirc it was stated that he was told it would not be offered to him and he didn't want it. The talk in the barracks was that he should have had it anyways.

Re MoI, at that time we were told by Krul "...yet with the Second missing, and with Mok's growing prowess, no doubt the First had his reasons."

We don't know whether the Second ref'd there is Hood's Soldier/Knight, or someone else, but the First sending Mok had nothing to do with Jan directly. At a guess, Jan was promoted after Mok returned. And apparently they were brothers, so the First may have sent Mok to avoid fratricide.

[AnomanderRakeSoD]

The question is: How many people know the actual circumstances of Rake's death? I.e. Why he died etc

[tiam]

Abyss, on 16 February 2012 - 06:00 PM, said:

Cause, on 16 February 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

Abyss, on 16 February 2012 - 05:20 PM, said:

And the Dassem/Traveller/Dessembrae connection is far from clear-cut, especially with hints in TCG that the man and the god are not always the same, and back in RCG that he has different powers when acting in his god aspect.



IF AT FIRST YOU DON'T SUCCEED TRY TRY AGAIN: On the reread i caught where Jan bemoans the death of the last First, an old dude who wore a rough-cut wood mask. Jan himself didn't move to First because it must be given, not taken.

So when we see the Seguleh in OST, Jan is for all purposes the highest ranked of the Agatii and the leader.

Yet its never explained why he was never offered the position. There is a scene where he is told that talk in the barracks is that he should take the position. If the Agatii thinks he should be first why don't they make him first!

It also contradicts what we were told by Krul in MOI. That Mok had been sent to face the pannions because the second feared his growing prowess. We now know that some Seguleh may indeed be 'corrupt' but Jan at least would never have thought this way. In fact we are privy to his thoughts that he is against anything that breaks Seguleh Isolation.

Lastly the first would not share his information with Jan. He held it back and so the Seguleh were confused when they confronted the Tyrant. Why did the first not share their history? There can presumably only ever be one first at a time so why would he not share the information with the man who was the closest thing to his successor.

Actually, while it's never explained precisely why, iirc it was stated that he was told it would not be offered to him and he didn't want it. The talk in the barracks was that he should have had it anyways.

Re MoI, at that time we were told by Krul "...yet with the Second missing, and with Mok's growing prowess, no doubt the First had his reasons."

We don't know whether the Second ref'd there is Hood's Soldier/Knight, or someone else, but the First sending Mok had nothing to do with Jan directly. At a guess, Jan was promoted after Mok returned. And apparently they were brothers, so the First may have sent Mok to avoid fratricide.

Jan was found unworthy to be first yet he claims those in the barracks i.e. younger members of Seguleh society, forget it has to be offered not taken. This ofcourse contradicts Kruls 'the First sent Mok away because he was threatened by his growing prowess' argument. We now know Mok wanted to be sent, though the wiggle room here is that it could be claimed Mok desired to attack the Pannions and the First let him as a sort of trial to see if he was ready to become First because the Second was absent. Again this makes little sense in regards to OST given that it seems Jan has been Second for some time.

Jan himself references a Second whos denounced the Seguleh as 'slaves to tradition' or some such and claims that Second found 'true slavery', referencing ofcourse the Seguleh we see in TBH, with true slavery being represented as his service to Hood. I think it possible SE ran with the missing Second but this was changed with Jan being an established Second and the undead Second being a more ancient entity. Similar to the missing Kazz plotand Spites comment about a man pretending to be Kazz.

Also we cant really consider Kruls musing to be canonical as he expected 400 11th level initiates (Senus rank) to be sent whereas were told in OST that the largest Seguleh part sent abroad was 20 and this was considered a large number judging by Pallas reaction. Another odd note that can really be danced around is that Jan references Mok attacking the Pannions with his followers, not brothers. We could simply interpret brother ofc as brothers in arms in a similar way to Antsy's musing about the BB. This actually makes more sense as Jan is unconcerned by Thurules presence in D'stan or his fate in general.

It also explains why Senu may be absent from the books. He was never part of the Agatii and was in training so its plausible that he was also broken upon his return and lost what progress he had made. He may have even been killed or become a farmer and its not like this would be mentioned as its only the top 500 who actually go to D'stan. So if Senu and Thurule werent Moks actual brothers, possibly sword bearer types, their appearances, or lack of, make a bit more sense.

As for the reason the First didnt share his knowledge with Jan it was because he was only to share it with his successor which was never going to be Jan. As he was dying of old age he told Jan parts of it. Jan comments that it may have been shame that stopped him. We know that the First wore a wooden mask rather than a ceramic one to remind him and others that they are all flawed. He may not have wanted to tell Jan the truth that the Seguleh are simply guards, he might never expected the return of the Tyrant after all that time etc. After climbing to atleast Second in the rankings through skill and training to become the ultimate duellist he may not have wanted to share the burden of knowing the truth, sparing Jan from the crisis of identity that he undergoes in D'stan.

Im just coming upto the last quarter on my reread. Its much better this time round but really its the last quarter where all the disappointment it.

This post has been edited by tiam: 16 February 2012 - 07:45 PM

[Tapper]

But if the First judged it so freakinglishly important that someone knew of the Seguleh background, why would he allow that knowledge to die with him?

Anyhow, I thought the Second who mentioned slavery was the undead Second who then became a servant to Hood, who is also the one who caused the whole issue with First and Second and Third in the first place.

Regarding Mok and brothers: it is very well possible. Lo and Sall are also family, and you don't see any particular expressed concern there: it may well be shameful for those who wish to climb the ranks to show concern or emotion over family apart from pushing them to climb the ranks. Mok taking his brothers along with the motivation to give them a chance to win experience in real, visceral combat might very well be the Seguleh way of expressing trust and giving your family a leg up.

[blackzoid]

Tapper, on 16 February 2012 - 05:23 PM, said:

blackzoid, on 16 February 2012 - 04:52 PM, said:

Tapper, on 14 February 2012 - 10:50 PM, said:

Also, another issue: everyone and their dog knew Dassem had defeated Rake. Even the Seguleh knew, isolated as they were. But the Moranth somehow didn't, despite having an embassy in Darujhistan? Ehm, really?

Huh? Are you talking about the part where the Moranth are surprised that Dassem is still alive?
Everyone knew that a person called Traveller had beaten Rake. I don't know how that name got out, but it did.
Its not mentioned in OST that people had figured out the name of Traveller was an alias of Dassem.

Maybe Crokus told everyone he met on the way out of Darujistan that someone called Traveller killed Rake.
I don't know. But he didn't have confirmation that Traveller was Dassem either. Karsa and Samar knew, but maybe they told no-one.

It is made very clear that the Cult of Dessembrae was out on the streets the night Rake died, in anticipation of the Lord of Tragedy.
Dassem = Dessembrae was common knowledge. Even if that didn't get out, then Chillbais, who never apparently ever met Dassem, knows Dassem Ultor entered town. Dassem Ultor, not Traveller, not Dessembrae. So Baruk knows it, too.
Too many people know for it to be a secret.

"Dassem = Dessembrae was common knowledge" But was it common knowledge?

We only ever got the povs of soldiers who had some connection to Dassem or priests/historians who knew something about the cult itself. Didn't Braven Tooth himself comment in The Bonehunters that he thought that Dassem had died at Y'Ghatan? Until Temper told him the truth. If he did, its a good bet that the average Malazan citzen thought so. (Ganoes Paran in the GOTM prologue for example). I doubt that the average guy knew that death sometimes equals new god-hood. Because everyone still thinks that Shadowthrone/Cotillion are not the Emperor/Dancer.

Chillbais/Baruk are demons/scholars. No, I don't know why they would have known who he was. But they may not have told the Moranth/Seguleh/that challanger at the start either. And for some reason everyone said that Traveller as opposed to Dessembrae defeated Rake. So maybe the Cult didn't talk to anyone either? Also bear in mind the Moranth (and the Seguleh) are not the most social of people and the Moranth alliance with the Malazans was fading away by the time OST happened. So if the general Malazan command knew that Dassem was still alive (maybe from reports they received during his actions in RoTCG) they may have simply not bothered to tell the Moranth.

Ya, I'm jumping through some hoops here, but its not completely unbelieveable. The Cult/select Malazans/demons knew some info and didn't tell everyone. No big deal.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 17 February 2012 - 10:37 AM

[Cause]

We can jump through hoops to justify all sorts of plot holes, timeline issues and coincidences. We shouldn't have to.

[tiam]

Cause, on 17 February 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

We can jump through hoops to justify all sorts of plot holes, timeline issues and coincidences. We shouldn't have to.

Agreed though this has less to do with ICE, its simply more noticeable when he does it because we know so much more about Wu when you read his books. Weve been making excuses for SE for a while, were doing it with ICE now.

EDIT- Tapper- If they were MOks real brothers and Jans also then we should have heard something along the lines of Mok, as Third, returned broken but also that Thurule never came back and Senu is dead/swore off the sword. Jan would mention it as a cost of breaking there isolation rather than simply not mentioning his brothers associates.

This post has been edited by tiam: 17 February 2012 - 01:26 PM

[Abyss]

Tapper, on 17 February 2012 - 08:15 AM, said:

But if the First judged it so freakinglishly important that someone knew of the Seguleh background, why would he allow that knowledge to die with him?

Actually it's pretty clear from the book that the First wanted that knowledge to die with him and told Jan as little as he could get away with.
Which of coruse came back to bite them in the Segulass.

Quote

Anyhow, I thought the Second who mentioned slavery was the undead Second who then became a servant to Hood, who is also the one who caused the whole issue with First and Second and Third in the first place.

Seems likely, but not confirmed.

blackzoid, on 17 February 2012 - 10:31 AM, said:

..."Dassem = Dessembrae was common knowledge" But was it common knowledge?
...

I think that Dassem ascending to Dessembrae is common knowledge, but Dassem also walking around as Traveller is far from known.

Cause, on 17 February 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

We can jump through hoops to justify all sorts of plot holes, timeline issues and coincidences. We shouldn't have to.

Otoh,having to think a bit because the authors don't spoon feed everything to the reader isn't jumping thru hoops.
And anyways the timeline is not important the timeline is not important the timeline is not...

tiam, on 17 February 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

...Tapper- If they were MOks real brothers and Jans also then we should have heard something along the lines of Mok, as Third, returned broken but also that Thurule never came back and Senu is dead/swore off the sword. ...

Thurule's status was unclear up until the Seguleh walked into Envy's place.
Senu has never been mentioned after MoI - we have zero idea what happened to him.

Anyrate i still think K'rul's line about 'brothers' back in MoI was in a figurative sense, not a blood relation.

[limping dog]

I'm confused to why many people think Mok is 'broken' and sadden by Jan's comment.

Yes, I do realize Jan, his brother, says so. But look at the culture in Cant opposed to the experiences that Mok absorbed while on his conquest. I simply read it as Mok coming back to Cant with different ideas/ideals of the world and everyone thinking he's crazy. I think he's the first Segulah, maybe other than Rell, to realize it's not all about the Agati.

[tiam]

Abyss- I mentioned that above in my long post that was TL;DR for many

People think Mok is broken because its stated he was broken. He also lost his position in the Agatii.

[limping dog]

tiam, on 17 February 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

Abyss- I mentioned that above in my long post that was TL;DR for many

People think Mok is broken because its stated he was broken. He also lost his position in the Agatii.

Says he was broken by Jan. A stated opinion by someone who ultimately changed his mind on his whole purpose towards the end of the book. By all accounts, Jan could be looked at as 'broken' as he realized the fate of 'his' people under the Tyrant's rule.

[tiam]

limping dog, on 17 February 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

tiam, on 17 February 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

Abyss- I mentioned that above in my long post that was TL;DR for many

People think Mok is broken because its stated he was broken. He also lost his position in the Agatii.

Says he was broken by Jan. A stated opinion by someone who ultimately changed his mind on his whole purpose towards the end of the book. By all accounts, Jan could be looked at as 'broken' as he realized the fate of 'his' people under the Tyrant's rule.

Im not understanding where the conflict is coming from here. Im not suggesting he was physically broken and thats why he lost his position in the Agatii. It seems more likely he was spiritually broken, became disillusioned with Seguleh society etc. In fact we have a viewpoint from Sall who claims his father told him his journey to Dassem would be his biggest test. Sall explains its because there is no immediate hierarchy that everyone obeys and it is so different from Seguleh society. Thus it seems Mok felt the same way on his fight through the Pannions.

[Abyss]

However one interprets it, the notion that Mok came back from the Pannion War as anything other than the baddest badass Seguleh ever is hard to digest.
Entirely appropriate, given his experiences there and specifically those with Tool and Tok, but he was this unstoppable force in MoI and it's striking that in the eyes of the other Seguleh at least he came back as something other.

We've seen Lazan and Madrun (and then Thurule) as examples of Seguleh who were happy to break from the Agatii and go their own way and thumb their noses at the whole system, but somehow i don't expect Mok's break from the Seguleh to be like that.