[Khellendros]

I'll say it straight off, I think Orb, Sceptre, Throne was a step backwards for ICE. I admit this perception may come from comparison with its immediate predecessor, in the sense that after RotCG I didn't expect too much from SW and was pleasantly surprised in a lot (though not all) of ways. This time round, I guess I expected another bound forward in improvement, and didn't get it.

This was I think the most frustrating novel set in the Malazan universe that I have read, and the first one that I genuinely think I may not re-read.

Having said that, I still hold a lot of hope for both the Jacuruky and Assail novels. Why? Because I think the thing that ICE struggles the most with is fitting a story into an already-created world. The constraint seems to get to him. SW showed that he can be very competent at world-building, and I believe the not-previously explored settings of Jacuruku and Assail will allow ICE the freedom he needs.

Anyway, on to the brighter points of OST, because there were some here and there.


- Benden/Butcher:

My god Suth in SW was boring. While not quite as good as Nait/Jumpy in my estimation, ICE's new take on the soldier in the ranks is something we haven't seen before in the Malazan books. A guy with a lot of unlikeable qualities which are nevertheless well-explained by his upbringing. I enjoyed the comparisons and the subtle differences that Benden discovered between his previous life and his army life.

- Aragan:

Who didn't want to see Aragan step up to a central role in the Malazan books While not quite all I could have hoped for (his speech to the troops was a lame Aragorn-esque effort), it was still good to see him step up. BUT - where were his headaches?!

- The bone phone:

I liked how ICE redeemed a GotMism. Turning the bone phone into a Sceptre designed for direct communication with imperial HQ, and a closely-guarded secret (hence not many people ever mentioning it), was a nice twist. And it fits into the title of the book

- Dev'ad Anan Tol/The Miner Imass:

May have spelled his name wrong there I always felt bad for his seeming fate in TtH, and I thought it was a nice touch to see him playing cards with Raest What I did not like, however, was his jaunt across Majesty Hill to get to the Tyrant. From what we know of him, he 1) Was never a fighter, and 2) Certainly did not have millennia to practice because he was stuck with broken legs at the bottom of a pit for all of that time. Contrived and unnecessary.

- The beginning:

When I read the prologue and chapters which became available before release, I got quite excited. It was a great start and a great build up. The parts on the Seguleh Isle were very interesting and gave some good insight into Seguleh culture. Even for a while after these parts, I was enjoying the book. Ebbin's time in the tomb and the Tyrant's first appearance were suitably chilling, I thought. Plus there were hints that we would learn more of the Moranth, that other most mysterious race, as well as the Seguleh. A pity that did not transpire.

- Topper:

I thought that this was the one pre-existing character that ICE nailed. All the more surprising seeing as the Topper of RotCG was unrecognisable. But the haughtiness, arrogance, and the aura of menace was spot on.

- The truth of the T'orrud Cabal:

A twist that I didn't see coming, but one that actually made a lot of sense. All of the T'orrud, not just Vorcan, were demons who had previously been enslaved to the Tyrant. I have to say, I really really liked this twist. Now if only the rest of the Tyrant storyline had been as good...


Now for the bad, a lot of which are related to each other:


- The build-up:

The middle part of the book just dragged and dragged for me. Constant switching from one POV to another but seemingly very little happening in any of them. The pieces seemed so slow to fall into place, with little to no explanation or hints to the reader why exactly any of these things were happening.

- The ending:

This book and SW suggest that ICE has a real problem knowing where his novel is actually going. Both ended ubruptly, surprisingly (not in a good way) and before the action had even seemed to really get going. Honestly, when all the characters started saying goodbye to each other and we were getting wrap-up scenes for everyone, I was thinking, "So wait, the Tyrant's dead then?!".

- Kruppe:

I don't know why this hasn't been mentioned more. I know in the grand scale of things, this seems minor, but actually, is it? This is, after all, a major, and very distinctive, character whom we have all known for a long time and a lot of people love. What am I referring to specifically? The use of first-person when Kruppe was speaking, which happened roughly two-thirds of the time. This may seem minor, but it's such an essential feature of Kruppe's character that he speaks in third-person that it completely jarred me from the novel each and every time! And the ways in which it happened! In the same sentence, ICE would constantly switch between first- and third-person! At least be consistent! I don't know whether to blame ICE or his editor for this, but it seems like such an easy thing to get right. Honestly, how hard is it to remember that this one character refers to themselves in the third-person? It was very disappointing, especially after I had heard so many early readers say that ICE's Kruppe was good. I would have to disagree.

- The Spawn:

The main issue that I had with the Spawn plotline is what Antsy was doing there in the first place. It didn't seem particularly believable to me that Antsy would just leave the others in Darujhistan when they had unfinished business with Humble Measure. Yes, Blend had taken care of the Assassin's Guild, but she had also extracted the name of Humble Measure from Seba Krafar as the contractor, so why did they not go after him? I mean, aside from the fact that ICE didn't want to write about it?

There were other issues with this plotline, however, such as the vast wealth of precious gems and other treasures which the Andii seem to have decorated the Spawn with. This just runs contradictory to everything we've heard of the Andii under Rake, who couldn't care less about such things. I'm not saying they wouldn't have ever collected anything, but when rooms decorated with gleaming gems and jewels were described all I could think of was, 'Really? Andii? Really?'. There were some other, more personal and minor, frustrations with this plotline - such as Malakai transforming from assassin to super-thief when the plot called for it, and ICE's proclivity for having Draconus turn up at random moments in shade form. Oh yes, and why exactly was the First's mask in Moon's Spawn?

- The Seguleh:

Sigh. So much potential. Such a hopeful start too. But then it was as if ICE had thought, "right, got that over with, I think that's depth to the Seguleh culture pretty much covered!" Ok, I did like the fact that we got POVs from the Seguleh, and I did like how their belief system was turned on its head - an exodus turned into exile - over time. And we even perhaps got a bit more depth given to them than I initially gave credit, through Lo and his son (though any problems they had appear to have been swept under the carpet at the end). Jan, too, was not a bad character, and actually had some of the best internal monologues in the book. The problem lies not in their "screentime", however, but in what they did with it, which turned out to be very little. Yes, they were in a lot of fight scenes, but we've seen Seguleh fight before - this was a book which could have shown that they were not just one-dimensional fighting machines.

Concerning the Seguleh, the thing that frustrated me the most, by far, was the fact that Senu and Mok were missing from the book. Yes, I understand that ICE wanted to do it with his own characters like Jan, but it's pretty appalling to thrust aside someone like Mok, who, as Third, is a major part of the Seguleh world with the dismissive lines "had returned broken." Why? How? When? When this line was read, it conjured up all sorts of intriguing notions about what could have happened to Mok, when he was going to enter the scene, what he would do, etc....but to then turn out that ICE had simply written that in order to not have to bother putting Mok into the story was pretty unbelievable.

- Tayschrenn:

I actually had no problems with the Kiska/Tay storyline (except for the irritating way Leoman's moustache was described *every single time* Leoman was mentioned) until near the end, after Tayschrenn gets his memories back. He then has an existential crisis, WHICH LASTS ALL OF FIVE LINES. "Why not be both?" "Yeah, ok! Or, erm, hmmm, got to try and sound deep here....perhaps neither too!" I will reserve judgement on the T'renn absorption with K'rul thing because it will probably come up in another book, but even that leads to that other problem - too much seemingly unnecessary ambiguity.

- The Moranth:

I didn't understand this. ICE clearly loves the Moranth. He's managed to crowbar them into plots in both RotCG and SW after all. And again, early hints that we would learn more of them. Not to be, again. Why is it that the Moranth always seem to be the ones who remember everything accurately, whether it be about the Barghast, Edur, or Seguleh, and no one else can? I'm not saying that can't be the case, but doesn't that sound like an interesting concept to follow through on? Of course, this is not even to mention the guild/caste system which wasn't expanded on at all despite the Moranth's central role in proceedings.

And for all those saying that at least we learned why the Moranth have their munitions and armour - to help combat the Seguleh - while I agree, isn't that just inference? I don't remember that actually being mentioned in the book.

- The Rhivi:

So they're a horse culture are they now? Funny how we haven't heard anything about that before.

- The Malazans:

Many interesting characters pushed to one side and left helpless and useless, I think that was what was galling here. Especially when it didn't have to be. Fist Steppen, for example, came across as someone to whom there was much more to learn about - the last commander of the last remnants of the army that was at Black Coral, and what was it with her propensity to build forts? - but then we have one brief POV with her which reveals nothing before she dies. The ten-thousand strong Malazan army which appeared to have no clue how to fight against (ok, the very best) four hundred warriors. K'ess and co didn't come across as people who underestimated the Seguleh, and yet they appeared to have no tactics whatsoever either.

And that crying scene was cringing, inappropriate, unbelievable, stupid, and nonsensical.

And then the Bridgeburners. Talk about being sidelined. ICE had no idea what to do with them, and anything that they did end up doing turned out useless and unnecessary anyway. And why exactly was K'rul's bar/temple being attacked? Never explained. Yes, I get they wanted to get to K'rul, but why? And why, before them, did Humble Measure wish to do the same?

- The Tyrant:

So....he's a mask? Because, from the levels of explanations within the book, that's about as much factual truth as is available. The main problem here is one of motivation. Why is he so hell bent on ruling Genabackis? Just because? Why does he keep coming back? What was he in the past? And then - why did those arrows kill him? Yes, I know they were made from bits of Dragnipur, but so what? What effect did that have exactly? Not explained. There was one great scene with the Tyrant, and that was when he was revisiting a past memory with Ebbin, and he was talking about escaping fate and not having things turn out exactly the same. Why weren't there more of these scenes - this seems a perfect way to get across his past, his motivation, his plans, etc. In the end, for all we know, he did everything exactly the same and so things turned out exactly the same. We don't know what, if anything, he attempted different.


There's more things really, but I'll just go on to this:

- THE MAIN ONE: Ambiguity:

Here is the main difference between SE and ICE: SE HAS AMBIGUOUS AND MYSTERIOUS CHARACTERS, ICE HAS AMBIGUOUS PLOTS. That's why ICE can't seem to pull off ambiguity to the same mostly-satisfying extent that SE can. Far, far far too much reliance on (literally) "then something happened", "him", "it", and "....." when characters are suddenly interrupted for no good reason. This style was personified by the witch who said almost nothing but "almost time...." for the entire book. Constantly I was asking what actually just happened, hoping it would be explained later, only to find that nothing ever was. Too many key plot points with ALL the major characters happened off-screen.

Do you know what it felt like actually? Like ICE was contractually obliged to write this one, and tried to get it over with as quickly as possible. I'm not saying that's what it felt like the whole time, but certainly there were moments...


QUESTIONS:


- How come the Moranth were fighting the Seguleh before the shield wall even came down? Can people simply pass through it when munitions can't?

- Was the Tyrant finished off by the arrows, or by Kruppe dancing around him, and why?

- Was it the Tyrant's mask that Humble Measure and Barathol took at the end?

- What was Vorcan referring to when she said, 'Well, I had to try' to Rallick at the end?

[tiam]

Completely agree and claiming ICE has ambiguous plots is exactly right.

As for Kruppe though it seems hes more than the foremost mortal mind that weve been led to believe for oh, I dunno, 10000 pages of text and it seems hes the Tyrants main enemy. Vague references to 'him' throughout OST seem to refer to Kruppe and he seems to have always been around to keep the circle of Tyranny broken.

While I really liked ROTCG I feel the a similar way about OST. Namely what would have happened if we give SE the Old Guard, Korel and the Tyrant plotline?

This post has been edited by tiam: 05 February 2012 - 01:40 PM

[Isa]

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And that crying scene was cringing, inappropriate, unbelievable, stupid, and nonsensical.

Might not use those words exactly... well, except for cringing, there was definitely cringing. I tired my best to rationalize but, in the end, still couldn't quite accept crying as a believable reaction under the circumstances.

I agree with pretty much all of your pros and cons. And yet, all in all, I enjoyed this far more than any other ICE novel. I think the biggest improvement is in how he handles characters which, overall, seem more interesting. As a result, even though the destination was a bit of a let down, the journey was quite entertaining at times. Regarding the characters, I still have to say that it irks me to no end that most of the female characters seem to have the same personality. While I appreciate that they are not subdued housewives or princesses in need of rescue, do they all need to be "feisty"? I'm struggling right now to think of one woman in OST that isn't feisty. Granted, Orchid at least had her moments but she's the only one I can think of.

[blackzoid]

I'd agree mostly with what you have said. Some very fair points. I'd personally be more generious with this book and rate it at about the same level as SW. No growth in ICE's style since then but some good scenes. Your point about ICE's ambigious plots is well thought out and fair.
I would still rate it much better than the piece of garbage that was RoTCG.

[Fist Gamet]

I think you pretty much nailed it, Khellendros. I sympathise with ICE, to some extent, because of the various restrictions he must write under, but I think it boils down to the simple truth that he is simply not as skilled a writer as SE, whilst trying to more or less pull of the same kinds of stories. Granted, building mystery around such as the Seguleh, for so long, and then writing about them in more depth is almost guaranteed to let someone, somewhere down. However, I said in another thread that whilst I think he made a terrific job of the Crimson Guard, he made a poor one of the Seguleh. In the end, these supercool warriors just annoyed the shit out of me, and that annoyed me even more because it should never have happened. The ass-kicking (as you said) the Malazan Veterans get was pure BS and I kept asking myself if this is how Dujek's Host or TBH would have fared - and the answer is no. No tactics, fleeing a defensive position, poorly supplied, no munitions or half-decent squad mages, ten thousand well trained veterans of a famously adaptable and flexible military machine being savaged by 400 warriors armed only with swords, bearing no shields or ranged weaponry and not a single mage to speak of...and the Seguleh come out of it unharmed with Malazan wounded at '40 percent'. No, no, no. Rubbish. It is a basic rule of writing that if you put something totally unbelievable and far-fetched into your story you will just alienate the reader and lose credibility for the rest of the story.

And I got confused at the end, too. The magic barrier is maintained by the circle of white stone, yes? Resisting the munitions, yes? Seguleh wait inside magic dome, then suddenly fighting Moranth both outside and inside the Council Halls...then Brood, after all this, simply does what now? And just how is it the Seguleh seem to be able to survive munitions blasts, albeit wounded? Legs dangling off, eyes missing and still killing and maiming trained soldiers before going down...argh!

Rant done!

[champ]

Fist Gamet, on 05 February 2012 - 06:42 PM, said:

And just how is it the Seguleh seem to be able to survive munitions blasts, albeit wounded? Legs dangling off, eyes missing and still killing and maiming trained soldiers before going down...argh!

Rant done!

What, you mean that they weren't zombies?

[the broken]

champ, on 05 February 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:

Fist Gamet, on 05 February 2012 - 06:42 PM, said:

And just how is it the Seguleh seem to be able to survive munitions blasts, albeit wounded? Legs dangling off, eyes missing and still killing and maiming trained soldiers before going down...argh!

Rant done!

What, you mean that they weren't zombies?

That's just because they're so disciplined. They can't survive munitions, their force was annihilated, but the Seguleh that do survive are disciplined enough to keep fighting through the pain... and lethel enough to kill trained soldiers even missing limbs.

Spoiler

It's like when Rell was burned in the Crimson Guard He wasn't immune to burns in the temple of Li Heng, but he just had the discipline to stay where he was while lesser soldiers would run away or be immobilised by pain.

How come people can accept THREE Seguleh destroying entire Pannion Armies in MOI, but they can't accept that FOUR HUNDRED of the best Seguleh on the Island are more than capable of taking on a depleted, mage and sapperless Malazan army?

As for Dujek's host, they were slaughtered by K'Chain Che Malle in Coral once they ran out of munitions. This malazan army doesn't have any to begin with.

[tiam]

the broken, on 06 February 2012 - 02:50 PM, said:

champ, on 05 February 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:

Fist Gamet, on 05 February 2012 - 06:42 PM, said:

And just how is it the Seguleh seem to be able to survive munitions blasts, albeit wounded? Legs dangling off, eyes missing and still killing and maiming trained soldiers before going down...argh!

Rant done!

What, you mean that they weren't zombies?

That's just because they're so disciplined. They can't survive munitions, their force was annihilated, but the Seguleh that do survive are disciplined enough to keep fighting through the pain... and lethel enough to kill trained soldiers even missing limbs.

Spoiler

It's like when Rell was burned in the Crimson Guard He wasn't immune to burns in the temple of Li Heng, but he just had the discipline to stay where he was while lesser soldiers would run away or be immobilised by pain.

How come people can accept THREE Seguleh destroying entire Pannion Armies in MOI, but they can't accept that FOUR HUNDRED of the best Seguleh on the Island are more than capable of taking on a depleted, mage and sapperless Malazan army?

As for Dujek's host, they were slaughtered by K'Chain Che Malle in Coral once they ran out of munitions. This malazan army doesn't have any to begin with.

A couple of things

It wasnt three Seguleh taking on the entirety of Pannions armies. They simply held one flank while the First Sword of the Imass held the other and an Elder Goddess held the centre with 2 HOS sized beasts in between. There is a difference.

Dujeks Host was cut to shreds by the KCCM but its contrived that the Malazans had no munitions. Taya taking out the mages is fine and shows fore thought by the Tyrant (if were generous) so theyre protected on that front. However we see fairly close relations between the Moranth and the Malazan presence on Genabackis, despite the allaince breaking down. Futhermore if the Moranth knew the Seguleh were coming and the Malazans were at the foot of the mountain, which they did, then why didnt they stock the Malazans with munitions?

The force wasnt depleted either, were told it was 10000 strong, which is upto number for the presence that Dujek had on Genabackis. While the soldiers werent the Host but merely remnants of it and new recruis they should have had mass missile superiority. While we see a lone Seguleh being wounded by 15 crossbow bolts, mass fire would have dealt with them. Theres a few contrived reasons the Malazans lost and I can only assume it was to allow ICE to have that weeping scene where the Moranth bomb the shit out of them.

EDIT- Another reason is the Malazan army has been fighting warrior societies since its inception. Disciplined ranks hold against individual warriors. Now the Seguleh ambushing 30000 Rhivi is actually more believable. Firstly the Rhivi are described as skirmishers so aould be lightly armoured meaning Seguleh speed and stamina would win out. Secondly the Rhivi seem to be some sort of horse culture in this book despite us seeing a Bhederin charge in GOTM. Ambushing a force like that is different than the Malazan infantry. It seems contrived, and while I agree with you about the discipline of the Seguleh allowing some of them to survive the bomb blast like Rell in ROTCG, 40% incapacitated to relatively few casualties isnt right.

The KCCM where undead. We see how important that is with Palla fighting the Miner and losing while he acknowledges that he would have lost if hed been alive. We see in DoD that a mortal army can stand against living KCNR because its possible to hamstring them/sever ligaments etc, whereas fighting undead KCCM the only option was to blow them to pieces. If the Kell Hunter Itkovian and his mane ride down in MOI was alive, im sure they would have done much better. We know Kell Hunters are faster when alive but this is offset by the endurance they gain from being dead.

EDITED EDIT- Just read Khellendoros original post again. As for the Andii culture being obsessed with jewels not fitting with what weve seen:

One of the newer inconsistencies we get from OST (it can be danced around tbh) is that Rake sailed out from KG on it with a load of followers. Now its possible that it was decorated before the Andii became like the Imass, completely and utterly fatigued by existence thus allowing them to decorate it. While we see the Andii of the main arc as using plain weapons and caring little for their dead etc, it possible that the Spawn was around before the sundering between MD and Rake. Also the Andii have been around with a floating fortress and while I cant imagine them looting Rake is said to hav an extensive library so its possible they simply collected riches to be useful later. We see Enddest Silann in a custodial castellan role so maybe they needed coin for weapons/ food so thy werent a burden while on campaign.

This post has been edited by tiam: 06 February 2012 - 04:15 PM

[Cause]

the broken, on 06 February 2012 - 02:50 PM, said:

How come people can accept THREE Seguleh destroying entire Pannion Armies in MOI, but they can't accept that FOUR HUNDRED of the best Seguleh on the Island are more than capable of taking on a depleted, mage and sapperless Malazan army?
As for Dujek's host, they were slaughtered by K'Chain Che Malle in Coral once they ran out of munitions. This malazan army doesn't have any to begin with.

SE played to his strengths when he wrote those scenes. Meaning that he didn't. We heard about, we knew it was happening. We were treated to small moments of awesome wherein Mok and co slew a squad of Seerdomin and dueled with the first sword of Imass. We knew they were bad ass but SE was never so foolish to actually try and write a scene of three men battling two hundred and winning. Even if he could right such a scene the truth is such fights fit better in the medium of movies or comics. I mean was Dassem ever so cool as he was when he was the coolest character in a series that never was?

Besides I always read the three seguleh battling the pannions armies as like I describe above. They were battling small 'armies'. The dregs of men left behind that were not heading up north to battle in the siege of Capustan. Untrained, poorly equipped mobs backed by a small spine of seerdomin or urdomin. Not a disciplined shield wall of two hundred seerdomin. Besides as has been mentioned two super hounds, an imass which can dust up in the middle of the enemy formation and a super elder sorceress backed them up. I imagine most battles ended in routs in minutes.
Which again brings us to four hundred Seguleh vs 10000 Malazans.

1) They don’t want to surround the seguleh because they want them to rout. Okay they don’t know the seguleh like we do, so they can’t know they would never rout but still you can bring superior numbers to bear and still allow an avenue of withdrawal.
2) Aragan withdraws his troops back to the mountains so he can maintain a smaller front. It’s the reverse logic of the battle of Thermopylae. We have superior numbers so let’s fight in a tunnel where that advantage will be negated
3) Lets abandon our fortifications
4) No frontline fighting force like the malazans has ever suffered forty percent casualties and not routed
5) The malazans would have charged! Not waited for the seguleh to meet them. Ten thousand men charging in ordered ranks would have a momentum that simply could not be stopped by a single, widely spaced line of duellists. The way that battle is described is simply lazy writing.

I always wondered what the whole of seguleh society would look like. Would they have members who specialised in the bow? The spear? Would they have cavalry? Members trained like the claw. How do they counter sorcery? When Oru encounters Iron Bars he tells them if anyone reaches for a warren the seguleh would know. Did this mean some seguleh are also mages? Do they have ottoteral swords? Do their priests protect them? They have not had a cabal to protect them for millennia they must have evolved some sort of protection.

I can’t be disappointed that my conjectured visions were not how SE or ICE ever imagined them but I think I can be disappointed that in the end the Seguleh were nothing but a lazy plot device that consists of thousands of swordsman who are as a good or as bad as they need to be depending on whether the story calls for them to kill or be killed. One seguleh could roll to dodge a single rhivi lancer. Make it a thousand horses charging a hundred seguleh and the room that those manoeuvres require would just not be possible.
All this aside I’m fast losing faith with a series of books in which no one caught the Rhivi’s sudden metamorphosis into a steppe people. It makes me wonder if SE even reads ICE’s novels before they are published and vice versa

This post has been edited by Cause: 06 February 2012 - 08:08 PM

[Fist Gamet]

I refer the honourable gentlemen to the replies Tiam and Cause gave some moments ago...

As an aside, I had completely forgotten that Torvald Now first appeared as a captured bandit in Silver Lake in the slave pit with Karsa, then accompanied out big chunky hero all the way to Seven Cities...alas, he is completely unrecognisable in OST from the bold, brash and brave outlaw of HoC. Also, the reread of HoC brought a delightful rediscovery of Cord, Kindly and Pores...

[the broken]

The Pannion Domin had seven armies if I recall correctly. Hence 'Septarch' was the title of their generals. One besieged Capustan, probably a few were damaged from prior battles, but Envy and Co cut a path into the Domin's capital city, so I can't think that no real armies were sent against them.

It was a weird battle, yes (why no bows), but 40% Casualties is only ten kills/incapacitations for each Seguleh. It's not impossible.

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see a lone Seguleh being wounded by 15 crossbow bolts

The spokesman is always the lowest rank present. Some of the others could probably have avoided being hit. Mass missile fire would deal damage, but it wouldn't rout the Seguleh.


I'm not saying that this was well written, but it was a 'this is unlikely' rather than a 'this is impossible' moment for me.

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Futhermore if the Moranth knew the Seguleh were coming and the Malazans were at the foot of the mountain, which they did, then why didnt they stock the Malazans with munitions?

Because the munitions could be used more effectively by the moranth themselves, in, for example, an aerial bombardment that utterly shreds the enemy ranks in seconds, maybe?

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Ten thousand men charging in ordered ranks would have a momentum that simply could not be stopped by a single, widely spaced line of duellists

Duellists don't need to stop momentum. They retreat in front of it, cutting down the nearest soldiers while backing up, which causes the oncoming ranks to trip over corpses, which slows them and disorders the ranks. (Normal soldiers couldn't do this, but we're already talking about the elites of a people that can dismember undead K'Chain'Che'Malle. One Agatii and two low rankers cut apart an undead K'ell Hunter in MOI.)

[Cause]

the broken, on 07 February 2012 - 03:26 PM, said:

The Pannion Domin had seven armies if I recall correctly. Hence 'Septarch' was the title of their generals. One besieged Capustan, probably a few were damaged from prior battles, but Envy and Co cut a path into the Domin's capital city, so I can't think that no real armies were sent against them.

It’s impossible to know. SE never explicitly states the size of the armies the Seguleh encountered. However Septarchs were administrators and generals. There were seven districts but I don’t think there were seven armies. Still I remember that Septarch Kulpath lead half the total number of Beklites (50 000) a significant amount of Urdomen (8000) and significant support attachments of skirmishers and cavalry and almost all the tenescowri. Clearly Pannion was commited to this siege. I doubt we are meant to understand for example that 50 000 more beklites remained behind. Instead of a force that once numbered 100 000 men, before several sieges and battles septarch Kulpath had 50 000. Of course significant troops at least in regards to to a group numbering less than ten remained behind. Still if they remained behind they must have done so for a reason. Not every soldier available was sent against the Seguleh. Pannion held back significant forces at Corral for his defence for example. I interpret then that the armies sent against them numbered significantly less than anything approaching 10 000. More likely a 1000 men at most at any one time. Also keep in mind they met and defeated several armies. If each was as large as say ten thousand we have to wonder why such large reserves of men were sitting idle. They could have turned the siege of capustan.

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It was a weird battle, yes (why no bows), but 40% Casualties is only ten kills/incapacitations for each Seguleh. It's not impossible.

The way it was written that in a few short minutes each seguleh killed or incapacitated ten Malazan while suffering almost no casualties of their own. Look at it another way. Each seguleh had to find a gap in ten shields while avoiding the thrusts of ten swords. 400 men against ten thousand could not avoid having their every flank so exposed. Also while skilled Seguleh are not super human. They would also have had to avoid areas covered by armour.
Also as you yourself admit. There were no bows, no crossbows, no javelins thrown before the first melee (a tactic that Dujek trained the Genebackis Malazans to do.) This is why my primary complaint of these scenes is not the ridiculous skill of the Seguleh (I loved them in MoI) but the lazy ass way the scene is written and described. It’s written as if the Malazans And seguleh meet and fight a hundred simultaneous duels again and again. It’s not written as the clash of two armies which is what it was.
Again I wish to mention that the Malazans suffering the casualties they did so quickly, while delivering none of their own should have, would have routed. Especially when the threat of the seguleh to them or the empire was unclear. Did they stand to die to protect the Moranth? Their allies of exptionally questionable motives and loyalties?

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The spokesman is always the lowest rank present. Some of the others could probably have avoided being hit. Mass missile fire would deal damage, but it wouldn't rout the Seguleh. I'm not saying that this was well written, but it was a 'this is unlikely' rather than a 'this is impossible' moment for me.

Not too upset by this one. I found it incredulous but the author wrote that a Seguleh can deflect a quarrel fired at point blank range with his sword. It is written and I must accept or reject it. This to me is along the lines of accepting or rejecting magic. It’s a part of the world and its mythos. However we see that fifteen quarrels per Seguleh will deal damage. What would have happened when 1000 crossbows were fired at the four hundred seguleh? Perhaps concentrated at fifty at a time? We have seen in every book previous that Malazan stock pile crossbows like a fashion accessory that go with everything. Still neither the Malazans nor the Rhivi ever again try missile weapons? Every Rhivi knows how to use a sling, we have seen it. Am I looking for holes? Or is this a perfectly reasonable question? Its personeel opinion but again it comes down to was it a clash of armies or of men.

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Duellists don't need to stop momentum. They retreat in front of it, cutting down the nearest soldiers while backing up, which causes the oncoming ranks to trip over corpses, which slows them and disorders the ranks. (Normal soldiers couldn't do this, but we're already talking about the elites of a people that can dismember undead K'Chain'Che'Malle. One Agatii and two low rankers cut apart an undead K'ell Hunter in MOI.)

Can you run faster backwards than you can forward? Can you run backwards on uneven terrain without looking back? Can you do both of these things while looking for gaps in several shields at once? While avoiding enemy sword thrusts? What do four hundred men do when the enemy’s line is over twice their own length? How do they counter the enemies right flank surging forward? The battle as you describe would still seem funny to me but at least it would have meant that ICE gave it some thought.
ICE himself in Stone Wielder has a marine mention how the malazans would beat the seguleh. Discipline of thousands will always overcome the individual prowess of a society of individual warriors he says. I had hoped this line was foreshadowing that would show either the Malazans were a match for the Seguleh or that there was more to them then we had seen. Maybe they did have experts in ranged weapons. Maybe they guard the Tyrant in his fortress or from the walls of Darujhistan where the fortifications take away the enemies advantage in numbers. Maybe they would launch night raids on Malazan camps. It seems to me that each Seguleh is a match for a claw in speed agility and stealth and their superiors in combat.

[Tattersail_]

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- How come the Moranth were fighting the Seguleh before the shield wall even came down? Can people simply pass through it when munitions can't?

I imagine so yes, I think the shield was up above the walls etc not blocking door ways and arches etc..

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- Was the Tyrant finished off by the arrows, or by Kruppe dancing around him, and why?

Both, I think the arrows contained a poison and that Kruppe was getting the blood to flow around the tyrants body

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- Was it the Tyrant's mask that Humble Measure and Barathol took at the end?

I must have missed this.

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- What was Vorcan referring to when she said, 'Well, I had to try' to Rallick at the end?

To save her daughters life I assumed. But the way you ssay it makes it look like she failed at doing something.




As you your review, I enjoyed the book but agree with your points, I am just happy to overlook them to be honest. I wish we got to see Dassem dance and Brood actually lose his temper or other big things but it was like a BUILD UP OF A THREAT that was actually not much of one in the end. I wish the tyrant had got to full power and then the malazan's save the world but I still like the story and the book.

This post has been edited by Tattersail: 09 February 2012 - 10:05 AM

[LadyMTL]

I agree with most of the points brought up in the original post, except I didn't actually mind the constant referrals to Leoman's moustache. I found it sort of reflected how Kiska was annoyed as all hell at being stuck at the shores of Creation with the man and yet was oddly drawn to him despite that. (Moustache as symbolism, perhaps?)

As for the mask that Humble and Barathol took, I do think that it was the Tyrant's. Especially when you consider how Barathol was adamant about washing afterwards and how he dumped all of his smithing equipment into the ocean and warned the fisherman that it was cursed, it makes sense. I mean, what else in OST could be so dangerous and "poisoned" ?

The two points that really disappointed me were the Tyrant's death, as I had hoped for a real knock-down drag-out fight and what I got felt like it was almost accidental. I mean, when the Tyrant first awoke and was still in that pit grave he was unkillable, and I assumed that he wouldn't die easily. The second part that I wasn't crazy about was the soldiers' reaction to what the Moranth did. I mean...crying? Really? Hardened veterans who have in some cases been through hell and lived to tell the tale are crying like babies? I understand ICE's point - there's no honor in killing from afar, down with bombs, make love not war, etc - but yeah, the weeping and wailing just came off as lame.

All in all, I didn't find OST to be horrible but it was a bit of a letdown, especially compared to ICE's other works.

This post has been edited by Maia Irraz: 09 February 2012 - 03:55 PM

[voland]

The OP pretty much nails my experience as well. Disappointing is a word that sums it up pretty well.

I think the most jarring aspect was Malazan Marines crying over the use of munitions. I mean, really? Their entire method of warfare is pretty much based on them (exaggerated I know), and all of a sudden they cry that 400 Seguleh, who just previously had slaughtered them, were going to get blown to hell. Simply weird. And the end kinda just fizzled out. I at least expected some kinda showdown with the tyrant, but instead we get the two comic relief characters slapstick him to death. With arrows just appearing out of nowhere (or did I miss something?). My least favorite of ICE's novels so far.

[Harvester]

The bolts were partly made out of shards of Dragnipur, which were taken from Baruk's chest by Kruppe. This is why the fisherman hears the dangling of chains when Humble dumps his tools into the lake. What Derudan did to them is still up in the air, but she is the matron witch of Tennes and Dragnipur was forged in the flames of Burn's heart...

This post has been edited by Harvester: 12 February 2012 - 02:39 AM

[voland]

Harvester, on 12 February 2012 - 02:28 AM, said:

The bolts were partly made out of shards of Dragnipur, which were taken from Baruk's chest by Kruppe. This is why the fisherman hears the dangling of chains when Humble dumps his tools into the lake. What Derudan did to them is still up in the air, but she is the matron witch of Tennes and Dragnipur was forged in the flames of Burn's heart...

Yeah, I recall the clanking of chains and remember wondering what dragnipur had to do with anything. Then I promptly forgot about it. That all makes sense, and props to ICE for not spelling it out explicitly. I blame the fever for not catching all that

[Spoilsport Stonny]

I dont think its so strange that the Malazans start weeping. Isn't the God of Tragedy traveling (snicker) in their general direction? I think he's carrying a sword named grief, too, also considering there's a chance some of 'dem dere soldiers even worshipped among the cult o' Dassem, it might be one of them, whaddya call its, themes....But I also understand how it can seem alien and given ICEs track record and style, I don't blame anyone for making a bigger deal out of it than may or may not be necessary.

[tiam]

Does anyone else think the sergeant of the sappers on p.297 in Jumpy from ROTCG?

[champ]

tiam, on 13 February 2012 - 06:56 PM, said:

Does anyone else think the sergeant of the sappers on p.297 in Jumpy from ROTCG?

I thought it could have been, I know when I read it I got excited thinking it was and then... nothing! :sadpanda:

This post has been edited by champ: 13 February 2012 - 07:12 PM