[tiam]

Yeh he doesnt appear again AFAIK but with the mention of the Moranth and the squad not believing his exploits, plus his language suggesting sex solves everything makes me think it is.

Disappointed we didnt get more.

[The Pack]

tiam, on 13 February 2012 - 07:50 PM, said:

Yeh he doesnt appear again AFAIK but with the mention of the Moranth and the squad not believing his exploits, plus his language suggesting sex solves everything makes me think it is.

Disappointed we didnt get more.

On the face of it, i did enjoy this book. I wanted to learn more about the seguleh and we did. HOWEVER, reading the lists of dubious plot lines, things i had forgotten about/ that didn't register in my mind, i can't help feeling that ICE's books just aren't up to scratch with the rest of the world of Wu. I wish ICE's books filled that role of expanding the world that SE teases us with, but OST is another crimson guard, and sadly ruins certain characters, like nom, seguleh (although learning about their culture was satisfying) and especially the malazans, that i feel is the worst part.

Spoiler

At the end was i the only one hoping that Kiska was going to go back to leoman only to stab him? especially after she went back to the "fold"

[tiam]

I didnt want her to go back at all. How in gods name did she get back there? It took massive powers to rip into the foundatiion of worlds, the very Shore of Creation itself and the Whorl closes. Then we have Kiska just say 'ill be right back, gonna hit up some elemental planes for a buddy of mine. Shit was jokes'. Ive said this before that ICE is fond of these 'take me to Unta' style epilogues but really this annoyed me.

[Tapper]

I very much agree with Khell up there. Where I differ is on some of the characters, but this book should have had another 100 to 250 pages to properly do justice to the resolution of everything and to spin out more details. It could have been taken from the middle section, perhaps.

The whole fighting style debate is pointless, really. This is a fantasy world and as such fantasy rules are applied, but well, allow me to bite.
For those saying the Seguleh could backpedal: no, not really - you can't do that at speed and you invite isolation. As an outnumbered, maneuverable fighter the last thing you want is total isolation and being mobbed down. A loose line is probably your best bet.
For those who say a phalanx could overrun them: no, not really - they are always slower and such formations tend to break when moving and that would be to the lightly armed, fast duelist's advantage to outflank as long as they can support one another. Secondly, a big shield plus short sword leaves very little room to be offensively capable (and the romans only managed because their formation was quite likely fairly loose as opposed to the shield wall ICE is fond of - yet those loose legions could take on tight phalanxes so there you go - loose can beat tight).

Basically, anvil meets athlete and if neither has a hammer, one is immovable and the other uncatchable. Neither of these sides had anything like an auxiliary unit which is pretty daft. Seguleh should have exploited the Rivi and had their sorceror, the Malazans had ranged weapons (there is mention of crossbows several times, and I can hardly believe that 1 fist and her 15 troopers had all the crossbows and quarrels two legions could muster) but I think ICE ignored this in artistic license to at the least produce the result of the fight that he wanted.

Anyhow, it is safe to say Kiska will be back, probably as a mage, too - Tay mentions she has the talent, Topper wants to employ her and it seems likely she'll either dislike being in the Claw yet again or gets the assignment to go to Jacuruku or where-ever the next novel starts.

This post has been edited by Tapper: 14 February 2012 - 11:07 PM

[Whiskey Bass]

over all i really liked this book.

yes i aggree with alot of the criticisms made by the op and others, i wasnt happy with Kruppe's porttrayal, i thought the Seguleh vs Rhivi, Seguleh vs Malazan battles unbeleivable, and the short pov chapters were too short.

but i enjoyed pretty much everthing else. And in the last 200 pages or so even the 'too short pov's' became a plus.

imo SE maybe the better writer, but ICE can actually exite me more

[MillionSpots]

There are a few things I didn't like, for example K'rul's gender switch (wtf) and Jan and Gall's fight, and Kallor was missing and there was no Torvald-Karsa reunion. Tayschrenn when he got his memory back.
Plus I thought the Tyrant would go down after an awesome fight... but eh.


But I absolutely loved that Aragan was in the book and had a role, and Topper's portrayal was really good, and Spindle's hairshirt really has some use. Antsy was superb, but I wonder why ICE pegged him as the sapper when it was clear in TtH that he had no saboteur experience.
Scorch and Leff were entertaining, and I liked Yusek's PoV.
B&KB were a pleasant surprise.

[Cause]

I hated Scorch and Leff. The characters that took out the Tyrant did so by accident?

How many stupid characters that aren't are there in this series? Women who berate their husbands endlessly but are actually madly in love with them? Bad asses that turn out to be chumps? The twists were surprising and executed well the first time we saw them now they just keep coming and are losing all impact. Watching the Seguleh mirror Rake's and Dassems fight was just empty of any impact.

[the broken]

Quote

Anyhow, it is safe to say Kiska will be back, probably as a mage, too - Tay mentions she has the talent, Topper wants to employ her and it seems likely she'll either dislike being in the Claw yet again or gets the assignment to go to Jacuruku or where-ever the next novel starts.

Maybe. I thought the reason she went back to Leoman was because Topper was recruiting her and 'you can't leave the claw alive', so she went back to where she was safe from imperial assassins.

Quote

you can't do that at speed and you invite isolation

We can't, but we're already stretching what people can and can't do with the Seguleh anyway. Who knows?

Quote

ICE himself in Stone Wielder has a marine mention how the malazans would beat the seguleh. Discipline of thousands will always overcome the individual prowess of a society of individual warriors he says

Another soldier on the same boat says that fifteen thousand Malazans could just about take one fishing village on Seguleh Island. It's a series principle that anyone can kill anyone on any given day.

And one more thing... In ROTCG, Taya is willing to go to extreme lengths to avenge the mother she believes dead, in this book she hates her. Huh?

[tiam]

im 450 pages into a read and Antsy and Jan are ICEs best character by far. Makes me wonder if Antsy was always ICE creation.

[Trull's son]

What an unremarkable ending this book had. Maybe because the story was set in a city where dragon/tyrant/demon destruction is an annual event, but I found that the the climax of this story was just plain weak. I think I was supposed to feel worried that Brood or the Moranth were planning on leveling the city if things didn't work out with the raid, but instead I was looking forward to just such a scenario. That would have been tragedy on the Malaz scale. But at least we get the Kruppe vs. impaled tyrant dance off as the "convergence" of this book.

I liked the Seguleh, although they may have been overpowered (they survived wounds that would have crippled, or killed, Crimson Guard quasi-ascendants).