[worry]

Plus writing is hard.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

polishgenius, on 29 March 2015 - 06:26 AM, said:

It has been pointed out, by John Scalzi and others since, that GRRM doesn't actually write that slowly compared to many other authors. He just writes bigger books.

I was annoyed when Dance came out and was unfinished, but that just means I'd rather he took longer over this one and made sure it is finished.

The problem with that is you've got similar contemporaries like Steven Erikson and Robin Hobb who write comparitive books in size (and I would argue greater in complexity) and do it a damn sight quicker.

I find it difficult to respect him, but as stated above, it wont' stop me buying the next book.

[QuickTidal]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 29 March 2015 - 10:16 AM, said:

polishgenius, on 29 March 2015 - 06:26 AM, said:

It has been pointed out, by John Scalzi and others since, that GRRM doesn't actually write that slowly compared to many other authors. He just writes bigger books.

I was annoyed when Dance came out and was unfinished, but that just means I'd rather he took longer over this one and made sure it is finished.

The problem with that is you've got similar contemporaries like Steven Erikson and Robin Hobb who write comparitive books in size (and I would argue greater in complexity) and do it a damn sight quicker.

I find it difficult to respect him, but as stated above, it wont' stop me buying the next book.

Agreed. I love his work, but as a writer for his day job, you gotta wonder what daily word count he forces himself to push out if it takes 5+ years for one book....while Sanderson (who has three little kids to look after) churns out book after door stopping book on a yearly basis.

Not that I begrudge the guy his time...but now that he's a household name and the show is such a wildfire success...I dunno...his output-per-day must be quite low...which just seems odd.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 29 March 2015 - 11:40 AM

[Andorion]

Anybody else think he doesn't actually know how he is going to finish the series?

[Maark Abbott]

Andorion, on 29 March 2015 - 01:40 PM, said:

Anybody else think he doesn't actually know how he is going to finish the series?

My personal theory has always been "and then the Wall fell and the Others swept over Westeros and everyone got dead".

[QuickTidal]

Andorion, on 29 March 2015 - 01:40 PM, said:

Anybody else think he doesn't actually know how he is going to finish the series?

It has certainly crossed my mind. I think he knows what the last chapter will be...but the getting there perhaps he wings it? Dunno really.

[polishgenius]

QuickTidal, on 29 March 2015 - 11:39 AM, said:

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 29 March 2015 - 10:16 AM, said:

The problem with that is you've got similar contemporaries like Steven Erikson and Robin Hobb who write comparitive books in size (and I would argue greater in complexity) and do it a damn sight quicker.

I find it difficult to respect him, but as stated above, it wont' stop me buying the next book.

Agreed. I love his work, but as a writer for his day job, you gotta wonder what daily word count he forces himself to push out if it takes 5+ years for one book....while Sanderson (who has three little kids to look after) churns out book after door stopping book on a yearly basis.

Not that I begrudge the guy his time...but now that he's a household name and the show is such a wildfire success...I dunno...his output-per-day must be quite low...which just seems odd.

Yeah, but... writing isn't some assembly line process. Some people naturally do it faster than others. And yeah, he does write slow, but not unusually, excessively slow, he just writes bigger books than a lot of authors who write similar.

Sanderson is a bad example because imo he isn't nearly as good a writer as Martin. Erikson is better, but he could have done with more time cleaning up some of the later Malazan books, so, you know. Swings and roundabouts.


It is frustrating, sure it is, but calling lack of respect or calling him a bitch just because he writes slow is bang out of order, imo. Especially since it's fairly evident, despite a lot of bitching about his attitude, that the whole thing causes him a lot of frustration.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

polishgenius, on 29 March 2015 - 03:17 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 29 March 2015 - 11:39 AM, said:

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 29 March 2015 - 10:16 AM, said:

The problem with that is you've got similar contemporaries like Steven Erikson and Robin Hobb who write comparitive books in size (and I would argue greater in complexity) and do it a damn sight quicker.

I find it difficult to respect him, but as stated above, it wont' stop me buying the next book.

Agreed. I love his work, but as a writer for his day job, you gotta wonder what daily word count he forces himself to push out if it takes 5+ years for one book....while Sanderson (who has three little kids to look after) churns out book after door stopping book on a yearly basis.

Not that I begrudge the guy his time...but now that he's a household name and the show is such a wildfire success...I dunno...his output-per-day must be quite low...which just seems odd.

Yeah, but... writing isn't some assembly line process. Some people naturally do it faster than others. And yeah, he does write slow, but not unusually, excessively slow, he just writes bigger books than a lot of authors who write similar.

Sanderson is a bad example because imo he isn't nearly as good a writer as Martin. Erikson is better, but he could have done with more time cleaning up some of the later Malazan books, so, you know. Swings and roundabouts.


It is frustrating, sure it is, but calling lack of respect or calling him a bitch just because he writes slow is bang out of order, imo. Especially since it's fairly evident, despite a lot of bitching about his attitude, that the whole thing causes him a lot of frustration.

I should probably clarify my lack of respect is more to do with his general attitude and things he says than it is to do with his slow writing - although admittedly that's pretty frustrating. Particularly when the finished product is something like A Dance with Dragons.

It's more the interviews where he starts rambling on that he could tell Tolkien's story better than him ("Gandalf coming back was cheap" - he's not mortal, you moron) ("What about the tax system in Aragorn's kingdom?" - I don't care, and this bitching doesn't make your story better) that I just find a bit disrespectful - not because it's Tolkien, but whoever it might have been about. He has contemporaries who are much better than him at certain aspects of fantasy storytelling, I don't see them bitching that they could handle A Song of Ice and Fire better than Martin.

[Ceda Cicero]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 29 March 2015 - 04:29 PM, said:

polishgenius, on 29 March 2015 - 03:17 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 29 March 2015 - 11:39 AM, said:

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 29 March 2015 - 10:16 AM, said:

The problem with that is you've got similar contemporaries like Steven Erikson and Robin Hobb who write comparitive books in size (and I would argue greater in complexity) and do it a damn sight quicker.

I find it difficult to respect him, but as stated above, it wont' stop me buying the next book.

Agreed. I love his work, but as a writer for his day job, you gotta wonder what daily word count he forces himself to push out if it takes 5+ years for one book....while Sanderson (who has three little kids to look after) churns out book after door stopping book on a yearly basis.

Not that I begrudge the guy his time...but now that he's a household name and the show is such a wildfire success...I dunno...his output-per-day must be quite low...which just seems odd.

Yeah, but... writing isn't some assembly line process. Some people naturally do it faster than others. And yeah, he does write slow, but not unusually, excessively slow, he just writes bigger books than a lot of authors who write similar.

Sanderson is a bad example because imo he isn't nearly as good a writer as Martin. Erikson is better, but he could have done with more time cleaning up some of the later Malazan books, so, you know. Swings and roundabouts.


It is frustrating, sure it is, but calling lack of respect or calling him a bitch just because he writes slow is bang out of order, imo. Especially since it's fairly evident, despite a lot of bitching about his attitude, that the whole thing causes him a lot of frustration.

I should probably clarify my lack of respect is more to do with his general attitude and things he says than it is to do with his slow writing - although admittedly that's pretty frustrating. Particularly when the finished product is something like A Dance with Dragons.

It's more the interviews where he starts rambling on that he could tell Tolkien's story better than him ("Gandalf coming back was cheap" - he's not mortal, you moron) ("What about the tax system in Aragorn's kingdom?" - I don't care, and this bitching doesn't make your story better) that I just find a bit disrespectful - not because it's Tolkien, but whoever it might have been about. He has contemporaries who are much better than him at certain aspects of fantasy storytelling, I don't see them bitching that they could handle A Song of Ice and Fire better than Martin.

This.

It's his general attitude that I find bitchy; I don't think the delays between books alone suffice to qualify him as a bitch. But the tone on his NOT A BLOG just rubs me the wrong way all over.

Some examples: when he first announced he was canceling two appearances his general tone was just so whiney and begrudging, like he was being forced to go to detention instead of recess by an evil teacher rather than skipping just a bare handful of appearances to work on his bestselling novel that's going to net him untold amounts of cash. He even copped to this somewhat in the comments on that post--someone pointed out politely that most people would kill to have problems like Martin's, to which he agreed he probably needed to put things in perspective a bit more.

And while it's irritating that a few news outlets lacking credibility went over the top with that announcement, posting headlines about GRRM cancelling all appearances, or implying that the cancellations meant tWoW was near, his reaction to that is also bitchy, IMO. Yes, George, it does blow that people misinterpret your words or read into them and find tWoW progress hints that aren't there, and it does blow that this information gets disseminated rapidly and broadly because of your massive fame. But pardon me if I don't empathize with you overly much for having to learn how to navigate increased scrutiny and pressure due to your talent and success.

[champ]

He has obviously had his problems writing the books - well documented - and getting his thoughts assembled into the story he wants,...

Could be thinking fuck it, why not let the TV show get there first and he can follow their path to his end, certainly makes his life easier!

[amphibian]

What if he genuinely enjoys going to conventions and the other appearances that he is canceling? That's a tough choice to make in pursuit of a complete set of books that he can and probably will finish on his own time.

It's his life and his pace.

I've said this many times before and I'll say it again - I genuinely hope the show and the book diverge from each other in terms of endings.

I also think that he's right about Tolkien not being particularly good.

And my last opinion: I think he should take an extra book to finish - especially after the introduction of Griff & Co.

[QuickTidal]

amphibian, on 29 March 2015 - 07:39 PM, said:

I've said this many times before and I'll say it again - I genuinely hope the show and the book diverge from each other in terms of endings.

I can't recall where I read it, but apparently they will not diverge all that much, and the ending will be the same. I've heard the various branching paths may differ slightly (no Jeyne Pool-type changes) and the show will speed up some longer plotlines from the books. But I seriously doubt they will diverge much. Why would they? What would be the point?

[Tiste Simeon]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 29 March 2015 - 04:29 PM, said:

polishgenius, on 29 March 2015 - 03:17 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 29 March 2015 - 11:39 AM, said:

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 29 March 2015 - 10:16 AM, said:

The problem with that is you've got similar contemporaries like Steven Erikson and Robin Hobb who write comparitive books in size (and I would argue greater in complexity) and do it a damn sight quicker.

I find it difficult to respect him, but as stated above, it wont' stop me buying the next book.

Agreed. I love his work, but as a writer for his day job, you gotta wonder what daily word count he forces himself to push out if it takes 5+ years for one book....while Sanderson (who has three little kids to look after) churns out book after door stopping book on a yearly basis.

Not that I begrudge the guy his time...but now that he's a household name and the show is such a wildfire success...I dunno...his output-per-day must be quite low...which just seems odd.

Yeah, but... writing isn't some assembly line process. Some people naturally do it faster than others. And yeah, he does write slow, but not unusually, excessively slow, he just writes bigger books than a lot of authors who write similar.

Sanderson is a bad example because imo he isn't nearly as good a writer as Martin. Erikson is better, but he could have done with more time cleaning up some of the later Malazan books, so, you know. Swings and roundabouts.


It is frustrating, sure it is, but calling lack of respect or calling him a bitch just because he writes slow is bang out of order, imo. Especially since it's fairly evident, despite a lot of bitching about his attitude, that the whole thing causes him a lot of frustration.

I should probably clarify my lack of respect is more to do with his general attitude and things he says than it is to do with his slow writing - although admittedly that's pretty frustrating. Particularly when the finished product is something like A Dance with Dragons.

It's more the interviews where he starts rambling on that he could tell Tolkien's story better than him ("Gandalf coming back was cheap" - he's not mortal, you moron) ("What about the tax system in Aragorn's kingdom?" - I don't care, and this bitching doesn't make your story better) that I just find a bit disrespectful - not because it's Tolkien, but whoever it might have been about. He has contemporaries who are much better than him at certain aspects of fantasy storytelling, I don't see them bitching that they could handle A Song of Ice and Fire better than Martin.

Petition to have Erikson write the rest of ASOIAF? Anybody? He could write it better and quicker.

[amphibian]

QuickTidal, on 29 March 2015 - 07:59 PM, said:

But I seriously doubt they will diverge much. Why would they? What would be the point?

To have two valid endings to a very popular story is an unusual thing. Such a move would be the most creative thing possible with the show and it would also be the most permissive of artistic freedom, emphasizing the difference of the TV show from the books, rather than the simple porting of one over to the other.

[polishgenius]

Scott Pilgrim ends quite different to the comics, for much the same reason aSoIaF might- because while the film was being made, the last comic wasn't out yet, and O'Malley gave them a rough outline but not the whole plot. Edgar Wright did however hurriedly rehash the very ending because he was clearly going to go in a different direction before O'Malley finally decided what he was going to do - and it really shows.

This post has been edited by polishgenius: 29 March 2015 - 08:55 PM

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

amphibian, on 29 March 2015 - 07:39 PM, said:

I also think that he's right about Tolkien not being particularly good.

See, if he'd just said "I don't think Tolkien's anything to write home about" then that'd be fine and dandy, whether I agree with him or not. Again it comes down to tone (but then, given I read a version of the interview in a newspaper article, that can be edited) - it read very much like "But look at all these things I thought of that Tolkien didn't!" as if someone was going to run over and give him a cookie for doing his homework properly.

Firstly, I think it's bloody rude. A Game of Thrones came out in 1997 - 40 years or so after The Lord of the Rings. The genre has moved forward and reacted (for want of a better term) to the likes of Tolkien's highest-of-the-high fantasy since then. I could be barking up the wrong tree entirely, but I feel like it's just not a relevant comparison. Also, as I said, plenty of people do the elements of fantasy storytelling he was whining that Tolkien didn't have better than Martin himself - none of them are bitching in interviews about how much better they could have done with the ASOIAF story.

Secondly - and this is entirely a pet peeve of mine - if you're going to criticise something, make sure you get your facts straight before you go criticising it. The Gandalf comment is rendered entirely redundant once you know the background of Silmarillion - or at least in my view.

Also - I agree with the comment above about the tone of Not a Blog - and I stopped reading it a couple of years ago for exactly that reason. He became a bit "keyboard warrior" at times and I just felt he needed to take a step back and think a little.

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 29 March 2015 - 09:19 PM

[Andorion]

I think the problem is the fame and the exposure. The fans are going to get spoiled by the TV series. I have boycotted all aspects of GoT and I still get spoiled by simply existing and accessing the internet. Quite naturally there is a increasingly vocal outcry for the next book or at least a status update. I mean Scott Lynch is taking four years to write a way shorter boo and nobody is jumping up and down on him. Mostly because his audience is 5% that of GRRM.

And as for the Tolkien comments, I am sick and tired of everybody taking on Tolkien. How seriously would we take it if Ferrari said now in 2015, "We can make a far better car than the Model T"? And as stated upthread, an attempt to at least stay somewhat familiar with the Tolkien Canon would have been nice.

And if Erikson wrote the series.....well it would have been done already.

[amphibian]

Andorion, on 30 March 2015 - 02:15 AM, said:

And as for the Tolkien comments, I am sick and tired of everybody taking on Tolkien. How seriously would we take it if Ferrari said now in 2015, "We can make a far better car than the Model T"? And as stated upthread, an attempt to at least stay somewhat familiar with the Tolkien Canon would have been nice.

Nah. Tolkien doesn't get a pass on his exclusionist legacy/clunky prose and occasional dead/not dead hijinks with the characters for writing his books in the early 20th century.

For more serious talk on Tolkien, see this nearly 3 year old thread: http://forum.malazan...ction-and-race/

One last note: I really miss Terez as a full time forumite.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 30 March 2015 - 03:36 AM

[Andorion]

amphibian, on 30 March 2015 - 03:19 AM, said:

Andorion, on 30 March 2015 - 02:15 AM, said:

And as for the Tolkien comments, I am sick and tired of everybody taking on Tolkien. How seriously would we take it if Ferrari said now in 2015, "We can make a far better car than the Model T"? And as stated upthread, an attempt to at least stay somewhat familiar with the Tolkien Canon would have been nice.

Nah. Tolkien doesn't get a pass on his exclusionist legacy/clunky prose and occasionally flat characters for writing his books in the early 20th century.

For more serious talk on Tolkien, see this nearly 3 year old thread: http://forum.malazan...ction-and-race/

One last note: I really miss Terez as a full time forumite.

OK I skimmed that thread a bit. What struck me was that Tolkien never hit me like this when I first read him ( I was 16) or even in subsequent rereads. Actually I tend to visualize everything I read in my own way, so Aragorn's original description - the scruffy traveller Strider was the one that stuck with me thoughout. I actually visualized the Elves as this uber-white people (and remember being extremely annoyed at th econstant references to their passing away in the West. If you are so cool, stay and fight) I visualised the humans as sort of ....I don't know mixed race maybe? And strangely enough, I was never really into Aragorn or interested in his story. It was the Rohirrim and their insane cavalry charges, Pippin and Merry's crazy antics and Eowyn. Always Eowyn. From a side character to slayer of the Witch King...I just loved that part. And of course Sam.

You see, I went into LotR from a book diet of Agatha Christie, so I had no trouble seeing the Shire as the imaginary English countryside, Frodo as the adventourous Englsih country squire on an adventure, and Sam as rock-steady ever-reliable family servant. These are very old English tropes, which I think Tolkien actually subverted a bit.

And why shouldn't we read Tolkien in the context of the early 20th century? Thats the time he wrote in. Thats his intellectual world. It would have been extraordinary if he had written a world with equal races and sexes. I have studied the history of British colonialsim and the horrible ideology of race and gender it imposed on India. I do not expect an Englishman of that time to transcend that society and culture.

Tolkien was a apioneer. Pioneers are never perfect. It doesn't mean we should subject them to unwaranted criticism

[worry]

That's why we subject them to warranted criticism. It's not about ignoring the context. I'm comfortable evaluating the context as much as the man. I like Narnia fine too (except Santa Claus), but I am disgusted with C.S. Lewis's treatment of Susan in The Last Battle as well as the context that shaped his condemnation of her.