[twelve]

Hope my last post helps clear up the fact that I do not have a death wish and I do want to win.

[twelve]

I also welcome a find on me as it will remove any suspicion players might have of me being scum and it won't use a kill.

[twelve]

Path-Shaper, on 12 July 2011 - 05:22 PM, said:

Meng Huo will randomly incite one player to rebel at the beginning of the game (this player remains their current role and also is Meng Huo). That player will designate a successor. When the Meng Huo player is eliminated, the successor will become the new rebel and Meng Huo and will designate their own successor. And so on, until one faction wins.

My reading comprehension sucks. I read this as first there being 1 Meng Huo and a successor who will only become Meng Huo should Meng Huo is killed. Now I think there are 2 Meng Huos in the game right now and will always be 2 Meng Huos with a third player designated as a successor who is still town until he becomes a rebel and Meng Huo.

[Roldom]

everytime we get a finderkill it will make all previous lynch train information useless

I said before i think it makes more sense for our finders to reveal and narrow down our options

[Kurt Montandon]

Roldom, on 14 July 2011 - 05:31 PM, said:

I said before i think it makes more sense for our finders to reveal and narrow down our options

And maybe even lure out a fake reveal in the process ...

[ansible]

twelve, on 14 July 2011 - 05:07 PM, said:

People have mentioned that this game is balanced too much in favor of town. I disagree. I think it is more balance in favor of scum. Even with two finders with 3 kills total. If it was 6 finder/kills total then I would agree. Scum would have no chance.

The reason I think it's balanced in favor of scum is this. You have to kill him 6 times. Town (baring something catastrophic) will get 3 freebies so we only need to lynch scum 3 times. As I mentioned before there can only be 5 wrong lynches before it becomes mathmatically impossible for town to win. It may be 6 wrong lynches but there has to be one general and one scum at the very end and I'm not sure if the mechanics allow that possibility. So to lynch players just to get information doesn't make sense because you will require too many lnyches to get information and then you would have to start all over when Meng Huo's recruit becomes Meng Huo.

I think I'm talking myself back into a night vote.

We need to use the finders finds to narrow the lynch pools so we are not wasting as much time lynching people to find scum. We need a smaller pool to start with.

remove vote

voting myself out actually hurts town. I strongly suggest that the finders reveal themselves. That gives us two fewer suspects to look at and hopefully they have cleared two other people. I also suggest that we vote for night so the finders can clear two more people. That would halve the suspect pool but not likely use a kill. At that point I think we should start lynching players in the remaining pool and have the finders not waste their finds. After two failed lynches then we should have the finders use a kill to take out Meng Huo and repeat the process.

It's a systematic approach that balances the need for town to use finds and lynches but still gives Meng Huo a good chance to win because it is still hard for town to get it right in the limited number of chances we have to lynch correctly.

I need more time to think about this, but I agree about the odds not being stacked against scum. It won't be easy for town to win. What happens when three people claim finder? Now instead of being sure about 2 players, we aren't sure about anyone. With no way to confirm who was targeted for a find other than a MH kill, there's no way to prove someone isn't just a symp fake revealing.

Second, as soon as ANY MH player dies, all prior people who might have been cleared by a find are now suspects again. Do you see what I mean? Let's just say for example that the finders are able to reveal and they agree to find two people and everyone votes night. If one of the finds actually hits an MH, the other find is now worthless because that player could have been designated as the successor. If the finds don't hit MH, and we use that info to choose a lynch target who hasn't been cleared, we might go through any number of these cycles until an MH dies and all gathered information is now reset and worthless. I just don't think this is a good way to go about things. What happens if the finders "accidentally" use up their kills by targeting MH? Now we have no more finders (who have become RI) and all results of any find are worthless... and if we don't lynch MH the game is over and scum win.

[twelve]

Not necessary if there are two Meng Huo's out there. I also thinking having two out ther makes the balance between town and scum a lot more even.

[Gust Hubb]

Agreed. Finders, please announce yourselves (there do not appear to be any killers so you should be safe!)

[twelve]

ansible, on 14 July 2011 - 05:38 PM, said:

twelve, on 14 July 2011 - 05:07 PM, said:

People have mentioned that this game is balanced too much in favor of town. I disagree. I think it is more balance in favor of scum. Even with two finders with 3 kills total. If it was 6 finder/kills total then I would agree. Scum would have no chance.

The reason I think it's balanced in favor of scum is this. You have to kill him 6 times. Town (baring something catastrophic) will get 3 freebies so we only need to lynch scum 3 times. As I mentioned before there can only be 5 wrong lynches before it becomes mathmatically impossible for town to win. It may be 6 wrong lynches but there has to be one general and one scum at the very end and I'm not sure if the mechanics allow that possibility. So to lynch players just to get information doesn't make sense because you will require too many lnyches to get information and then you would have to start all over when Meng Huo's recruit becomes Meng Huo.

I think I'm talking myself back into a night vote.

We need to use the finders finds to narrow the lynch pools so we are not wasting as much time lynching people to find scum. We need a smaller pool to start with.

remove vote

voting myself out actually hurts town. I strongly suggest that the finders reveal themselves. That gives us two fewer suspects to look at and hopefully they have cleared two other people. I also suggest that we vote for night so the finders can clear two more people. That would halve the suspect pool but not likely use a kill. At that point I think we should start lynching players in the remaining pool and have the finders not waste their finds. After two failed lynches then we should have the finders use a kill to take out Meng Huo and repeat the process.

It's a systematic approach that balances the need for town to use finds and lynches but still gives Meng Huo a good chance to win because it is still hard for town to get it right in the limited number of chances we have to lynch correctly.

I need more time to think about this, but I agree about the odds not being stacked against scum. It won't be easy for town to win. What happens when three people claim finder? Now instead of being sure about 2 players, we aren't sure about anyone. With no way to confirm who was targeted for a find other than a MH kill, there's no way to prove someone isn't just a symp fake revealing.

Second, as soon as ANY MH player dies, all prior people who might have been cleared by a find are now suspects again. Do you see what I mean? Let's just say for example that the finders are able to reveal and they agree to find two people and everyone votes night. If one of the finds actually hits an MH, the other find is now worthless because that player could have been designated as the successor. If the finds don't hit MH, and we use that info to choose a lynch target who hasn't been cleared, we might go through any number of these cycles until an MH dies and all gathered information is now reset and worthless. I just don't think this is a good way to go about things. What happens if the finders "accidentally" use up their kills by targeting MH? Now we have no more finders (who have become RI) and all results of any find are worthless... and if we don't lynch MH the game is over and scum win.

The way I see it is, as someone suggested earlier, is to vote night and have them each do finds on the other. The fake reveal would only work once and then the other two players would be known to be town until all the kills have been used up.

As for your second part you are spot on with your assessments. As for accidentially using up all the kills that is a definate possibility but I think is a risk that needs to be taken. If you have a better strategy please share it because no matter which strategy you choose the info you gathered will be obsolete as soon as a Meng Huo is killed. It's the nature of the beast.

[Kurt Montandon]

twelve, on 14 July 2011 - 05:52 PM, said:

The way I see it is, as someone suggested earlier, is to vote night and have them each do finds on the other. The fake reveal would only work once and then the other two players would be known to be town until all the kills have been used up.

The problem is that if they hit a symp doing a fake reveal - I'm reading the setup as meaning only MH himself will be killed by a Find.

So if we come back the next day, and our three reveals are all pointing fingers at each other ... we won't know which one is lying.

[Khellendros]

twelve, on 14 July 2011 - 05:29 PM, said:

Path-Shaper, on 12 July 2011 - 05:22 PM, said:

Meng Huo will randomly incite one player to rebel at the beginning of the game (this player remains their current role and also is Meng Huo). That player will designate a successor. When the Meng Huo player is eliminated, the successor will become the new rebel and Meng Huo and will designate their own successor. And so on, until one faction wins.

My reading comprehension sucks. I read this as first there being 1 Meng Huo and a successor who will only become Meng Huo should Meng Huo is killed. Now I think there are 2 Meng Huos in the game right now and will always be 2 Meng Huos with a third player designated as a successor who is still town until he becomes a rebel and Meng Huo.

It's not your reading comprehension, twelve, this is a very convoluted, potentially confusing sentence. I don't know if Path-Shaper did that deliberately or not, but I've been having trouble with it too. At first I thought it only referred to two people - Meng Huo and a successor, but now I think there's three:

There is: Meng Huo ->> Rebel(next future proper Meng Huo) ->> Successor.

Thus, there are, I believe, two scum: MH and the rebel. The successor does not know that they've been chosen. If we kill MH, the rebel/Meng Huo becomes simply Meng Huo, and the successor becomes the rebel/Meng Huo. It's that dual identity that P-S gives them that confuses things.

[Khellendros]

Thus, if we ask finders to reveal, the rebel could also pretend to be a finder, as an investigation might not reveal them as MH. And if they're lynched, then I assume the successor becomes the rebel and thus another symp is born.

[Khellendros]

Lots of thuses in those last two posts.

[Gust Hubb]

OK, well, I am not a finder. So you will never have to listen to me wax eloquent about who is what. That's one down peeps.

[twelve]

No. I think it's my comprehension. When I read it over a few times it is now obvious that there is the original Meng Huo and one other rebel who was themselves and also Meng Huo. If both players fake reveal as finders then I think the finder/kills will kill both of them. The original and the rebel who is also Meng Huo too.

What do you say finders? You going to show yourself?

[twelve]

I am also not a finder.

my ability was stated earlier. I get to look under my ugly elephants mask.

[Khellendros]

So you think there's two MHs and no symp? I dunno, that seems a bit too easy for town again - suddenly our chances of killing MH are doubled.

[Roldom]

i am not a finder either

[twelve]

Khellendros, on 14 July 2011 - 06:15 PM, said:

So you think there's two MHs and no symp? I dunno, that seems a bit too easy for town again - suddenly our chances of killing MH are doubled.

Yes I do think there are two MHs and no symp.

[Khellendros]

I really don't know about that, it makes it twice as likely that we'll hit an MH, and so halve the difficulty of the game for the town. I still think only one person at a time can be identified by the finders as MH.