[amphibian]

Putting in my two cents here.

Terez, on 26 April 2012 - 04:37 AM, said:

It just means that I have a reason for writing in what you perceive to be a condescending tone (it's not intended that way; it's specifically in response to the way Tattersail has approached me thus far). My opinions are informed by years of reading WoT, thinking about it more than most things, reading everything that RJ had to say about it outside the books (including his comments on themes), and Brandon, and everyone else associated with WoT. I believe I know a little bit more about how RJ's brain worked than most people who didn't know him personally (and unfortunately most people who knew him personally don't know WoT near as well as I do).

For sure, you've got the knowledge and it's phenomenal that you've found something that fires your passions so much and continues to reward your work and time. However, you have a uniquely odd writing style that can come off to the unintiated or those unused to it a bit as a bit of a haughty "I know this and I'm going to explain this to you".

You like an Aes Sedai at times, girl.

[QuickTidal]

amphibian, on 26 April 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

Putting in my two cents here.

Terez, on 26 April 2012 - 04:37 AM, said:

It just means that I have a reason for writing in what you perceive to be a condescending tone (it's not intended that way; it's specifically in response to the way Tattersail has approached me thus far). My opinions are informed by years of reading WoT, thinking about it more than most things, reading everything that RJ had to say about it outside the books (including his comments on themes), and Brandon, and everyone else associated with WoT. I believe I know a little bit more about how RJ's brain worked than most people who didn't know him personally (and unfortunately most people who knew him personally don't know WoT near as well as I do).

For sure, you've got the knowledge and it's phenomenal that you've found something that fires your passions so much and continues to reward your work and time. However, you have a uniquely odd writing style that can come off to the unintiated or those unused to it a bit as a bit of a haughty "I know this and I'm going to explain this to you".

You like an Aes Sedai at times, girl.

Apmh says it much nicer and more succinct than I ever could.

Have rep.

@Tattersail. Sorry for derailing your thread a bit. My bad.

[Terez]

QuickTidal, on 26 April 2012 - 01:31 PM, said:

I attempted to send you a PM with a quasi-olive branch (AKA explaining myself without the anger)...but it won't allow it (maybe you need to empty your inbox). Whatever. I can do it here.

Except that we were asked by an 'admin' to play nice, and you're still going on about it. I stopped caring about your opinion yesterday, so no need to bother.

[Terez]

Tattersail, on 26 April 2012 - 02:35 PM, said:

Terez, Nicola's foretelling when they link in Salidar for the first time. I haven't got it right now but do you know the one I mean? The guy with the dagger I want to know about or is this still to come?

The second question first: Rand thought this referred to a Gray Man, and there was indeed a Gray Man who showed up not much later (the one that Taim killed when he showed up impromptu on the balcony). There is some debate in the fandom as to whether or not the Gray Man was the actual fulfillment (if Sorilea is a Darkfriend, she could have passed on those dreams to the Dark, and they might have sent the Gray Man to distract Rand from the true meaning of the prophecy). Many think it actually refers to Taim. Some have made other arguments, like that it's Bashere, but if it's not the Gray Man then it's probably Taim himself.

The Nicola Foretelling probably tells us more about the circumstances surrounding Rand's death than any other prophecy. The question is, how much do you want to know about it? Here's the wording:

Nicola said:

"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."

It's definitely a nod to Arthur legend, which leads a lot of people astray, I think. The story won't end with his death, so he's not going to go off to Tar Valon to be Healed on a boat.The 'return' refers to the Seanchan, and the guardians and servants are the Asha'man and Aes Sedai, in case that wasn't clear. There is some debate as to whether 'great battle' actually refers to the Last Battle, essentially because it's not likely that Rand has actually finished the job at this point, so in that case the Last Battle would not be 'done'. The future still teeters on the edge of a blade, and presumably Rand is somehow important in that context.

[Illuyankas]

Seems to be saying post Last Battle the world is in disarray after most of their ruling figures - aka Rand - are dead and the home nations and Seanchan are going batshit invading each other and causing all sorts of nonsense that will only be solved rendered recoverable by Rand's return, orchestrated by his harem but challenged by some blade-based menace! Which is probably Padan Fain at this point assuming he hasn't played a conclusive part in the Last Battle.

Basically somebody page Miracle Max, he'll be only mostly dead.

[Terez]

Illuyankas, on 27 April 2012 - 02:47 AM, said:

Seems to be saying post Last Battle the world is in disarray after most of their ruling figures - aka Rand - are dead and the home nations and Seanchan are going batshit invading each other and causing all sorts of nonsense that will only be solved rendered recoverable by Rand's return

A couple of problems with that. For one, the two must be 'as one' for Rand to have any hope of winning the Last Battle in the first place. In the future that Aviendha saw, when the Last Battle was done, there was no more fighting because the Peace had been Rand's price for going to Shayol Ghul. That's not to say it will happen that way in the real future, since undeniably Aviendha is going to change things. Some have argued that Rand will make a temporary truce with them to fight the Last Battle and that they'll go back to fighting after that, but there are a few things that don't seem right about it, not least that Rand shouldn't technically be required to solve every problem. Another issue is that the struggles with the Seanchan don't seem severe enough to say that 'the future teeters on the edge of a blade'. It's just the ordinary fighting between nations isn't it?

Theoretically, it's possible that the Shadowspawn will retreat when Rand dies, thinking it's all over, and that in that sense the Last Battle is 'done' at the point of his death, but the implication is that the Bore hasn't been sealed yet, which is Rand's main task (or at least, it's the ultimate goal in the battle against the Dark One). It also fits with what the Aelfinn said - that to survive the Last Battle, he has to die. There's an implication there that he has to die before he's finished the job. Also, there has to be some sort of reason for him to die, and it makes a lot of sense that he would have to die to sever the connection between himself and Moridin, or for some other reason relating to the concept of Dark Rand, which is certainly still lurking beneath the surface. There's also quite a bit of foreshadowing for that - killing Rand to prevent him from turning to the Shadow, or being turned (Egwene's Accepted test, etc.) So if that's the reason why he has to die, then it probably has implications for his ability to finish the job properly.

[QuickTidal]

Terez, on 27 April 2012 - 02:59 AM, said:

A couple of problems with that. For one, the two must be 'as one' for Rand to have any hope of winning the Last Battle in the first place.

You assume that winning equals living. It does not.

Quote

In the future that Aviendha saw, when the Last Battle was done, there was no more fighting because the Peace had been Rand's price for going to Shayol Ghul.

I just reread those chapters in ToM and nowhere does Rand give the Dragon's Peace as a "cost" of him going to Shayol Ghul. It's clear he decided for peace afterwards, but there is nothing to indicate he chose that before going in the future visions, or that it was some petty "I'll only go if..." price. That's projecting on your part.

Quote

That's not to say it will happen that way in the real future, since undeniably Aviendha is going to change things.

Absolutes don't really belong in a series where it is claimed (by you) that Jordan isn't predictable. Isn't Aviendha changing things, just a little too trite? I think it is. that's too easy. Rand and certainly the Aiel don't get off that easy...or they shouldn't. I'm not saying they should get to Malidra, grovelling for dirty meat in the Wastes, but a portion of that prophecy needs to come true to be realistic...since I'm sorry...NO ONE... not even the Dragon Reborn's kids can reign in an entire warrior race...The Shaido are an example of the strife that one clan can cause when they disagree. Unless Rand wipes the Seanchan from the face of the planet...the Aiel are going to rebel.

Quote

Theoretically, it's possible that the Shadowspawn will retreat when Rand dies, thinking it's all over, and that in that sense the Last Battle is 'done' at the point of his death, but the implication is that the Bore hasn't been sealed yet, which is Rand's main task (or at least, it's the ultimate goal in the battle against the Dark One).

Sorry, so the shadowspawn only exist to fight and battle when the Dark One can manipulate them? So, you posit that Trollocs and Fades will just go and live life on the farm in the blight then aftewards, or disappear? Their leader is gone (or weak) and they simply...what? live in the hills and raise kids? Yeah, I don't buy that.

Quote

It also fits with what the Aelfinn said - that to survive the Last Battle, he has to die.

Said the creatures who speak in riddles and lies. right.

[Macros]

I thought everyone knew how the WoT ends

Spoilers abound, you have been warned.

The dark one rises, sees aes seadai egery begins weeping inconsolably.
Then he and rand team up and melt them all.
They split the world as the dark one is just misunderstood, he just wanted some land for his trollocs to live on, and the bight was a miscalculation on his part.
Then they join hands for a hands across the world.
Then rand has that orgy he's been waiting on

[Terez]

QuickTidal, on 27 April 2012 - 03:32 AM, said:

Terez, on 27 April 2012 - 02:59 AM, said:

A couple of problems with that. For one, the two must be 'as one' for Rand to have any hope of winning the Last Battle in the first place.

You assume that winning equals living. It does not.

No, I assume that winning equals winning. You seem to have reading comprehension issues.

QuickTidal, on 27 April 2012 - 03:32 AM, said:

Quote

In the future that Aviendha saw, when the Last Battle was done, there was no more fighting because the Peace had been Rand's price for going to Shayol Ghul.

I just reread those chapters in ToM and nowhere does Rand give the Dragon's Peace as a "cost" of him going to Shayol Ghul.

You're looking in the wrong place. Try his POV.

QuickTidal, on 27 April 2012 - 03:32 AM, said:

I don't buy that.

No one cares.

QuickTidal, on 27 April 2012 - 03:32 AM, said:

Quote

It also fits with what the Aelfinn said - that to survive the Last Battle, he has to die.

Said the creatures who speak in riddles and lies. right.

The answers they give are always true, and this one wasn't a riddle. It was straightforward, and it fits with the other prophecies we have on the subject.

[QuickTidal]

Terez, on 27 April 2012 - 05:37 AM, said:

No, I assume that winning equals winning. You seem to have reading comprehension issues.

Wordplay? I'm not going to spell it out further.

Quote

In the future that Aviendha saw, when the Last Battle was done, there was no more fighting because the Peace had been Rand's price for going to Shayol Ghul.

You weren't speaking about his POV...check you own words (bolded for ease of memory ). If you'd like to construct a sentence where Aviendha ISN'T the subject, then I'll allow for it.

Quote

No one cares.

Sorry, but I was joining in the actual conversation like Tattersail asked me to. So I'd wager Tattersail cares.

Quote

It also fits with what the Aelfinn said - that to survive the Last Battle, he has to die.

Quote

Said the creatures who speak in riddles and lies. right.

Quote

The answers they give are always true, and this one wasn't a riddle. It was straightforward, and it fits with the other prophecies we have on the subject.

disagree.

[Terez]

QuickTidal, on 27 April 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

Terez, on 27 April 2012 - 05:37 AM, said:

No, I assume that winning equals winning. You seem to have reading comprehension issues.

Wordplay? I'm not going to spell it out further.

lol. Nice try, but I think it's probably clear to everyone else that I never equated winning with living. Again, go back and read my post. Maybe you'll understand it this time.

[QuickTidal]

I'm speaking of the "two must be as one" in conjunction with winning.

You totally assume that you KNOW what that prophecy line means. You don't. No one does. And yet your statement implies that you do.

You have a guess. At best.

I'm saying that winning can equal death if the prophecy isn't read how you seem to be reading it...that's it. I'm contesting the presumption that you know the outcome of a prophecy prior to the event happening. You don't.

[Terez]

QuickTidal, on 27 April 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

I'm speaking of the "two must be as one" in conjunction with winning.

You totally assume that you KNOW what that prophecy line means. You don't. No one does. And yet your statement implies that you do.

You have a guess. At best.

Not hardly. But regardless, none of that has anything to do with me equating winning with living, because I never did any such thing. You just dreamed that little detail up all on your own, apparently because you're in the trolling mood.

[Silencer]

Terez, on 26 April 2012 - 09:22 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 26 April 2012 - 01:31 PM, said:

I attempted to send you a PM with a quasi-olive branch (AKA explaining myself without the anger)...but it won't allow it (maybe you need to empty your inbox). Whatever. I can do it here.

Except that we were asked by an 'admin' to play nice, and you're still going on about it. I stopped caring about your opinion yesterday, so no need to bother.

ENOUGH. I can't believe I'm having to explain this one to you guys again - if someone ELSE ignores an admin warning and continues an argument, you DO NOT RESPOND TO THEM. This isn't some playground BS where we can't tell who did what first, nor is it an actual fight where not fighting back means you get beaten to a pulp. If what QT is doing is trolling, then what you're doing Terez is called 'feeding the troll' - and thus you're both fucking guilty. Even going by the actual two arguments you two have had, you're both being dicks. Now lay off. Both of you. If that means you have to walk away from the forum for a day, do it, and come back relaxed and ready to talk over the SUBJECT without the personal remarks. Got that?

[Macros]

spoilsport

[Terez]

I really hate that particular approach by the way. I ignored him for a good 24 hours while he continued to troll me and no one did anything about it. As for the subject, that's what I'm here for.

[amphibian]

This is possibly a question WoT fans cannot answer, but why did Jordan go for three women to bind to Rand when the one on one romantic dynamic is pretty heavily emphasized elsewhere? Is it to further emphasize Rand's specialness and perhaps to show his virility/strength? Or did he just find it easier to smoosh the potential others that two of the women would link to into Rand?

Is it a pro-poly relationship thing? Was Jordan into that in his own life?

This post has been edited by amphibian: 27 April 2012 - 09:26 PM

[Terez]

amphibian, on 27 April 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

This is possibly a question WoT fans cannot answer, but why did Jordan go for three women to bind to Rand when the one on one romantic dynamic is pretty heavily emphasized elsewhere? Is it to further emphasize Rand's specialness and perhaps to show his virility/strength? Or did he just find it easier to smoosh the potential others that two of the women would link to into Rand?

Is it a pro-poly relationship thing? Was Jordan into that in his own life?

lol. It's a good question really. There are some reasons that are, from my immersion level anyway, obvious in relation to what we were discussing on that other thread—that is, the One Story aspect of WoT, where he's trying to tell all the legends at once (as Tolkien did, limited to British lore). He needed a triple-goddess of sorts to knock out multiple legends at once—Arthur, Perun, etc.—and making them the 'wives' of the messiah figure is a really convenient way to make them important to the story. There is, of course, some precedent for this in the real world, and he used it sparingly, mostly only with the Aiel and the Green Ajah. And Rand. With the Aiel it makes a great deal of sense because of the difficulty of survival in the Waste. For the Greens, theoretically they're supposed to be the Battle Ajah, so it makes sense for them to have more protectors, and why not with benefits? With Rand, RJ makes it important to the story by way of the question that originally inspired the series: What would really happen if a regular guy were tapped on the shoulder and told he has to save the world, and that he's probably going to die in the process? Rand is pretty fucked up in the head for most of the series, and you could argue that the odds were so stacked against him on Dragonmount that the Pattern made sure he had not one or two but three women who love him to bond him and guide him through that moment.

When RJ was actually asked about it, he invariably said something like this (with his wife's response included):

Robert Jordan said:

Interview: Sep 4th, 2005
DragonCon Report - Matt Hatch (Verbatim)

Question
I was wondering, can you talk about how your lead character would have not one but three true loves, and how does your wife feel about that?

Robert Jordan
Um, when I was much younger, before I met Harriet, I had two girlfriends simultaneously, who arranged my dating schedule between them, who was going to date me on which night. They chipped in together to buy me birthday presents and Christmas presents. You know, they just sort of shared me between them, you know. And they had been friends before, and I am not quite sure whether or not they made the decision they were both going to date me or not, on their own, before they first met me, it just came about. But I figured if I could manage two, surely Rand could manage three. Besides there are mythological reasons to have these three women involved with him.

As far as my view on this, with Harriet, I have many more than three women, there are so many facets to her personality she quite often makes me dizzy, I am quite satisfied there. About how she feels about this, I suspect you want her answer, I seem to remember her saying to me, you do remember this is fantasy right? And I think it was an accident she was holding a carving knife to my throat, just coincidence, but I am not sure.

Harriet McDougal Rigney
In four short words, I am not for it. Four and a half words.

Rand has stated his intention to link with Nynaeve at Shayol Ghul, and Min can't channel, and Elayne is pregnant. While it's possible that Aviendha will be the other one, most people think Alivia is more likely. Some have argued that it will be Cyndane (because she drilled the Bore in the first place). I have argued that it might be Tuon.

PS: I am reminded how horrible Matt's punctuation is. I always feel the need to fix his transcripts.

PPS: There are two more quotes I should probably include.

Robert Jordan said:

Interview: Oct 20th, 1994
LOC Signing Report - Delemin (Paraphrased)

Robert Jordan
Jordan also mentioned a few things about himself. He planned to go to West Point and have a military career, but his eyesight wasn't good enough, so he went to The Citadel and served a single term in the military. When he started writing he imagined living on the French River, working 2-3 hours in the morning, and spending the day on the beach with a blond, a brunette, and a redhead. Sound familiar?

Robert Jordan said:

Interview: Oct 9th, 1996
ACOS Signing Report - Erica Sadun (Paraphrased)

Question
How do you get your ideas?

Robert Jordan
I opened the closet one day and found three young women, diaphanously clad who had made themselves at home. They had hung up needle point embroidery and otherwise furnished the closet. I had a discipline stick available and beat them. Now, every day, they hand me a list of ten ideas.

Question
Have you been arrested for muse abuse?

Robert Jordan
They refuse to testify.

PPPS: I should also mention that Brandon finishing the series makes for a really bad joke in the context. A bad joke that's still funny.

This post has been edited by Terez: 28 April 2012 - 08:26 AM

[amphibian]

Ah, so he probably did have some strong fantasies there, but went monogamous for Harriet.

Being a rather well off unmonogamously married writer of the WoT books could have made his dreams true for a while. That's life though.

Thanks!

[Terez]

amphibian, on 27 April 2012 - 10:49 PM, said:

Ah, so he probably did have some strong fantasies there, but went monogamous for Harriet.

It's not hard to see why he did; she's an amazing woman. We did an interview with her at JordanCon last weekend, and it will go up early next week. I had to rewrite her Wikipedia page (it was awful and in danger of deletion), and she was kind enough to talk to Matt aka Tamyrlin and fill in some of the gaps about her life and career. So now the page will need another overhaul. It's still pretty sorry, but much better than it was.

amphibian, on 27 April 2012 - 10:49 PM, said:

Thanks!

My pleasure.