Malazan Empire: Series re-read- with extensive spoilers and discussion - Malazan Empire

Jump to content

  • 10 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • Last »
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Series re-read- with extensive spoilers and discussion Re Read - Each book as and when

#1 User is offline   Tattersail_ 

  • formerly Ganoes Paran
  • Group: High House Mafia
  • Posts: 13,245
  • Joined: 16-July 10
  • Location:Wirral
  • Interests:Mafia. Awesome Pictures. Awesome Videos. Did I mention Mafia?
    snapchat - rustyspoon84

Posted 20 May 2011 - 05:13 PM

Not for anyone who has not read this book. There will be spoilers...

Spoiler


I am up to the bit where Rand and Matt are on Bayle Domon's boat..

Spoiler


This made me think about what he is talking about, do we know? Are these things featured? Is the mountain Shayol Ghul?

I have not read this series in over 2 years so i am catching up on things, or it is like I am reading it anew. I like the way Nynaeve is portrayed at the beginning, maybe it is me reading this at an older age but she is such a good character in this book. I remember the first time I read the series, I liked Perrin most of all, then the second time I liked Matt even more and he became my favourite. I feel like everytime I read it I notice new things. This time, so far, I am enjoying Nynaeve character, and Elyas and Thom. Thom reminds me of a cool uncle or how a young grandfather would behave.

I do have a question, when Rand dreams in this book he meets Ba'alzamon and is scared, rightly. He breaks rats backs, he also makes Rand's finger bleed because of the thorn in the dreams. Why doesn't he just kill him in the dreams. Rand could easily have died when he went to sleep, same for Matt and Perrin.

Anyway, I'd like some responses and thoughts on the first book and first book alone. I'll be moving onto the next book and then posts another topic to discuss that.

I will add more things to this thread when they come to mind.

Thank you
Apt is the only one who reads this. Apt is nice.
0

#2 User is offline   Terez 

  • High Analyst of TQB
  • Group: Team Quick Ben
  • Posts: 4,981
  • Joined: 17-January 07
  • Location:United States of North America
  • Interests:WWQBD?
  • WoT Fangirl, Rank Traitor

Posted 20 May 2011 - 05:24 PM

Are you re-reading? If not there are some spoilers in my post for things past TEOTW. I have difficulty avoiding those.

View PostTattersail, on 20 May 2011 - 05:13 PM, said:

Not for anyone who has not read this book. There will be spoilers...

Spoiler


I am up to the bit where Rand and Matt are on Bayle Domon's boat..

Spoiler


This made me think about what he is talking about, do we know? Are these things featured? Is the mountain Shayol Ghul?

Most likely not, since it's not likely anyone would survive getting that close to Shayol Ghul.

(For TFOH and TPOD, major spoilers.)

Spoiler


Quote

I do have a question, when Rand dreams in this book he meets Ba'alzamon and is scared, rightly. He breaks rats backs, he also makes Rand's finger bleed because of the thorn in the dreams. Why doesn't he just kill him in the dreams. Rand could easily have died when he went to sleep, same for Matt and Perrin.

It's either because 1) he would rather have turned Rand to the Shadow, or 2) his power was limited in some way because he didn't yet know which was which. We're not exactly sure how his ta'veren-finding trick works, and we're not sure how his dream-manipulation works either. But rats are by nature servants of the Shadow usually, so that might have given him more power over them. Some have speculated that it was some trick of the True Power.

The President (2012) said:

Please proceed, Governor.

Chris Christie (2016) said:

There it is.

Elizabeth Warren (2020) said:

And no, I知 not talking about Donald Trump. I知 talking about Mayor Bloomberg.
0

#3 User is offline   D'iversify 

  • First Sword
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 647
  • Joined: 07-October 10

Posted 21 May 2011 - 08:29 AM

Scary to think its been ten years (nearly half my lifetime ago) since I read this. My memory of it isn't great admittedly (haven't re-read it since) although a positive about WoT is that there's enough recap in later books for this not to be too much of a problem.

The time that has passed is quite amusing actually if you consider that time in the world of WoT has progressed a lot slower (the main events of the whole series taking place across only a bit over two years).

This post has been edited by D'iversify: 21 May 2011 - 08:31 AM

I am the Onyx Wizards
0

#4 User is offline   Tattersail_ 

  • formerly Ganoes Paran
  • Group: High House Mafia
  • Posts: 13,245
  • Joined: 16-July 10
  • Location:Wirral
  • Interests:Mafia. Awesome Pictures. Awesome Videos. Did I mention Mafia?
    snapchat - rustyspoon84

Posted 24 June 2011 - 10:43 AM

FOOK ME, it's been a few weeks since i started this post and i have been so into the books they have flew by, i am on crown of swords at the moment, i love these books. it is easier to re read because i can skim some of the parts i find boring or unnecessary, but i am loving every second of having my head in these books.
Apt is the only one who reads this. Apt is nice.
1

#5 User is offline   Tattersail_ 

  • formerly Ganoes Paran
  • Group: High House Mafia
  • Posts: 13,245
  • Joined: 16-July 10
  • Location:Wirral
  • Interests:Mafia. Awesome Pictures. Awesome Videos. Did I mention Mafia?
    snapchat - rustyspoon84

Posted 20 February 2012 - 08:21 AM

Just started again, I found a tidbit with Moiraine talking about the days of old. She said that some Aes Sedai could bring anyone back to life if they had the smallest spark of life left in them. I just thought of Rand dying and Nynaeve bringing him abck to life!
Apt is the only one who reads this. Apt is nice.
0

#6 User is offline   Terez 

  • High Analyst of TQB
  • Group: Team Quick Ben
  • Posts: 4,981
  • Joined: 17-January 07
  • Location:United States of North America
  • Interests:WWQBD?
  • WoT Fangirl, Rank Traitor

Posted 20 February 2012 - 08:24 AM

Well, if one has a spark of life, then one is not dead, so it wouldn't be bringing him back to life in that scenario. Moiraine's exact words: "In the Age of Legends, some Aes Sedai could fan life and health to flame if only the smallest spark remained." Of course, Nynaeve will probably be involved in Rand's resurrection, but it's not likely to be via Healing. (Much more likely to be via Tel'aran'rhiod.)

The President (2012) said:

Please proceed, Governor.

Chris Christie (2016) said:

There it is.

Elizabeth Warren (2020) said:

And no, I知 not talking about Donald Trump. I知 talking about Mayor Bloomberg.
0

#7 User is offline   Tattersail_ 

  • formerly Ganoes Paran
  • Group: High House Mafia
  • Posts: 13,245
  • Joined: 16-July 10
  • Location:Wirral
  • Interests:Mafia. Awesome Pictures. Awesome Videos. Did I mention Mafia?
    snapchat - rustyspoon84

Posted 20 February 2012 - 08:28 AM

:p Yeah we will wait and see, I did think that they may "think" he's dead but the tiniest spark remained but I guess your right. It's just great to do a re read and find something that may be pre empting or foreshadowing what may come in the future.
Apt is the only one who reads this. Apt is nice.
0

#8 User is offline   Terez 

  • High Analyst of TQB
  • Group: Team Quick Ben
  • Posts: 4,981
  • Joined: 17-January 07
  • Location:United States of North America
  • Interests:WWQBD?
  • WoT Fangirl, Rank Traitor

Posted 20 February 2012 - 08:31 AM

Indeed, but there is some good foreshadowing concerning the theory I mentioned, starting with Birgitte herself. (See here.)

The President (2012) said:

Please proceed, Governor.

Chris Christie (2016) said:

There it is.

Elizabeth Warren (2020) said:

And no, I知 not talking about Donald Trump. I知 talking about Mayor Bloomberg.
0

#9 User is offline   Tattersail_ 

  • formerly Ganoes Paran
  • Group: High House Mafia
  • Posts: 13,245
  • Joined: 16-July 10
  • Location:Wirral
  • Interests:Mafia. Awesome Pictures. Awesome Videos. Did I mention Mafia?
    snapchat - rustyspoon84

Posted 20 February 2012 - 08:49 AM

Quote


1. Balefire. Unlikely, since it would resurrect Rand's body in its current maimed state, which seems to defeat the purpose. Also, Rand is supposed to be dead-yet-living on a boat. Balefire makes that scenario pretty impossible. There are other problems, but this is enough to pretty much nix the idea.

2. Transmigration. We can hope not. I mean, if the Dark One resurrects Rand, presumably he can control Rand. Why not resurrect him and then mindtrap him, or some such?

3. Body-stealing. Not really resurrection, but we're talking what Mordeth did to Fain, and what the body-swap theory proposes Rand will do to Moridin (though presumably Moridin's soul will be evicted from the premises, which is what Mordeth would have done to pretty much anyone besides Fain).

4. What Moghedien did to Birgitte. Nynaeve was there. She saw it. And apparently, Moghedien did it with the Power:

TITLE - The Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 34 - A Silver Arrow

The glow around Moghedien increased until it seemed as if the blinding sun surrounded her.

The night folded in over Birgitte like an ocean wave, enveloping her in blackness. When it passed, the bow dropped atop empty clothes as they collapsed. The clothes faded like fog burning off, and only the bow and arrows remained, shining in the moonlight.

Moghedien sank to her knees, panting, clutching the protruding arrow shaft with both hands as the glow around her faded and died. Then she vanished, and the silver arrow fell where she had been, stained dark with blood.

After what seemed an eternity, Nynaeve managed to push up to hands and knees. Weeping, she crawled to Birgitte's bow. This time it was not pain that made tears come. Kneeling, naked and not caring, she clutched the bow. "I'm sorry," she sobbed. "Oh, Birgitte, forgive me. Birgitte!"

There was no answer except the mournful cry of a night-bird.

Some have argued that Moghedien did this with a combination of the Power and Tel'aran'rhiod, and while it's possible, there's really no reason to assume that it was done with anything beyond the Power, and even if it was, there's no reason to assume that Nynaeve could not duplicate it. As was emphasized in TOM, manipulating Tel'aran'rhiod is more about strength of will and power of imagination than anything else. There are no weaves to learn. You just have to believe you can do something to do it. Nynaeve may not be a trained Dreamer, but she has more experience than most when it comes to manipulating Tel'aran'rhiod; Egwene remarked on her skill in the battles against Mesaana and the Black Ajah.

If Rand is ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod, then his three women will have to bond him again to save him from death just as Birgitte was saved by Elayne. This idea has an amazing amount of resonance with the prophecies - Nicola's Foretelling, the dream shared by Bair and Melaine, the funeral pyre, the funeral bier, etc. Min's viewing of Nynaeve suggests that her grief will be important. If Rand's body is going to be burned, or put on a funeral bier at all, then it makes no sense for him to be dead-yet-living on a boat....unless it's a totally different body. The body-swap theory addresses this, but the Nynaeve theory provides the most eloquent explanation for the importance of the three women. The body on the pyre/funeral bier is the maimed body, the dead body. The Birgitte quote explains 'dead yet lives', and the body on the boat is the one that was ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod. The three women are there to save him with the bond.

In this scenario, most likely the land being divided by the return indicates that Rand has not yet won the Last Battle (because the two must be 'as one' in order for that to occur), which would explain the man on the narrow bed, and also why it is important for Rand to be resurrected. Rand's premature death would also explain the Broken Wolf in the Dark Prophecy, and the bond might help to explain the anomaly with Aviendha's babies. If Rand's death is to lead the Shadow to believe that they have won for a time, then it explains why Rand heard I have won again, Lews Therin... at the end of every single life he lived in the Portal Stone incident. Easy enough to assume that he had avoided this by making the right choices, but perhaps this is simply his most unavoidable destiny.

Cons:

1. Birgitte almost died! It was awful! Well, she was saved by the bond. Obviously Rand will be too.

2. Birgitte was ripped out of her role as a Hero; doing the same to the Dragon would be disastrous. Not so. Min saw (at the first bonding) that Birgitte is still tied to Gaidal. We know this because 1) Gaidal was always born first before, 2) Min saw that Birgitte was tied in many lives to the same man who was sometimes younger (as he will be this time) and sometimes older.

3. Rand won't break the precepts. Probably true. Nynaeve can find him with Need. Incidentally, Nynaeve was the first one the Wise Ones taught to use Need, in TSR.

4. There's no way Nynaeve will remember that weave. Well, there are at least three separate quotes showing that Nynaeve only has to see a weave once to remember it. This is quite aside from all of the foreshadowing that she will 'Heal' death. Speaking of...




You have provided four options there and out of the four the one you presented would be the best choice. I would ask if you think that Robert Jordan would have thought of something this complicated way back when? I ask because he was supposed to have thought of the ending when he wrote the first book and the concept of Birgitte may not have arrived to him until later. I just think that maybe this aspect of the book would be a lot simpler for us to grasp, but I do like your theory and idea and it does look the best bet when you put that much level of work into it.
Apt is the only one who reads this. Apt is nice.
0

#10 User is offline   Terez 

  • High Analyst of TQB
  • Group: Team Quick Ben
  • Posts: 4,981
  • Joined: 17-January 07
  • Location:United States of North America
  • Interests:WWQBD?
  • WoT Fangirl, Rank Traitor

Posted 20 February 2012 - 09:22 AM

View PostTattersail, on 20 February 2012 - 08:49 AM, said:

You have provided four options there and out of the four the one you presented would be the best choice. I would ask if you think that Robert Jordan would have thought of something this complicated way back when?

Absolutely. The Horn of Valere was introduced in book one, and and it's adapted from Arthurian legend, among other legends.

Quote

I ask because he was supposed to have thought of the ending when he wrote the first book and the concept of Birgitte may not have arrived to him until later.

Birgitte was introduced along with the other Heroes in book 2, which was essentially finished when he published TEOTW. There are some major foreshadowings of his death beginning in TGH. (There are some subtler ones in TEOTW.) Birgitte comes full on-screen in TSR, around the same time it becomes clear that Rand has Lews Therin kicking around in his head, and she gets ripped out in TFOH. You didn't quote the foreshadowings. One of them just after Birgitte was ripped out:

Quote

TITLE - The Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 49 - To Boannda

All [Marigan] had ever wanted to do was cure sickness, and she claimed to have done it well, though she had not been able to save her husband. The five years since his death had been hard, and the coming of the Prophet had certainly not helped her any. Mobs searching for Aes Sedai chased her into hiding after she had cured a man of fever and rumor had turned it into bringing him back from the dead. That was how little most people knew of Aes Sedai; death was beyond the power to Heal. Even Marigan seemed to think it was not. She did not know where she was going any more than Nicola. A village somewhere, she hoped, where she could dispense herbs again in peace.

And of course, Marigan=Moghedien, who ultimately taught Nynaeve how to do it. Which is a nice contrast with her being such an unwilling teacher. Posted Image

Quote

I just think that maybe this aspect of the book would be a lot simpler for us to grasp, but I do like your theory and idea and it does look the best bet when you put that much level of work into it.

RJ always said...I'll just quote him:


Quote

INTERVIEW: Nov 1st, 1994
Fast Forward Interview
FAST FORWARD
And your work has undergone an INCREDIBLY intense analysis. I mean, you have people dissecting PARAGRAPHS, trying to find hidden meanings, trying to forecast future events. Trying to determine where you drew certain elements of the religions and the beliefs and the customs that you have presented in these six books.

ROBERT JORDAN
It's all part of the plan. (Laughs)

FAST FORWARD
It's all part of the plan?

ROBERT JORDAN
Well, not really. Not that anybody would go into that depth of analysis. But I want to make the books as layered as possible, so that you could read them on the surface and have a good time, and no more than that. I have twelve year olds who write me fan letters, and I'm certain that's how they read the books. But I wanted layers beneath that, and layers beneath THAT, so that no matter how many times you read the books there would always be something new to find.

You don't have to know beforehand that Nynaeve is going to resurrect Rand this way. In fact, RJ would prefer that most readers be surprised. (Those of us who discuss it online are a small fraction of the overall readership.) But when you read it, it has to make sense. And it will. And then you get to go back and read the series yet again to see what all you missed.

Posted Image

This post has been edited by Terez: 20 February 2012 - 09:24 AM

The President (2012) said:

Please proceed, Governor.

Chris Christie (2016) said:

There it is.

Elizabeth Warren (2020) said:

And no, I知 not talking about Donald Trump. I知 talking about Mayor Bloomberg.
0

#11 User is offline   HoosierDaddy 

  • Believer
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 7,857
  • Joined: 30-June 08
  • Location:Indianapolis
  • Interests:Football

Posted 20 February 2012 - 09:35 AM

I admire your tenacity, Terez. And, I truly admire your attempts to decipher RJ's plan. But, I think you are wrong in quite a bit of it, and I think the resolution of the Gawyn/Galad/Rand plotline is just a forerunner of it.

But, it's still fun reading because you make your theories so compelling. Hell, I'd never considered Sorilea as a Darkfriend until I read your stuff. Brilliant, but I think wrong. :p

If it can be done, I think you have put too much thought into it. But, then again, you nestled out Justice as the sword Rand got out of nowhere.

So, Go on with your bad self.
Trouble arrives when the opponents to such a system institute its extreme opposite, where individualism becomes godlike and sacrosanct, and no greater service to any other ideal (including community) is possible. In such a system rapacious greed thrives behind the guise of freedom, and the worst aspects of human nature come to the fore....
0

#12 User is offline   Terez 

  • High Analyst of TQB
  • Group: Team Quick Ben
  • Posts: 4,981
  • Joined: 17-January 07
  • Location:United States of North America
  • Interests:WWQBD?
  • WoT Fangirl, Rank Traitor

Posted 20 February 2012 - 09:45 AM

View PostH.D., on 20 February 2012 - 09:35 AM, said:

I admire your tenacity, Terez. And, I truly admire your attempts to decipher RJ's plan. But, I think you are wrong in quite a bit of it, and I think the resolution of the Gawyn/Galad/Rand plotline is just a forerunner of it.

I'm sure many of my theories are about half-true, as usual. The Nynaeve-resurrects-Rand one is the strongest, though. The foreshadowing is multiple and rock-solid, and there's basically no other option that doesn't suck on many levels.

Quote

If it can be done, I think you have put too much thought into it.

People say this a lot, as if to say, 'Just because I don't remember half of what happened in the books doesn't mean my opinion isn't important!' But they're usually wrong. Posted Image

Quote

But, then again, you nestled out Justice as the sword Rand got out of nowhere.

Nah, one of the Dragonmount admins spilled the beans (and the beans were spilled to her by Brandon in an email, so the story goes). I just found the foreshadowing.

The President (2012) said:

Please proceed, Governor.

Chris Christie (2016) said:

There it is.

Elizabeth Warren (2020) said:

And no, I知 not talking about Donald Trump. I知 talking about Mayor Bloomberg.
0

#13 User is offline   HoosierDaddy 

  • Believer
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 7,857
  • Joined: 30-June 08
  • Location:Indianapolis
  • Interests:Football

Posted 20 February 2012 - 09:52 AM

"If it can be done I think you have put too much thought into it" is very much cognizant of how anal you and your WoT brethren are. Just a simple notation that Occam's razor still exists inside RJ's universe. :p
Trouble arrives when the opponents to such a system institute its extreme opposite, where individualism becomes godlike and sacrosanct, and no greater service to any other ideal (including community) is possible. In such a system rapacious greed thrives behind the guise of freedom, and the worst aspects of human nature come to the fore....
0

#14 User is offline   Terez 

  • High Analyst of TQB
  • Group: Team Quick Ben
  • Posts: 4,981
  • Joined: 17-January 07
  • Location:United States of North America
  • Interests:WWQBD?
  • WoT Fangirl, Rank Traitor

Posted 20 February 2012 - 09:57 AM

View PostH.D., on 20 February 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

"If it can be done I think you have put too much thought into it" is very much cognizant of how anal you and your WoT brethren are. Just a simple notation that Occam's razor still exists inside RJ's universe. :p

What does Occam's Razor have to do with it? For one thing, none of the other options are simpler, unless you count those that constitute major literary cheats in the wording of the prophecies. For another thing, while the simplest answer is often the correct one, it's certainly not always the correct one. I have seen the Razor used over and over by people who turned out to be on the wrong side of the argument. It's not something you can just pull out and say "I win." Posted Image

The President (2012) said:

Please proceed, Governor.

Chris Christie (2016) said:

There it is.

Elizabeth Warren (2020) said:

And no, I知 not talking about Donald Trump. I知 talking about Mayor Bloomberg.
0

#15 User is offline   Tattersail_ 

  • formerly Ganoes Paran
  • Group: High House Mafia
  • Posts: 13,245
  • Joined: 16-July 10
  • Location:Wirral
  • Interests:Mafia. Awesome Pictures. Awesome Videos. Did I mention Mafia?
    snapchat - rustyspoon84

Posted 20 February 2012 - 10:34 AM

View PostTerez, on 20 February 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:

View PostH.D., on 20 February 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

"If it can be done I think you have put too much thought into it" is very much cognizant of how anal you and your WoT brethren are. Just a simple notation that Occam's razor still exists inside RJ's universe. :p

What does Occam's Razor have to do with it? For one thing, none of the other options are simpler, unless you count those that constitute major literary cheats in the wording of the prophecies. For another thing, while the simplest answer is often the correct one, it's certainly not always the correct one. I have seen the Razor used over and over by people who turned out to be on the wrong side of the argument. It's not something you can just pull out and say "I win." Posted Image




Can you explain Occam's Razor to me?



I am up to the part in The Eye of the World were they are leaving Emond's Field. Chapter is called leavetakings I think. I started a re read last year around this time I think and i'm doing another one now. Only cause I am banned from buying anything new until after our wedding :p
Apt is the only one who reads this. Apt is nice.
0

#16 User is offline   Jade-Green Pig-Hog Swine-Beast 

  • Knight Seneschal
  • Group: Team Quick Ben
  • Posts: 1,551
  • Joined: 31-August 10
  • Location:London, UK
  • Interests:Fencing, ninpo, didjeridu, good books, good films and irn-bru.
  • Pre-dinner mayonnaise -- it's good for you!

Posted 20 February 2012 - 10:41 AM

Quote

Occam's razor, also known as Ockham's razor, and sometimes expressed in Latin as lex parsimoniae (the law of parsimony, economy or succinctness), is a principle that generally recommends that, from among competing hypotheses, selecting the one that makes the fewest new assumptions usually provides the correct one, and that the simplest explanation will be the most plausible until evidence is presented to prove it false.

The love I bear thee can afford no better term than this: thou art a villain.

"Perhaps we think up our own destinies and so, in a sense, deserve whatever happens to us, for not having had the wit to imagine something better." Iain Banks
0

#17 User is offline   Tattersail_ 

  • formerly Ganoes Paran
  • Group: High House Mafia
  • Posts: 13,245
  • Joined: 16-July 10
  • Location:Wirral
  • Interests:Mafia. Awesome Pictures. Awesome Videos. Did I mention Mafia?
    snapchat - rustyspoon84

Posted 20 February 2012 - 10:59 AM

So in this example, Rand being Healed from near death would be best because it is simplest?
Apt is the only one who reads this. Apt is nice.
0

#18 User is offline   HoosierDaddy 

  • Believer
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 7,857
  • Joined: 30-June 08
  • Location:Indianapolis
  • Interests:Football

Posted 20 February 2012 - 08:07 PM

I've no clue what the fuck I was talking about last night Terez.

Apologies.
Trouble arrives when the opponents to such a system institute its extreme opposite, where individualism becomes godlike and sacrosanct, and no greater service to any other ideal (including community) is possible. In such a system rapacious greed thrives behind the guise of freedom, and the worst aspects of human nature come to the fore....
0

#19 User is offline   Terez 

  • High Analyst of TQB
  • Group: Team Quick Ben
  • Posts: 4,981
  • Joined: 17-January 07
  • Location:United States of North America
  • Interests:WWQBD?
  • WoT Fangirl, Rank Traitor

Posted 20 February 2012 - 08:46 PM

View PostH.D., on 20 February 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I've no clue what the fuck I was talking about last night Terez.

Apologies.

LOL. I should have guessed. But you know, they say your true feelings come out when you're in the drink!

The President (2012) said:

Please proceed, Governor.

Chris Christie (2016) said:

There it is.

Elizabeth Warren (2020) said:

And no, I知 not talking about Donald Trump. I知 talking about Mayor Bloomberg.
0

#20 User is offline   Terez 

  • High Analyst of TQB
  • Group: Team Quick Ben
  • Posts: 4,981
  • Joined: 17-January 07
  • Location:United States of North America
  • Interests:WWQBD?
  • WoT Fangirl, Rank Traitor

Posted 20 February 2012 - 10:17 PM

View PostJade-Green Pig-Hog Swine-Beast, on 20 February 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

Quote

Occam's razor, also known as Ockham's razor, and sometimes expressed in Latin as lex parsimoniae (the law of parsimony, economy or succinctness), is a principle that generally recommends that, from among competing hypotheses, selecting the one that makes the fewest new assumptions usually provides the correct one, and that the simplest explanation will be the most plausible until evidence is presented to prove it false.


View PostTattersail, on 20 February 2012 - 10:59 AM, said:

So in this example, Rand being Healed from near death would be best because it is simplest?

That's the assumption. But as I said earlier, it doesn't hit the mark for a number of reasons, mainly because it doesn't involve Rand actually dying. I could go on and on for days about the evidence that Rand is going to be resurrected in this way, including things like the Perun legends, Arthurian, etc. It's really hard to convey in a short space. But I think it requires the fewest assumptions of any theory on Rand's death and resurrection, because there are quotes in the books to tie the theory to every relevant prophecy on several levels.

Like, for example, the precepts. Say Rand is a good boy and would never, ever break them. That would make it impossible for Nynaeve to find him, in theory. But Birgitte says before she is ripped out that living people can do more than she can, and while she's confident she can hide when she wants to, if Nynaeve has the Pattern on her side when she is searching for Rand, then she can use Need. And while Egwene is the dreamer of the books, Nynaeve was the one that learned the art of using Need to search for things from the Wise Ones. This was in LOC, the book after Birgitte got ripped out, and another step up the ladder in terms of foreshadowing Rand's death. And his Lews Therin memories. (It was in LOC that we learned of the Aelfinn's answer: "To live, you must die," etc.) Egwene even whined about not being able to help. I would say it's significant that RJ had Nynaeve learn Need, and not Egwene. Nynaeve went on to teach it to Elayne (in LOC), and that might be significant, too.

Also in LOC, Nicola has a Foretelling backing up the Aelfinn's answer to Rand: 'The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade.' Nynaeve and Elayne were both there. Elayne might have actually remembered it, since she was mentioned in the very first words, as if to get her attention. She grew up with Elaida, and knows what a Foretelling looks like. But it was in Nynaeve's POV. As the Wise Ones said, Nynaeve is the huntress. :p Also in LOC, Aviendha tells Rand about some dreams that the Wise One had about him. One of them mentions the three women on the boat with him, but Aviendha says the Wise Ones could not see their faces. She might or might not have been telling the truth; it was in Rand's POV. But Nicola told us who the three women were. In Winter's Heart, notably after the bonding, Min tells Rand that if he dies she's going to follow him and bring him back. Now, we know that Nynaeve has to do that part. She's the only one who knows how. But Birgitte would have died if Elayne had not been there to bond her when she was ripped out, and obviously all three of them will do the same for Rand.

I could go on and on and on, but the point is that it's a jigsaw puzzle, and all the pieces fit. Most theories only take a few pieces into account. This one covers hundreds. The biggest aspect of Rand's death that isn't really touched on by this theory has to do with the ostensible reason for his death: his link to Moridin. That was also foreshadowed strongly in TEOTW and again in TDR. This aspect of his death is much more closely tied to Egwene than to Nynaeve and the harem. Most readers shouldn't find that surprising.

The President (2012) said:

Please proceed, Governor.

Chris Christie (2016) said:

There it is.

Elizabeth Warren (2020) said:

And no, I知 not talking about Donald Trump. I知 talking about Mayor Bloomberg.
1

Share this topic:


  • 10 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • Last »
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users