[Migol]

Quote

So it seems Fener was in on the game, or at least was at peace (no pun intended) with the outcome.


Good catch. When we see Fener back in RG he's not quite so clear, but given that took place in Leth which is Mael's territory it makes sense. As well, Fener was referred to as an ally of the good guy gods iirc back in MoI, where his de-god-ification i DG was noted as a serious blow to their efforts.

Just a thought that occurred to me, Fener spent a great deal of time hiding in Errastus' temple...spying on the Elder Gods for ST/Mael/K'rul?

[HoosierDaddy]

I haven't really posted a lot in this forum. Don't know if I ever will, actually. However, that being said:

I've been musing on the Bonehunters in the Glass Desert, and what was in reality Tavore's plan/not a plan. The realistic reasons given here make sense: the need for water with Mael, the distance, etc. But what about metaphoric reasoning? The Bonehunters suffer terribly. They die of thirst, unknown to all but themselves. Knowing this, Tavore's ultimate plan is to sacrifice them as a quasi-feint, quasi-master plan for the Heart and Korabas.

How can one stand as they did for something one doesn't understand? How can one remotely approach the suffering of Kaminsod to empathize with his plight? Perhaps Tavore needed the Bonehunters to empathize with The Crippled God in order to stand as they did in the end.

Just a thought on what SE layers into his narratives.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 19 March 2011 - 09:37 PM

[KeithF]

QuickTidal, on 19 March 2011 - 03:29 PM, said:

Was no one else taken aback by the flip Erikson pulled here? We spend almost the entire series thinking that the crippled god was the big bad that needed to be taken out, and in the end they all spend countless lives trying to save him? That was awesome, and I didn't see it coming.

This was foreshadowed enough in earlier books (and theorized here, IIRC) that I wasn't surprised when it was revealed. I agree that it was a pretty gutsy and unusual thing to do in a fantasy series, though, setting up a 'secretive uber-villain who is behind everything' and then not only making him sympathetic but making saving him part of the final showdown. One slight problem was that we were left without many fleshed-out, interesting antagonists; most of the opposition in TCG (apart from the meddling Elder Gods) were new characters/groups or had had only limited screentime in earlier books.

[Mentalist]

It is 4 Am. I got the book yesterday, and I just finished.

i am...blown away.


seriously. it all came together. Every race, Every ascendant, every major lingering question... all of it.


Several points:

there was only one thing in the entire book that really dissapointed me. THe fact that after breaking the Liosan, the Andii follow them through Lightfall, to wipe out all survivors. Honestly, I wanted to see reconciliation.


biggest "dammit, why, SE?" moment, would have to be Gruntle... he was always one of those i've had a soft spot for and his death... I understand why, but still.... damnit, KIlava, why couldn't you just let him kill all those Eleint?

only serious matter that lacked closure: the sundered Shadow. seriously.

there's also a question that's been bugging me aever since the DoD prologue: where the hell did Heboric's soul go? WHere did Mael and K'ril dig it up?


The FAs. so ignorant and stupid. tCG was proabably the closes thing MBotF could have to "bad evil villains", but in the end they weren't nowhere close to being the main players...... well done, SE.

also, I love how the Shake parts, as well as some of the poems keep mentioning "the sceptre, and the throne"--this makes me think of a link to ICE's next novel...

ah, I cannot wait untill May. when i'll be able to do a full series re-read. and it shall be awesome.

[Cyphon]

I thought it was just me who thought that about the poems. I was about to quoteFU the relevant section of the forums, but time keeps slipping away from me.

Shadow's sundering is one of many points not dealt with. But then, if we don't know how it happened.....

Also, the Liosan getting whupped by the Andii, what did you expect? That once the Andii turned up they would hug and make like Mother Dark and Father Light, and then the Tiste Edur would come and frollick and paddle on the shore. It seemed the natural progression from where we were at, the yin and yang in contention, and you know they won't be fully successful and there will be some comeback from the Liosan in the future.

[Abyss]

amphibian, on 19 March 2011 - 09:00 PM, said:

It seems that the chaining of Korabas made Anomander's fracturing of Tiam actually stick for a while. Tiam was in abeyance until Starvald Demelain opened, Korabas was freed and the Storms were free to merge.

Interesting theory. makes good sense.

Quote

On another note, it makes the Storm/trio of Menadore, Sukhul Andadhu and Sheltatha Lore all the more remarkable: those three hated each other enough that the Storm couldn't be controlled or go as smoothly as the others we saw in tCG.

All three of them were close in power and age, so it would have been difficult for one to dominate the others.

HoosierDaddy, on 19 March 2011 - 09:36 PM, said:

I haven't really posted a lot in this forum. Don't know if I ever will, actually. However, that being said:

I've been musing on the Bonehunters in the Glass Desert, and what was in reality Tavore's plan/not a plan. The realistic reasons given here make sense: the need for water with Mael, the distance, etc. But what about metaphoric reasoning? The Bonehunters suffer terribly. They die of thirst, unknown to all but themselves. Knowing this, Tavore's ultimate plan is to sacrifice them as a quasi-feint, quasi-master plan for the Heart and Korabas.

How can one stand as they did for something one doesn't understand? How can one remotely approach the suffering of Kaminsod to empathize with his plight? Perhaps Tavore needed the Bonehunters to empathize with The Crippled God in order to stand as they did in the end.

Just a thought on what SE layers into his narratives.

And a good one.

Mentalist, on 23 March 2011 - 09:21 AM, said:

...there was only one thing in the entire book that really dissapointed me. THe fact that after breaking the Liosan, the Andii follow them through Lightfall, to wipe out all survivors. Honestly, I wanted to see reconciliation.
...

Fant's people likely aren't the only group of Liosan out there.

Quote

only serious matter that lacked closure: the sundered Shadow. seriously.

But it IS closed. The elder Warren is shattered, the splinter warrens are human aspected and all growsed up, the Edur are scattered or settled in Leth, and one day Seren and Trull's kid has to fix it. done! [/irony].

[Mentalist]

aren't they?
i'm prety sure in that flashback with Kallor, it is described as "the last city of the Liosan"

[Abyss]

Crossposted for discussion purposes...

Abyss, on 22 March 2011 - 02:55 PM, said:

...
But come at it from a different direction... the CG knowingly did everything he's accused of.

Was he bugnuts at the time? Oh yeah. Body shredded powers drained brain fucked and tied up just for good measure.
Does that excuse everything he did? Not really, since he seems to have retained at least some level of independence and power, arguably a lot.
Was that the Gods' faults? Well, yes, theirs and everyone else at the Chainings, which, btw, includes Rake and his Andii, ST/Cots and Hood... yes, the primary ascendent players in releasing the CG were at the last party to Chain him. Considering that particular Chaining went wrong (the whole Dassem's daughter thing), that may have been the impetus for the plans that led to freeing CG in TCG.

After the Fall, the various gods and co had Kaminsod, a broken, insane with pain god too powerful to let loose. AND too powerful to kill, just for good measure. And presumably they couldn't send him home. Remember his worshippers weren't trawling through the sky at the time.

So what do you do with him?

Heal him? Apparently not an option.
Gather up all his broken parts and restore him? Bad call, if you end up with a broken and still nuts uber-god, now with MORE power.
Try harder to kill him? Difficult, and likely to seriously weaken whoever tries it, assuming they suceed, leaving them vulnerable. good luck finding an ascendent ready to do that.

So, neutralize him. Chain him up and restrain his power. Except for those bits that leak out. We can USE those.

Fastforward a few millenia, and oh, look, he's not very neutralized.

So now you have an enslaved God, too powerful to kill, being perpetually tortured and used as a power source, whose going to continue to do nasty things to the world.

How do you stop him?

Two options - kill him or save him.

And killing him is the asshole's route and likely to go horribly wrong or someone would have done it already. So...

[Ceda Cicero]

Mentalist, on 23 March 2011 - 03:16 PM, said:

aren't they?
i'm prety sure in that flashback with Kallor, it is described as "the last city of the Liosan"

Last inhabited major city, possibly. But not the last of the Liosan. For one, you've got the ones we see in Stonewielder. I think it makes sense to believe that Kadagar Fant established tyranny over Saranas and its citizens, but there are probably plenty of other Liosan elsewhere who had/wanted nothing to do with his game.

[Tremolo]

The Abyss has claws??? Hmmm...

[Kanubis]

Mentalist, on 23 March 2011 - 09:21 AM, said:

there's also a question that's been bugging me aever since the DoD prologue: where the hell did Heboric's soul go? WHere did Mael and K'ril dig it up?

I figured that since Herboric drowned Mael was able to hold on to his soul pretty easily.

[Azathmaster]

Illuyankas, on 14 March 2011 - 10:05 PM, said:

Abyss, on 14 March 2011 - 07:49 PM, said:

Actually, good chance that Badalle and most of the Snakeys were Watered, which means they had some FA blood. That would explain the link as well as how they were able to survive as far as they did.

I thought they were Shriven, and that the Watered were the Inquisitors following them and the infiltrating girl who couldn't withstand Icarias or the Glass Desert. If the Snake had any FA blood in them I don't think the Desert would have tolerated it.

I thought the shriven were the kolansii enslaved by the pures using AK... so the idea of badalle using the new warrens makes the most sense. although with SE the truth doesnt always have to make sense

[Aildiin]

I finished it too last night and I am going to say i was both sad and happy at the end.

Sad that this was over, happy with the ways things ended...

I'm itching to reread the first books especially the events in the Chain of Dogs.

Despite all of Mallick Rel and Korbolo wishes, the wickans shall be remembered !

This reminds me so much of the last scene of 'The last samurai'.
The Japanese emperor asks Nathan Altgren to tell him how Katsumoto died and Nathan Altgren answers : ' I will tell you how he lived'.


That's how I feel about the Bridgeburners and Coltaine. I want to reread the story of their life...

This post has been edited by Aildiin: 01 April 2011 - 05:27 PM

[Abyss]

I know what you mean. I really want to go back to the beginning and see just how much groundwork SE laid down for the end of this. I'm so certain there's all kinds of bits we couldn't catch until now.

[Lister of Smeg]

I've already started my series reread and I'm now 1/3 of the way through DG. Just got to the part where Kulp is thinking about his Meanas warren acting all eager and how it's wrong to think of a warren having a consciousness and being a real entity. All I could think was, "Oh no it isn't. There's a dragon around somewhere who is Meanas."!

Not to mention the number of crazy theories I'm coming up with now that I know what happens at the end. Like were Baudin and Heboric manipulated into touching the Jade Finger and pulling Fener into the world in preparation for what happens nine books later? Or did the other gods just take advantage of the situation? And I'm more and more convinced that Tavore was Shadowthrone's creature right from the beginning of the series, even though she's had hardly any screentime yet.

I'm also finding that I really miss the Bonehunters while reading these earlier books. Even though there are loads of great characters around, I just want to read more of the banter between Fid's squad or Throatslitter and Deadsmell. Lots of people didn't like the amount of attention giving these soldiers early on but I love them all.

[Abyss]

Lister of Smeg, on 01 April 2011 - 05:29 PM, said:

I've already started my series reread and I'm now 1/3 of the way through DG. Just got to the part where Kulp is thinking about his Meanas warren acting all eager and how it's wrong to think of a warren having a consciousness and being a real entity. All I could think was, "Oh no it isn't. There's a dragon around somewhere who is Meanas."! ...

Yah, Seren's chats with Meanas in RG take on a whole other context once you know who is doing the chatting.

And everything Mael does from MT forward is shifted if you think he was always part of the conspiracy to free the CG.

[edgewalker81]

Abyss, on 01 April 2011 - 07:11 PM, said:

Lister of Smeg, on 01 April 2011 - 05:29 PM, said:

I've already started my series reread and I'm now 1/3 of the way through DG. Just got to the part where Kulp is thinking about his Meanas warren acting all eager and how it's wrong to think of a warren having a consciousness and being a real entity. All I could think was, "Oh no it isn't. There's a dragon around somewhere who is Meanas."! ...

Yah, Seren's chats with Meanas in RG take on a whole other context once you know who is doing the chatting.

And everything Mael does from MT forward is shifted if you think he was always part of the conspiracy to free the CG.

I am halfway through GotM on my full re-read and it's like an entirely different book. Nothing has ever felt so richer the second time through.

[POOPOO MCBUMFACE]

(semi-new member; registered sometime around the release of TtH, posted a couple of fragmented rants about how I love the series but hate it at the same time, then disappeared again and have long since forgotten my login. For the record, the last three books converted me to loving it as much as I did around the point of MoI)

Abyss, on 01 April 2011 - 07:11 PM, said:

Lister of Smeg, on 01 April 2011 - 05:29 PM, said:

I've already started my series reread and I'm now 1/3 of the way through DG. Just got to the part where Kulp is thinking about his Meanas warren acting all eager and how it's wrong to think of a warren having a consciousness and being a real entity. All I could think was, "Oh no it isn't. There's a dragon around somewhere who is Meanas."! ...

Yah, Seren's chats with Meanas in RG take on a whole other context once you know who is doing the chatting.

Who was this again? Tulas Shorn? Currently re-reading the series after the fantastic finale, currently on GotM (and I'll echo what others have said, it really does feel like a totally different book on re-read), and I don't want to miss anything this time around.

[Abyss]

POOPOO MCBUMFACE, on 01 April 2011 - 08:18 PM, said:

...

Abyss, on 01 April 2011 - 07:11 PM, said:

...Yah, Seren's chats with Meanas in RG take on a whole other context once you know who is doing the chatting.

Who was this again? Tulas Shorn? Currently re-reading the series after the fantastic finale, currently on GotM (and I'll echo what others have said, it really does feel like a totally different book on re-read), and I don't want to miss anything this time around.

One of Cotillion's three chained dragons.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Eloth to be precise and she?he? was associated with Mockra, actually.