[Mezla PigDog]

I just finished it. Cried like a small child for the last 20 pages or so. I can't believe it's all over *sniff* And I can't believe Fiddler survived!! I was dreading him dying and when he didn't, I was so relieved. He gets to be an old man fishing and playing his fiddle. I loved the ending with him talking to the kid the way Whiskyjack did with Paran.

Sooo best bits.... I didn't mind the Hetan and Tool happy ending, come on you cynics!! I squealed when I realised she was back. FA deaths, those boys took one hell of beating / burning / slashing / nibbling. Couldn't have happened to a nicer race either. Torrent killing Olar Ethil was great. The realisation that Grub was born out of the Chain of Dogs and understanding how he becomes the First Sword of the Empire (hopefully not under Mallick Rel though.....). Kalam coming back and him and QB back together causing mayhem was great. Paran's sappers blessing him when he gave them the munitions. When Fid finally went and let Hedge in, I cried!! The BB ghosts up on the barrow near the end, I cried!! The Kindly and Pores relationship arc, brilliant, I cried when I thought they were going to die!! Dragons everywhere! Apart from the details, it was just really cool to see all the threads and hints from so many hours of reading coming together.

Worst bits..... none really. I was holding out for some kick ass Karsa action and all he got to do was kill a giant sky hog god. You know what I mean, I was hoping for some classic Karsa action, I assumed he had a serious role to play for the final act. No Iccy resolution, not bad but frustrating, I suppose in a good way. Not finding out everything about QB, his soletaken form, nothing, but I suppose he's better off as an enigma. Sandalath going mental, someone has to go mad in each book and it might as well have been her. Blistig not getting a knife in the back! COME ON!!! He was asking for it!

I hate it but I love it bits..... dying of thirst, dying of thirst, dying of thirst, we'll die today, ok maybe just one more day but we're definitely dying after that, seriously we'll be dead as soon as we stop walking, it's all ove....oh look a magical lake. I knew it was going to happen and I'm glad it did and it's the reason we all love the genre but gah! I don't even know why I'm complaining. On a similar note: the Shake are all going to die, we're all dying, we'll all be dead in a minute, any minute now, just wait for it, it's going to be really tragic, any minute now, ooooh the Tiste Andii are home at last. There was a lot of stoic heroism leading to grudging respect going on throughout the whole series and I think I might have started to get tinsy winsy bit annoyed by it about 3 books back. At the same time though, I do love it because he write stoic heroism brilliantly!

The only absolutely terrible thing in the book was that I realised something that had been bugging me since Kilmandaros, Sechul and Erastas were in the house under the sea: I had accidentally made a mental association with something and couldn't shake it for any of the underwater bits including the Crippled God at the end. That mental association was with Spongebob Squarepants and his cronies who live under the sea in their little houses. In my head, Sechul looks like the grumpy octapus dude who is always being annoyed by SpongeBob and co and Kilmandaros looks like the pink sea slug or whatever he is. Totally killed the mood every time they went underwater!!!! I tried to get rid of it but that just made it worse

I don't really know what to do now it's over. I've got too many other books waiting to justify a re-read ..... or have I?

[amphibian]

Mezla PigDog, on 02 April 2011 - 11:45 PM, said:

The only absolutely terrible thing in the book was that I realised something that had been bugging me since Kilmandaros, Sechul and Erastas were in the house under the sea: I had accidentally made a mental association with something and couldn't shake it for any of the underwater bits including the Crippled God at the end. That mental association was with Spongebob Squarepants and his cronies who live under the sea in their little houses. In my head, Sechul looks like the grumpy octapus dude who is always being annoyed by SpongeBob and co and Kilmandaros looks like the pink sea slug or whatever he is. Totally killed the mood every time they went underwater!!!! I tried to get rid of it but that just made it worse

So the Errant = Plankton? Best metaphor ever...

[Abyss]

Mezla PigDog, on 02 April 2011 - 11:45 PM, said:

...since Kilmandaros, Sechul and Erastas were in the house under the sea: I had accidentally made a mental association with something and couldn't shake it for any of the underwater bits including the Crippled God at the end. That mental association was with Spongebob Squarepants and his cronies who live under the sea in their little houses....

Sechul Squarepants!

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Abyss, on 03 April 2011 - 04:55 AM, said:

Mezla PigDog, on 02 April 2011 - 11:45 PM, said:

...since Kilmandaros, Sechul and Erastas were in the house under the sea: I had accidentally made a mental association with something and couldn't shake it for any of the underwater bits including the Crippled God at the end. That mental association was with Spongebob Squarepants and his cronies who live under the sea in their little houses....

Sechul Squarepants!

No,no Setch is Squidwart

[MTS]

What does that make Mael? Mr. Krabs?

[Captain Beardface]

I just finished and it's bittersweet... I greatly enjoyed the entire thing but the sacrifices made by some of my favorite characters, hurt. I can see myself in Gesler's place taking on someone with no thought to my own safety to save my dog. Seeing the epilogue with Fiddler fishing on the pier and the young boy with stars in his eye was bringing it back full circle to the prologue with Ganoes telling Whiskeyjack and Fiddler that he wants to be a soldier.

[Feathersmith]

Mezla PigDog, on 02 April 2011 - 11:45 PM, said:

I don't really know what to do now it's over. I've got too many other books waiting to justify a re-read ..... or have I?

Start the re-read while the end is fresh in your head. You can do it at a slower pace and work in other books, too.

That's what I've been doing Also, reading forum threads wasn't enough to cope with suddenly being done, so the re-read is helping me ease back into a less obsessed state of mind.

I was also kind of surprised by how little we saw of Karsa, but it would have been tricky to get him all the way to the continent where the main action was - and he did get to slay a god, and have some other pretty remarkable moments. I just can't remember when he made the vow to kill a god, or even if it was Fener in particular he was after . . . I guess I'll reach that point in the reread sooner or later.

[Abyss]

MuttonChops, on 04 April 2011 - 02:34 AM, said:

... I can see myself in Gesler's place taking on someone with no thought to my own safety to save my dog. ...

To me, the really interesting part about this act, besides the fact that it was awesome, was the way it folowed on the earlier revelation that Stormy and Gesler were actively fighting not to ascend. In that context, Gesler sacrificing himself to save Bent was so human, so beautifully misplaced in the context of what was happening, that it resonated on all kinds of levels. Most people who have owned dogs would tell you without hesitation that they would, hypothetically at least, do entirely stupid things to save the animal - there was a guy on the news the other night who almost fell thru an icy river trying to save his dog, by way of example. Gesler and Bent go way back... to DG in fact, so that relationship had a lot of meaning to series as well.

[Captain Beardface]

Abyss, on 04 April 2011 - 02:17 PM, said:

MuttonChops, on 04 April 2011 - 02:34 AM, said:

... I can see myself in Gesler's place taking on someone with no thought to my own safety to save my dog. ...

To me, the really interesting part about this act, besides the fact that it was awesome, was the way it folowed on the earlier revelation that Stormy and Gesler were actively fighting not to ascend. In that context, Gesler sacrificing himself to save Bent was so human, so beautifully misplaced in the context of what was happening, that it resonated on all kinds of levels. Most people who have owned dogs would tell you without hesitation that they would, hypothetically at least, do entirely stupid things to save the animal - there was a guy on the news the other night who almost fell thru an icy river trying to save his dog, by way of example. Gesler and Bent go way back... to DG in fact, so that relationship had a lot of meaning to series as well.

Since it was Truth that convinced Gesler and Stormy to save Bent, I believe that Gesler saw protecting Bent as the same thing as saving Truth and since he felt guilt that he wasn't able to save Truth he was willing to sacrifice himself to ensure some part of Truth survived.

I hope that makes sense to someone other than myself...

[worry]

That makes a sort of sense, but is there any textual evidence, like in Gesler's thoughts? I don't remember.

[Captain Beardface]

I don't know of textual evidence as my quote-fu is weak, but the impression that Gesler felt a connection to Truth through Bent came across so... there must have been something somewhere, I just can't put my finger on it.

This post has been edited by MuttonChops: 05 April 2011 - 01:11 AM

[snake0026]

MuttonChops, on 04 April 2011 - 11:24 PM, said:

Abyss, on 04 April 2011 - 02:17 PM, said:

MuttonChops, on 04 April 2011 - 02:34 AM, said:

... I can see myself in Gesler's place taking on someone with no thought to my own safety to save my dog. ...

To me, the really interesting part about this act, besides the fact that it was awesome, was the way it folowed on the earlier revelation that Stormy and Gesler were actively fighting not to ascend. In that context, Gesler sacrificing himself to save Bent was so human, so beautifully misplaced in the context of what was happening, that it resonated on all kinds of levels. Most people who have owned dogs would tell you without hesitation that they would, hypothetically at least, do entirely stupid things to save the animal - there was a guy on the news the other night who almost fell thru an icy river trying to save his dog, by way of example. Gesler and Bent go way back... to DG in fact, so that relationship had a lot of meaning to series as well.

Since it was Truth that convinced Gesler and Stormy to save Bent, I believe that Gesler saw protecting Bent as the same thing as saving Truth and since he felt guilt that he wasn't able to save Truth he was willing to sacrifice himself to ensure some part of Truth survived.

I hope that makes sense to someone other than myself...

Here's Gesler's death scene, which, when taken in conjunction with earlier conversations between himself and Stormy about Truth (spread across DoD and tCG, if anyone cares to go hunting for the exact quotes), definitely lends some merit to your theory.

Quote

He [Gesler] saw her flexing her free arm - drawing it back to await him. He could block that blow - he could try to take her down - but Bent was dying. She was crushing his throat. No. In a flash, he saw a battlefield filled with corpses, saw Truth dragging a limp dog free of the bodies. He heard the lad's shout of surprise - and then that look in his eyes. So hopeful. So... young.
No.
...

tCG, tpb, 782

[worry]

Well there you have it.

[Captain Beardface]

Thanks for doing the grunt work, snake0026. I'll give you some rep once I home. As I can't do it from my phone and the forum is blocked at work.

[Abyss]

Snake's quote fu rep'd and interesting point raised there, especially Gesler's thinking he could block her strike (notwithstanding that she was kicking his butt up to then) but, despite the stakes, saving Bent anyways.

[Abyss]

re Karsa, it occurs to me...

Going in to TCG, Karsa was aspected to the House of Chains, the CG and the Five Rockheads.

Post TCG, all his gods are gone - the CG back to Jadesville and the Rockheads all beaten to rubble by the Assail.

And at least in theory, the House of Chains has served its purpose and will 'fade' from the Deck as other upstart Houses have been known to do (mentioned back in GotM).

Throw in that back in RG Karsa used up all the souls he was carrying around as fuel to follow Rhulad to the CG, and it would appear that Karsa's gone through a major aspect shuffle.

His 'self-contained T3 warren' is probably his only source of power, unless the Gods of War who sent him to chop Fener's altar in half have thrown in a link.

[Mott]

He should become a follower of the Errant, maybe we'll get lucky and he'll loose another God .

It leaves him a lot less restricted for the Tobalaki trilogy as well, all his major links and restrictions not having such a strong claim on him (well ascendant wise, Samar Dev no doubt has a stronger claim on him than ever). Calm is gone as well, and they had that little exchange in HoC.

[Gothos]

He rather seems the guy who'd chop Errastas in half after so little as one sentence exchanged...

[Ceda Cicero]

Abyss, on 16 June 2011 - 06:50 PM, said:

And at least in theory, the House of Chains has served its purpose and will 'fade' from the Deck as other upstart Houses have been known to do (mentioned back in GotM).

I think it's also possible (though I can't say how common/likely it is in this case) for upstart Houses to be commandeered, drift between influences/aspects, things like that. We know this in part because Paran says that Salvation is in the HoC's influence at the end of tBH, but he thinks it will break away - though this is perhaps not a good example since that's an Unaligned, not a House. I think the better case for this possibility involves Kallor's role in TtH. He's bound for Darujhistan to claim the Throne of Chains in large part because he believes that the Crippled God is about to be taken out of the picture in a coming convergence, which would leave the King in a totalitarian position, one where he could shape the House according to his liking.

Which, if Skinner is still in some regard the official King in Chains, could have interesting implications on his future role in ICE novels.

[Midnight]

Quote

re Karsa, it occurs to me...

Going in to TCG, Karsa was aspected to the House of Chains, the CG and the Five Rockheads.

Post TCG, all his gods are gone - the CG back to Jadesville and the Rockheads all beaten to rubble by the Assail.

And at least in theory, the House of Chains has served its purpose and will 'fade' from the Deck as other upstart Houses have been known to do (mentioned back in GotM).

Throw in that back in RG Karsa used up all the souls he was carrying around as fuel to follow Rhulad to the CG, and it would appear that Karsa's gone through a major aspect shuffle.

His 'self-contained T3 warren' is probably his only source of power, unless the Gods of War who sent him to chop Fener's altar in half have thrown in a link.

Don't have the book with me but I believe it's mentioned in Toll the Hounds that, although he gave up his souls in RG, Karsa has begun to collect more - starting with the bandits in the (I think) Dwelling Plain. Although it could be that that was a function of him being the Knight of Chains and he may have given up that role with the CG out of the picture.