[Wry]

Quote

Here is a video that explains why the ending is so bad in a logical manner from not just a gaming perspective, but a storytelling one. It's 39 minutes long, but I strongly urge everyone here to watch it. If you did like the ending and do watch this video and still manage to think the ending is great, please tell me how and why.

So wait, I enjoyed the endings and you want me to spend forty minutes trying to ruin that, and if that doesn't work I should tell you so you can try to convince me I'm wrong. How about no.

Also, condemning the DLC when you really know next to nothing about it is hardly the sign of an open mind.

[Morgoth]

Defiance, on 05 April 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

I think BioWare is attempting to find the middle ground by pleasing the largest number of people possible with this director's cut. People who want answers will get more of them, and people who like the original ending won't be upset because apparently they aren't changing that.

Which, to me, is bullshit. The current ending sucks, is completely nonsensical, and the only way to truly fix it so that it stays true to the other 2.99 games in the series is to change it. They're attempting to solve a problem by answering all of the questions that have arisen from it, rather than just attacking the root of the problem (the end-game sequence with the Catalyst) itself. I could be a bit premature, and BioWare could still surprise me, but I have a sinking feeling that they won't.

Good for everyone who enjoyed the ending, I guess. I don't understand you guys, but at least you can still enjoy what used to be one of the best video game series ever for me. The first 2.99 games are still fucking amazing, but damn, the ending really soured the experience for me. No matter who many times I go back and play, I'll always know what's waiting for me.

Here is a video that explains why the ending is so bad in a logical manner from not just a gaming perspective, but a storytelling one. It's 39 minutes long, but I strongly urge everyone here to watch it. If you did like the ending and do watch this video and still manage to think the ending is great, please tell me how and why.

Listen to yourself, or read yourself I guess. Had this sort of bombastic nonsense been thrown out in the lit sub-forum you'd have been hounded out of the thread.

[Defiance]

Wry, on 05 April 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

Quote

Here is a video that explains why the ending is so bad in a logical manner from not just a gaming perspective, but a storytelling one. It's 39 minutes long, but I strongly urge everyone here to watch it. If you did like the ending and do watch this video and still manage to think the ending is great, please tell me how and why.

So wait, I enjoyed the endings and you want me to spend forty minutes trying to ruin that, and if that doesn't work I should tell you so you can try to convince me I'm wrong. How about no.

Also, condemning the DLC when you really know next to nothing about it is hardly the sign of an open mind.

I could reply that refusing to watch a video that will help explain just what is wrong with the ending is hardly a sign of an open mind as well. Ignorance is bliss, right?

Given BioWare's statements about clarification and expansion rather than revision, I'm going to continue to be paranoid.

EDIT: Just saw Morgoth's post. In what way am I being rude or lofty? Excuse the swearing, it's part of how I talk. I only become defensive (now) when others, such as yourself and Wry, are telling me that I'm being ridiculous. Okay, so you like the ending. That's great. You're reading too much into what I'm saying. I truly am happy for people who liked the ending - hell, I wish that I could have liked it.

I also merely suggested people watch that video. It gives formation to the thoughts of many who didn't like it, and those who did and are interested in the controversy about the ending may find it interesting as well. Nobody is required to convince me that the ending was good. If people want to try, they are more than welcome to. I am open to any logical arguments people may provide, and if you have a solid list of why the ending is so great, please, provide it. I would love to have my assumptions change.

This post has been edited by Defiance: 05 April 2012 - 07:30 PM

[Ulrik]

No, my friend, there is simple difference. Be happy and be unhappy isnt equal state.

There are people claiming that end is good for them. And then you rumble on your unicorn and yell "I have prove that your satisfaction is wrong! See this revelations and after that, explain yourself or renounce your satisfaction! I insist. Or I will name you ignorant!".

Sorry, but for me its acting like douchebag. So, some/ many people here happy with The Ending. And what the hell is your problem with that? You are not happy? Your pain, your wound, your problem. But dont try this lame strategy "you must see the video and than explain WHY YOU ARE HAPPY, or you are ignorant, blah blah". They dont bear responsibility for your or some universal happiness. They liked it, you didnt... deal with it, or discuss it...just do it politely. I think, that this forum proved many times that constructive discussion is useful.

Maybe you meant it less offesively - or you were just frustrated by the game etc... But its second your post to the topic, that sound blind, agressive and foolish to me. And it seem Im not only one. Sorry...

This post has been edited by Ulrik: 05 April 2012 - 09:55 PM

[Defiance]

I fail to see the issue here.

I urge people to watch a video if they're interested in the controversy regarding the ending. Of course I strongly urge people to watch it. For me, it underlines the problems with the ending. It gives voice to my issues with the game. I thought it was a great video, so why wouldn't I recommend it?

I do not state that the video is conclusive proof that the ending is terrible; I do not believe that true objectiveness exists, and as a result people will always have differing opinions. If you have a logical explanation for why you liked the ending rather than simply a feeling, that's great. You don't have to share it with me if you don't want to.

I do not tell people they have to watch it. Thus, "If you did like the ending and if you do watch this video". I do not expect people to watch a 39 minutes video, especially when it's about something they don't agree with. I was simply requesting that, should someone who liked the ending watch it and still have the same opinion, I would like to know why. I am not omniscient, I do not have unlimited perspectives. I can only view the ending from where I stand, and through discussion I may be granted a different perspective. If this happens, then that's wonderful. I would be ecstatic to have my opinions regarding the ending change. The same thing happened with the ending of The Crippled God, to be honest. I initially thought that the ending was only "okay", but after a certain interview with Steven Erikson, which shed some light on a couple of things, I now love how the series concludes.

I only implied Wry's ignorance after he stated the same for me. That was a mistake, as are all personal attacks in a discussion like this. Call me a douchebag or whatever, I don't really care. The only thing that really frustrates me is when people misinterpret my points.

Stop reading too much into what I'm saying. Disagreement and personal attacks are not the same thing. I may disagree with people regarding certain issues (such as the ending), but I do not make the assumption (or personal attacks) that people are close-minded, stupid, douchebags, etc. because of those opinions.

I would like to get past this. If you continue to think I'm on a high horse, preaching with a cudgel that my opinion about the ending is right, and want to continue to argue about this silly issue, send me a personal message. I'd much rather limit this topic to discussion of Mass Effect 3, not discussion about the discussion.


In other news, I'm sure many people will find this interesting:


Spoilers from BioWare's community manager Jessica Merizan. Google her name and look at her Twitter to confirm everything I'm saying.

Spoiler

Apparently, depending on your ending (how much EMS you get, most likely):

It's likely that the Relays will be able to be rebuilt (possibly because there's a ton of Reaper technology lying around?).
It may be possible for Shepard to reunite with his crew (nice, but it's still a mess. Why wasn't Joker's Mass Relay jump instant, like all others are? And if he was just using FTL, well, why is he on a planet that clearly isn't in the Sol system?).
Nobody starves to death.
She says she's going to be explaining more about all of this later, but not on Twitter.

The endings are not changing. From what she has said, the final scenes will not be altered in any way. What's coming is entirely new content, not an edit of what already exists.

EDIT: Apparently, typing "spoilers" for people isn't enough and they just can't help but continue reading. So, I threw in a spoiler tag.

This post has been edited by Defiance: 05 April 2012 - 11:39 PM

[Loki]

Stop arguing and focus on saving the galaxy, people!

The Reapers are HERE!

[Defiance]

Spoiler

Manly tears. Best fucking war-buddy ever!

[Tapper]

Defiance, on 05 April 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:

Wry, on 05 April 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

So wait, I enjoyed the endings and you want me to spend forty minutes trying to ruin that, and if that doesn't work I should tell you so you can try to convince me I'm wrong. How about no.

Also, condemning the DLC when you really know next to nothing about it is hardly the sign of an open mind.

I could reply that refusing to watch a video that will help explain just what is wrong with the ending is hardly a sign of an open mind as well. Ignorance is bliss, right?

No. What you are doing, to put it into comparison, is putting your foot between the door and try to explain why we are wrong in getting satisfaction from the game/ ending as it is. Essentially, you are preaching, like a Jehova's Witness where we as a-theists prefer to be left alone because we have made up our minds. Not only that, but you call us narrowminded for not wanting to be convinced.

Sure, yuo allow us to convince us you're wrong after seeing your "evidence". But look at your own reaction, including to the DLC. You're not going to be convinced, mate, no matter what we say, even if we/one of us was going to invest time into trying to convince you. In this matter, you're an activist. Activists aren't going to do 180s. It goes against their belief-system, the one they're campaigning for.

The issue here for you is that you want to convince us we're wrong and think we ought to allow ourselves to be convinced, not because it will make us happier, but because.... well, why actually? That we too feel screwed?

The issue for us is that we have decided that there is no issue. We are OK with you being not OK with the ending. Your decision, and we're sad for you, but we're not going to invest time in converting you to our PoV.

Quote

Given BioWare's statements about clarification and expansion rather than revision, I'm going to continue to be paranoid.

Why paranoid? because the way I see it, if the endings were changed, would that wash the foul taste from your mouth? Would it make you magically forget the time you reached the end-sequence the first time and how you loathed it? Probably not. Then there is the matter that such an expansion, even when free, would do little to tie gamers to the ME games for anything longer than a reload of one of their saves. And if it were completely re-written, wat if the retcon was worse than the previous bit? Ever thought about the shitstorm that would cause?

Secondly, how many people have commented on content and ending and on how it should be? Should BioWare stick to one of those, or invent their own, or maybe copy multiple? Then what about artistic license, copyright, and if the fanbase didn't like the ending BioWare chose? Copying fan-endings also sets a dangerous precedent.

So BioWare knows all that. They can't undo the past and let you discover the new ending with the same relish that you approached it on your first play-through. Even it is 100% fantastic and orgasmically perfect, you will still think: 'should have done this 4 months ago'. They can however tie in to some of the criticism and provide NEW content and perhaps win a few people over in addition to providing awesome free content to everyone.

Quote

EDIT: Just saw Morgoth's post. In what way am I being rude or lofty? Excuse the swearing, it's part of how I talk. I only become defensive (now) when others, such as yourself and Wry, are telling me that I'm being ridiculous. Okay, so you like the ending. That's great. You're reading too much into what I'm saying. I truly am happy for people who liked the ending - hell, I wish that I could have liked it.

Except that you are also trying to convince us it is wrong to like the ending, because there is so much wrong with it. And want us to spend over half an hour on finding out why it is wrong. Now, let's examine the issue here for those of us who like it:

1) we remain convinced the ending is OK. The chasm between you and us looms even wider. We also spent a lot of time watching that video that I could have spent reading Caine's Law (fuck yeah) or doing other worthwhile stuff.

2) We agree with the video/you. Ergo, we change our view and become disappointed with the ending, too. Our happiness is traded in for unhappiness and instead of smiling gamers we become malcontent ones.

This post has been edited by Tapper: 06 April 2012 - 09:15 AM

[Loki]

*sigh* There goes the traverse....



Defiance, I read your post to be nothing more than a post by a fan who didn't like the ending and couldn't possibly understand why anyone would. Just like I myself have made posts about how awesome the endings are and can't understand anyone who doesn't like them. The fact that this isn't in the Discussion thread or book threads makes everything you said fine - wrong, but fine I've no idea why everyone is taking exception with the way you phrased your thoughts instead of discussing the the game itself.

In regards to the game, I don't agree that the only way to say true to the rest of the game/games is to change the ending. I felt the endings were true to the game and so instead of changing them the best thing Bioware could do was create DLC that fleshed the endings out so hopefuly more people will appreciate them. I agree with Wry, don't go losing faith just yet - wait until the DLC comes out and then see how you feel about it. Bioware may surprise you and then you'll be over here in my Team Bioware Rocks camp killing reapers and kicking arse

[Morgoth]

Loki, on 06 April 2012 - 09:32 AM, said:

*sigh* There goes the traverse....



Defiance, I read your post to be nothing more than a post by a fan who didn't like the ending and couldn't possibly understand why anyone would. Just like I myself have made posts about how awesome the endings are and can't understand anyone who doesn't like them. The fact that this isn't in the Discussion thread or book threads makes everything you said fine - wrong, but fine I've no idea why everyone is taking exception with the way you phrased your thoughts instead of discussing the the game itself.

In regards to the game, I don't agree that the only way to say true to the rest of the game/games is to change the ending. I felt the endings were true to the game and so instead of changing them the best thing Bioware could do was create DLC that fleshed the endings out so hopefuly more people will appreciate them. I agree with Wry, don't go losing faith just yet - wait until the DLC comes out and then see how you feel about it. Bioware may surprise you and then you'll be over here in my Team Bioware Rocks camp killing reapers and kicking arse

Since when has common courtesy been limited to the DB?

[Loki]

It hasn't. But then I guess it depends on your idea of common courtesy. I saw nothing disrespectful in Defiance's original post. It was only after people started to attack him/his post that he got his back up and started to be less courteous. At least, that's how it reads to me. And so he used somewhat demanding language - there are multiple threads all over the forum that have posts by people saying that 'You HAVE to read this/see this/do this' and that 'I can't understand how ANYONE would like this book/film/song etc' - thread titles even say it. I personally can't see what the issue was.

Which is why I'd rather focus on the points he raised regarding the game than discuss the manner in which he raised them.



EDIT: I'm just about to head to Illos and...

Spoiler

I just did the Luna mission with the Hannibal VI that is actually EDI - I remember when I first played wondering why the binary said 'Help'. I'd forgotten about it since then. I love the continuity in these games

This post has been edited by Loki: 06 April 2012 - 05:03 PM

[Defiance]

Clarification about my clarification, because apparently my clarification just further muddled my original point:

I wished to provoke discussion about the ending. I was hoping people could provide reasons as to why they thought the ending was good, so that I could view things from a different perspective. I do not demand people explain themselves to me, and I do not demand that people hate the ending. I simply wished to reach some sort of understanding. As in, possibly, "Okay, so that's why you like the ending. Those aren't good enough reasons for me to love it, but hey, I get where you're coming from." As it stands, I do not understand where people who like the ending are coming from. Is it arrogant of me to attempt comprehension?

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I could reply that refusing to watch a video that will help explain just what is wrong with the ending is hardly a sign of an open mind as well. Ignorance is bliss, right?

That was said sarcastically. Don't take a single word there at face value. I said it not out of intent to rebut Wry's statement, but out of frustration that the point of my original post was misinterpreted and ignored.

Quote

I would like to get past this. If you continue to think I'm on a high horse, preaching with a cudgel that my opinion about the ending is right, and want to continue to argue about this silly issue, send me a personal message. I'd much rather limit this topic to discussion of Mass Effect 3, not discussion about the discussion.

This still stands. If you don't want to change your mind about me, fine, I won't lose sleep over it. I know what I intended, and apparently it was worded in such a way that allowed misinterpretation. I am offering clarity in this post as to my original intent. You can accept this, or you can continue to make accusations. If you would like to do that, PM me if it's really necessary. I just don't think that the Mass Effect 3 discussion topic if the place for petty arguments.

As for why I am paranoid about the extended ending DLC, it is because I did not like core parts of the ending. My prime issue concerning the ending was not the lack of clarification, but the existence of the Star Child in the first place. I am certainly open to the possibility that the new DLC will make what is, for me, a poor ending into a satisfactory one. I doubt that it can make it a great one, due to my fundamental issues with the ending. But if it does? I'll be ecstatic, and probably all the more so for being paranoid. It'll be an unexpected, albeit extremely welcome, surprise.

I don't wish to provoke further arguments to further derail this topic, so I think I'll bow out of posting here. Loki, I'll reply to your PM with my views on the ending later today.


Thanks,

~Defiance

[Wry]

For the record I didn't think defiance was at any point out of order. I just felt he was entrenched as hating the ending, and the post I replied to a bit evangelical. But there was no disrespect or personal attacks. And he's right, let's not argue about arguing. That's what rep and PMs are for.

[Jade-Green Pig-Hog Swine-Beast]

So, I'm a believer of the indoctrination theory—I think it's the only way that the ending to Mass Effect could possibly make sense and, to me, the subtleness of it is what makes it so awesome. Therefore, I like the ending. I do, however, acknowledge the fact that if one was to disagree with said indoctrination theory and/or simply take the end sequence at face value, then there are some massive flaws in it, so much so that I find it impossible to believe that Bioware could even produce such a strange, disconnected and nonsensical ending, either without realising what they'd done or deliberately.

What does trouble me is that, as far as I'm aware, the indoctrination theory has neither been confirmed or dismissed by Bioware. Should Bioware publicly announce that "No, the indoctrination theory is wrong!" then I wouldn't be able to ignore them regardless and continue on in my own happy reality; instead, I'd have to accept the ending as being crap and that would be disappointing.

I did watch that video and I think that it makes very valid points as to why the ending might appear to be crap, so I guess what I'm really trying to say is that if you take the ending for what's on the surface, then yes, it's pretty bad BUT if you buy into the theory that Shepard is being indoctrinated, then everything snaps into place and suddenly it becomes the most clever piece of awesomesauce ever.

The only question left—for me, at least—is who's right and who's wrong? From this point of view, a little bit of clarification would be nice but that's all...the end doesn't need to be rewritten totally because I reckon that that would actually do more harm than good. As Tapper (I think) said, it'll never change the fact that the original ending flopped and no one will forget that, so why even bother? It's like rewriting the end of The Lord of the Rings, or something, and just hoping that the shitload of people who read the original version will just forget about it.

Regardless, the DLC should be interesting, so I'm looking forward to that.

This post has been edited by Jade-Green Pig-Hog Swine-Beast: 06 April 2012 - 11:42 PM

[Loki]

There is NO WAY to stop a romance in ME1 once the game says you are romancing them - I just asked Kaidan about his past!!!

Well, at least I had the option to delay sex til AFTER the mission.....hopefully that will stop any awkward moments in ME3.

It's hard being so irresistible.



EDIT: Also, Mass Effect 3 - Multiplayer DLC - Resurgence Pack. Free for ME3 owners. Out April 10th. Includes new maps, characters and weapons.

This post has been edited by Loki: 07 April 2012 - 04:57 AM

[Loki]

Hell yeah, bitches!!!!


 2012-04-07 13.23.18.jpg (115.07K)
Number of downloads: 0

[Ulrik]

Loki, on 07 April 2012 - 02:30 AM, said:

There is NO WAY to stop a romance in ME1 once the game says you are romancing them - I just asked Kaidan about his past!!!

Well, at least I had the option to delay sex til AFTER the mission.....hopefully that will stop any awkward moments in ME3.

It's hard being so irresistible.

I dumped Miranda and it was hard as hell...

[Eltar]

I thought that the hardest part about ME3's story was actually the romance part. Every character whom Shepard could have a romance with (except for Kaidan, whom I will always despise) - including past romances- had been given such great growth and development that I was left wishing that I could create a harem - for both Shepard sexes - a complete and utter first for me, as I have always had definite opinions about the romance options in the past (with Tali and Thane being the two I preferred my Shepard to romance). I personally think that Bioware did an exception job in that area. Even Liara, whom I was never a fan of, grew on me, and I was kind of sad that I hadn't picked her as my romance option on my first run through.

Spoiler

Although I picked her little dialogue scene where I viewed eternity with her by accident and am now wondering if we made a baby...

[Eltar]

Thanks to their lovely policies and the recent gamer hate over the end of ME3, EA has been voted as being the worst company in the U.S.

[Garak]

Started playing ME 1 again. Will do another play of all three so that by the time I finish ME3 the end DLC should be out. Hopefully.