[king in chains]

Crustaceous Apt, on 02 November 2013 - 07:32 PM, said:

The second game made and broke the series in my opinion. It was a much better videogame but it sacrificed a great and balanced discussion on right and wrong, power and sacrifice for black and white stories about good guy assassins fighting evil rich fat guys.

It also traded out a difficult but extremely rewarding fighting system for what now equates to counter kill combos that are meant to make you feel invincible instead of competent.

In my opinion the first game was the best one and every subsequent game has diluted the true strengths of the series.

[king in chains]

i have to admit that apts reasoning has swayed me

[Silencer]

Crustaceous Apt, on 02 November 2013 - 07:32 PM, said:

The second game made and broke the series in my opinion. It was a much better videogame but it sacrificed a great and balanced discussion on right and wrong, power and sacrifice for black and white stories about good guy assassins fighting evil rich fat guys.

It also traded out a difficult but extremely rewarding fighting system for what now equates to counter kill combos that are meant to make you feel invincible instead of competent.

In my opinion the first game was the best one and every subsequent game has diluted the true strengths of the series.

I actually more or less agree. The only thing is that while the combat in 1 took some getting used to, it was also more or less a case of "counter = win". If you got that right nothing else really mattered. Oh, and throwing knives. Throwing knives were also kickass. The sequels just made it easier to take out multiple people which, while not exactly in the spirit of "assassins" and stealth, was a pretty logical gameplay evolution. I would much rather they had amped up the "social stealth" aspect and made you choose between going around town as a walking arms factory, but attracting tons of attention, or going in with few tools and weapons but being able to stealth more effectively. As it was, stealth had to be forced into the equation for it to even be relevant to the gameplay for the majority of the franchise, even the first one.

But yeah, mostly agree in that it 'perfected' the formula of the gameplay and threw out a lot of the gray areas the first one did so well.

I may still get ACIV though, because PIRATE! And because I haven't really played ACIII due to not being able to get into it - burnout from too many AC games which, on the balance, kind of disappoint, especially when I think about what they could have been. *sigh*

[Traveller]

Yeah, the first one became very easy combat-wise once you mastered the counter. The big brawl at the end was basically just a matter of hitting counter/attack repeatedly.

My main disappointment is with the animus concept. I can see why they wanted to add another dimension to the game, but I just find it clunky and intrusive, and undermines all the work that has gone into making realistic historic environments.

Those 'walls' around areas, the loading screen matrix style and the constant flickering in and out of synch really pisses me off when I'm playing. I wish they'd ditched the whole concept after the first game, and just let you play as different assassins in different times without having to link it all together with a really, really dull story about apples and lost artifacts.

Those beautiful locations with a bunch of upgrades, properties and assassin missions would have made me very happy on their own. That's another thing I liked about the first one actually... get a target, find out where he lives and works, then go and kill him.

You know, like an assassin..

This post has been edited by Traveller: 03 November 2013 - 11:28 AM

[king in chains]

traveller makes a good point ,the apple story was weak

[Traveller]

Ok, so my curiosity was piqued.

After an initial typically-ac setup (which included a couple of fairly straight forward introductory missions), I now have a ship, a crew, and a busy map to explore.

So far the animus element has been very low profile, and since I just caught some sharks (via a harpooning mini game), I've been able to craft a shark Hunter outfit which even does away with the whole AC hooded costume, which looked a bit out of place on a pirate ship.

The crafting is done in a similar way to Far Cry 3, and after a fight with a hammerhead shark I'm looking forward to seeing what the bigger sharks and whales look like. (You can upgrade the hunting boat too, with better harpoons etc for the bigger stuff).

Almost everything on board can be upgraded, and you can head off with treasures maps, assassin contracts, or just take out ships for the supplies of cotton, sugar and all that. It's pretty busy at sea really, there's usually something floating, sailing or swimming by.. unrealistic maybe but avoids periods of inactivity which some might get impatient with.

There's lots to collect, and this time it's not all pointless flags or anything... treasure, plans for ship upgrades, figureheads, craft items, even sea shanties which give your crew more to sing as you sail about. Which is pretty atmospheric. Shit, there's a lot to do here.

Oh, there's a main story too. Which I haven't touched on yet but will as it unlocks new items like the diving bell, which gives you access to the shipwrecks dotted around the map.

All looks great so far, the sea is beautiful, Islands look lush, and I even saw a rainbow appear across a waterfall.

Bit of a mix really of watered down AC (in a good way imo) Far Cry 3 (even down to warning bells on outposts) and Sid Miers Pirates!

It's still got 'synchronisation' which I hate, and I've already had an eavesdrop and follow mission, but now I'm off exploring I'm quite enjoying myself. I just zoomed out on the map and realised how much there is. Hopefully it's all fairly diverse and not just repeated outposts like FC3.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 12 November 2013 - 11:31 AM

[Aptorian]

Am I the only person who kind of misses the flags?

The fact that there was no map and you had to look high and low meant you did a lot more exploration than you normally would have. I think it inspired a lot more climbing and was far more rewarding when you once in a while came across one. Don't get me wrong I like that there are maps now I just wish we still had secret collectibles along with the known ones.

[Traveller]

Secret ones are good, I totally agree. I just would have liked some sort of usable reward for collecting them. I used to like the hearts in Zelda, that you'd find but couldn't reach without a specific item. You'd have to remember where they were until later in the game when you had a hook shot or something.

Black Flag has hidden chests with upgrades and such as well as gold; but they pretty much all appear on the map. It would be way better if they didn't. ... you'd really want to check out every little island and reef then with a real incentive. There is an option to turn off the map, but I can't imagine that many people are going to do that.

The handholding in these games is ridiculous. I don't know whether these games are made so easy to appeal to a wider market, but it's a shame that true exploration isn't encouraged in such a great environment.

(Also, I wish that in such nice looking games the HUD would fade or disappear when not being used... like health bars that flash up only when you take a hit.)

Played some more last night. The sea is pretty busy, so you never really get the open expanses familiar from Windwaker and Pirates!, which is ok but I wish they'd made a bigger effort with the wind itself.

Sea battles were won or lost depending on wind direction and strength, and motoring around with scant regard for it feels wrong. That said, is still fun switching from bow chasers and broadsides and mortars, while taking on a large frigate. In a storm. Like gta v, the sea itself is just great, especially when the waves get really big and you have to crawl up the side of one, and tip over the top.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 15 November 2013 - 08:13 AM

[Traveller]

No lock picking so far.

Just harpooned a White whale though! It was pretty cool the way it snapped the rope after a few harpoons, and left me scanning the surface to see where it would come up.

I missed out on AC 3 - I finished Brotherhood, and started Revelation, but it pissed me off after about 20 minutes in so I abandoned it.

I'm enjoying this one though. I now have a pirate hideout to upgrade, and a small fleet that can be sent on missions like the assassins in Brotherhood.

Hard to turn off as there's always just one more ship to take.

EDIT Tried playing with most of the HUD off. It is better, as you suddenly find yourself looking into the surroundings and not the map dots. Fighting in this game is as easy as ever, but with the prompt buttons gone, you at least have to watch what the enemy is doing before you counter.

Only problem is, when you turn off one element, you lose useful ones like the text telling you what was in the chest you just opened.. so you end up putting it back on again.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 16 November 2013 - 10:49 AM

[Silencer]

Traveller, on 16 November 2013 - 08:50 AM, said:

No lock picking so far.

Just harpooned a White whale though! It was pretty cool the way it snapped the rope after a few harpoons, and left me scanning the surface to see where it would come up.

I missed out on AC 3 - I finished Brotherhood, and started Revelation, but it pissed me off after about 20 minutes in so I abandoned it.

I'm enjoying this one though. I now have a pirate hideout to upgrade, and a small fleet that can be sent on missions like the assassins in Brotherhood.

Hard to turn off as there's always just one more ship to take.

EDIT Tried playing with most of the HUD off. It is better, as you suddenly find yourself looking into the surroundings and not the map dots. Fighting in this game is as easy as ever, but with the prompt buttons gone, you at least have to watch what the enemy is doing before you counter.

Only problem is, when you turn off one element, you lose useful ones like the text telling you what was in the chest you just opened.. so you end up putting it back on again.

Prompt buttons? What the fuck have they done to the combat system that it now prompts you what button to push to counter?! WHAT IS THE POINT IN PLAYING IF YOU GET TOLD WHAT TO DO ALL THE TIME!?!?!?!?

I know these days hand-holding is pretty stock-standard, to make games easier, therefore more people play them (and to completion), and therefore more people want to buy the next in the yearly installments. But when you stop having to actually play the game itself, and instead of watching what is going on you are watching for prompts, or looking at the glowing trail line that leads you to your objective, I really feel that there becomes no point in playing the game any more.

Honestly, it's going too far. The fact that this stuff is commonplace, and that actually working out for yourself what to do, or where to go, or how to get there is apparently too hard for the majority of people to be bothered doing, is actually concerning. How many people are driving their cars these days watching the GPS rather than the road? It's wrong. And stupid. But that's what these games are doing, too, and it's just making the whole situation of people NOT THINKING worse.

I know that in many of these games you can turn such assistance off. However, as you note, Traveller, you then lose genuinely useful information as well. Or, worse, (looking at Skyrim here) when you turn off for example the quest compass...the directions you get are insufficient to actually work it out for yourself! Compared to what it used to be, where there was no quest compass, but the directions were detailed enough that you could work out roughly where to go and navigate yourself...if they wanted a viable "more difficult" approach, then you need to genuinely put some THOUGHT into it and provide sufficient info in the alternative setup so that it works. Never mind that such should not be the "alternative" mode in the first place, but it still needs to be more configurable and/or properly worked out before hand if you only get preset many-features-toggled on/off options.

Just bloody depressing, that's what it is.

/end rant

[Traveller]

Totally agree there.

I call them prompt buttons; I just mean the red circle that appears over the head of an enemy that is about to hit you, which basically prompts you to hit the counter button.

Instead of, say, watching their body language and countering. There's also the buttons in the top right of the screen which show which buttons do what depending on the situation. And as they change as different options become available (like that all-beating counter move) you could find yourself looking at the map and these buttons and nothing else.

That's why I went off these games, as I had been playing Dark Souls before I started Revelations, and there's just no comparison. No map, no flashing arrows showing where to go and distance to objective - means you have to make a mental map of where everything is.

Hell, even Zelda let you genuinely explore. And fast travel? Gah.

I wouldn't mind so much of they had a much more lengthy options menu that would let you turn off everything you don't need. But yes Silencer, why should the default be the easiest, least challenging option?

This post has been edited by Traveller: 17 November 2013 - 07:52 AM

[Traveller]

Me too. The water effects, plants in the breeze, lighting and little details like rainbows in the waterfall and fish scattering when you dive in the sea all look great already on current gen - and these are the areas that are supposed to be improved.

Personally I'm looking forward to the reduction in loading times between areas.

[Jakovasaurus]

[twelve]

So I finished the first AC game last night. I feel a bit cheated. Seriously that was the ending? That was more of a cliffhanger than an ending. It left more questions than answers, didn't resolve the story at all. And what was the purpose of the damn bathroom!!!! I went in there every opportunity and there was nothing to do other than pretend I had to take my morning piss.

[Aptorian]

The desmond stuff is nothing but one cliffhanger after another. It only gets worse as you continue through the series.

[Rictus]

I just wish I could somehow turn off those bloody tutorials at the start; the pop-ups totally ruin the immersion. Other than that, Black Flag looks pretty interesting

Edit: Oh never mind, I'm an idiot. Didn't see the option.

This post has been edited by Rictus: 20 November 2013 - 01:35 PM

[MTS]

Crustaceous Apt, on 19 November 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

The desmond stuff is nothing but one cliffhanger after another. It only gets worse as you continue through the series.

Indeed. In fact, this series would have benefited immensely by not having Desmond or the Animus in it at all. The Templar/Assassin stuff worked very well in the first game (and made for an uncommonly decent and intelligent story), but they ruined the rest by shoehorning those organisations into anachronistic time periods, to the point where it's turned a once-promising story into one that is laughably simplistic and cliche, and not engaging at all. These games would work much better as historical sandboxes with self-contained stories, because really, the sandbox is what attracts the vast majority of people to these games. That would also mean leaving out the 'science-fiction' aspect of it (i.e. Pieces of Eden), which like the stupid story ruins the immersion of free-running through (somewhat) plausible history.

If you must have the Animus as a framing device though, all they needed to do was make it like in Acts of Caine, with people plugging in to live the lives of others in a virtual world. That would have solved the need for a convoluted, over-arching meta-story and put the focus where it belonged: on the historical side of things.

This post has been edited by MTS: 19 November 2013 - 04:59 PM

[Aptorian]

MTS, on 19 November 2013 - 04:57 PM, said:

If you must have the Animus as a framing device though, all they needed to do was make it like in Acts of Caine, with people plugging in to live the lives of others in a virtual world. That would have solved the need for a convoluted, over-arching meta-story and put the focus where it belonged: on the historical side of things.

I agree with this. In fact reading the Acts of Cain one of the things that struck me about the books was that they would work incredibly well as a videogame. Especially in terms of explaining away things like a HUD and strange equipment and abilities of the player as sensor equipment implanted by the Studio and props and nanomachines brought in from Earth.

How ever I've never been bothered by the Animus and Desmond story stuff. In fact I would go so far as to say that this stuff is far more interesting than the badly written historical fiction. The problem with the sci-fi storyline is that it is criminally underused.

Spoiler

The fact that you are inside a computer should mean that you could actually hack the memory and alter events inside your mind to help yourself out. Basically, they should extend the idea of the Subject 14 stuff, to mean that you could break the world in places. Create a door where there was none. Brick up an alley to escape the guard. Freaking erase people if you want.

The pieces of Eden, along with other post-human stuff, should figure much more prominently in the story. The bad guys who have the apples should be using them to control the masses and defend themselves against Assassination attempts. Vice versa the Assassins should have anti-piece of eden stuff on them to protect themselves from the powers of the orbs. There should be end game sections where Ezio gets the Apple and uses it as a special power in critical situations the same way he is able to summon assassins and call in arrow attacks.

Generally speaking the stuff about these Atlanteans or what ever they are should pop up more prominently in past and present. Just like there are powers guiding the Assassins there should be powers guiding the Templars.

But truth be told the real problem for the series is that the stories and characters are piss poor. Assassins Creed is one of the worst examples of mediocre story writing being greenlit again and again by studios who are more interested in polygons and frame rates than the story stuff that is supposed to glue the gameplay together.

[Traveller]

I thought of Caine during the Black Flag intro... As the new story, post-Desmond, is set in a company that is using Animus tech as a form of entertainment.

The games just do not need the poor Assassin story to link them. Black Flag, as a pirate sandbox, works quite well. Which makes the AC staples such as the hooded costume, the search for Animus fragments and silly 'tail the bad guy' missions stand out even more.

Remove them, and add a working economy and trade system and the ability to keep and sail captured ships, and it would be amazing.

[Rictus]

Traveller, on 19 November 2013 - 08:16 PM, said:

Remove them, and add a working economy and trade system and the ability to keep and sail captured ships, and it would be amazing.

Agreed, that would be absolutely amazing. This comes damn close but it's just not the same, graphics-wise and all. A combination of AC4 and that would be pretty ideal, I think.