[Aptorian]

http://www.boingboin...go-to-mars.html

Quote

Would you go to Mars and never come back?

The big cost of traveling to Mars is in the coming back. Solution: Don't come back.

It's not a popular plan. Yet. But the basic idea—admitting that what we really want to do is colonize other worlds, and switching goals from exploration to permanent settlement—is starting to be openly discussed, says Popular Science. There's a paper on the subject in the Journal of Cosmology. And NASA and DARPA have started work on a project to build a "100 Year Starship". (Although, to be fair, they're not going to get very far on $1,100,000.)

Also interesting: One of the authors of the Cosmology paper says he'd go—but only after his kids were grown. Seems to me, if a colony of space Pilgrims was going to succeed in any meaningful way, it would need to include kids. Or, at least, couples and potential couples of child-bearing age. After all, you're going to become somewhat emotionally disconnected from Earth pretty quick out there. And who else are you building your Martian colony for?

What do you guys think? Would you go? Would you take your kids? Could you talk your spouse into it? Bearing in mind, we're talking real pioneering conditions here: "They would get periodic supply missions, but they would be expected to fend for themselves for water, shelter, nutrients and mineral/chemical processing. They would be expected to develop some kind of homegrown Martian industry."

If I'm being more honest, and less Walter Mitty, I'm not sure I could do it.

Well, would you?

Thinking about it, I definitely think it would be... interesting. But being the first couple of guys up there would probably also suck.

But consider that earths media could be beamed up to you, with a short delay, and you would be a pioneer setting up the foundation for future colonization. Exploring a dead world, creating a settlement, building a garden, beginning to talk with yourself, planning to kill your neighbours. All the good stuff from the classic sci-fi stories.

[Obdigore]

You know what. I would.

That is assuming my GF would go, which is highly debatable.

I think it would be fun. I assume there would be an awful lot of training beforehand, as you are going to need say ... 2000 colonists, all experts in 1 field and 'good' in 3+ others?

It would be quite the expedition

[Aptorian]

Obdigore, on 02 November 2010 - 06:33 PM, said:

You know what. I would.

That is assuming my GF would go, which is highly debatable.

I think it would be fun. I assume there would be an awful lot of training beforehand, as you are going to need say ... 2000 colonists, all experts in 1 field and 'good' in 3+ others?

It would be quite the expedition

I don't imagine the first expeditions would be anything that size. I think it would be a lot of machinery and raw materials and a small team. Instead of having them all be doctorates in all kinds of branches, you'd just want them to be able to put together the lego pieces that were already designed for easy construction back on earth.

Set automated machinery up to begin digging and tiling earth, recovering resources, setting up small bases across the surface, etc. and just have the human beings there to keep an eye on things. Think a scenario like "Moon". Where the guy is just basically a janitor. What ever is needed is sent there or created with some 3D printers.

[Obdigore]

But is that a 'colony'?

The 'colony' would have to be self-sustaining and able to grow in people size, while either terraforming or building new living 'pods' or 'structures'.

If we are going to do it, do it well. Send 2000-5000 people, with plants and water. Quickly setup small towns and get the mining and food production going.

Do it right the first time instead of sending timid crappy teams that won't work well or will break down.

[HiddenOne]

I think it sounds like Apt wants to go and play real-life Minecraft in outer space.


Come to think of it, it may not be such a bad idea.


I think madness would be the probable outcome. Lots of madness.

[Gothos]

I doubt it, as long as my parents and sister are still alive, and I have good contact with my friends. I don't see myself leaving that behind.
If, however, some great love happened and she'd go, I'd... at least consider it. Maybe.

[Aptorian]

Obdigore, on 02 November 2010 - 06:42 PM, said:

But is that a 'colony'?

The 'colony' would have to be self-sustaining and able to grow in people size, while either terraforming or building new living 'pods' or 'structures'.

If we are going to do it, do it well. Send 2000-5000 people, with plants and water. Quickly setup small towns and get the mining and food production going.

Do it right the first time instead of sending timid crappy teams that won't work well or will break down.

I think we're talking about different stages of colonization. I guess it depends upon what level of technology and economic funding we're talking about.

What you're talking about would be some big arc ship type colony which by today's standards would be ridiculously expensive if not impossible. Transporting that many people in one go would be an insane task. So, this would be a project for the future, when space technology and transportation of people in space has advanced leaps and bounds.

What I was thinking about would be the early settlement. People going before the big rush, to prepare for future settlements.

I think that is the point of the article above. We can send people to Mars today if we wanted to. It just takes incredibly long to go back forth and actually landing on the planet would be complicated. There fore making it a one way trip would be easier to achieve.

[Abyss]

Oh hell no.
If television and film have not misled me, taking a position as a colonist is one laser gun short of being a red shirt on the Enterprise. One way or the other you're going to be eaten, cloned, orally impregnated, enslaved, wiped out, mutated, corporate downsized, detonated, terrformed, processed, pureed, evolved, devolved, revolved, supphocated, shot, stabbed, or declared to be a dangerous revolutionary faction and then nuked from orbit just to be sure.

Point being, sure, there's a lovely romantic notion to being a first colonist on Mars, but the practical reality is that you might as well be a turn of the century British undesireable on your way to Australia, only without the breathable atmosphere and funny looking somewhat tasty giant squirrels.

[Aptorian]

But Abyss, what if it is full of stars!

[Abyss]

Aptorian, on 02 November 2010 - 07:41 PM, said:

But Abyss, what if it is full of stars!

yeah, look how that worked out for Dave.


Get back to me when they've got the first class starliner run and the Westin: Mars all set up and then we'll talk.

[Obdigore]

Aptorian, on 02 November 2010 - 07:17 PM, said:

Obdigore, on 02 November 2010 - 06:42 PM, said:

But is that a 'colony'?

The 'colony' would have to be self-sustaining and able to grow in people size, while either terraforming or building new living 'pods' or 'structures'.

If we are going to do it, do it well. Send 2000-5000 people, with plants and water. Quickly setup small towns and get the mining and food production going.

Do it right the first time instead of sending timid crappy teams that won't work well or will break down.

I think we're talking about different stages of colonization. I guess it depends upon what level of technology and economic funding we're talking about.

What you're talking about would be some big arc ship type colony which by today's standards would be ridiculously expensive if not impossible. Transporting that many people in one go would be an insane task. So, this would be a project for the future, when space technology and transportation of people in space has advanced leaps and bounds.

What I was thinking about would be the early settlement. People going before the big rush, to prepare for future settlements.

I think that is the point of the article above. We can send people to Mars today if we wanted to. It just takes incredibly long to go back forth and actually landing on the planet would be complicated. There fore making it a one way trip would be easier to achieve.

I disagree.

The next huge technological breakthroughs will come from space/planets that are not earth.

You couldn't see a numerous Corporation collective creating a large settlement on Mars or even the Moon, having each section work together while competing to see who does better and what they figure out?

I would be extremely suprised if any government in the next 100 years even attempts a martian colony, but I think that some corporations will before the end of my lifetime (50 years or so left... (hopefully)).

There are 7 non-government controlled spaceports in the US alone. Do you honestly think there isn't a driving need to mine an entire asteroid? Colonize the moon or another planet?

Until we get out there with self-sustaining colonies/ships, we aren't going to advance a whole lot further.

I know the US has no money to do it... China might in 50-60 years, but I would anticipate some changes in the Chinese government that might preclude that. Who else is anywhere near posed to do it?

I honestly think that Minning out the inside of an asteroid, with solar panels on the outside used for engergy would be the best step for us at this time. An entire colony on a hostile planet will be much more difficult, especially since we have the Tech now to mine out an asteroid, and then put it into a geo or sol synchronous orbit.

[Aptorian]

Oh wow, I completely lost my train of thought when I made that reply.

I was going to state that corporations investing in space would be the most likely backer for these missions as well, all though (before the financial crisis) both china, japan and the US stated plans within the next 25 years to put a person on Mars.

How ever, I don't think people will ever be more profitable than machines, especially for the purposes of say, a mining corporation. As our technologies get more and more advanced so does the AI and the problems they can solve. Automated mining operations with robot mining vehicles, automated docking plants for launching supplies into space, etc. all of these things don't need people involved. You just need a human as a back up to repair things if your back-up-back-up system fail.

Tons of humans on a colony a million miles away can only causes problems. Before you know it they are forming Unions and going on strike and worshipping the great war god Mars.

[amphibian]

The Kim Stanley Robinson novels won me over. I'd go. Within 100 years, any Martian colonist is going to have a higher base standard of living than just about any non-millionaires on Earth.

I do think that there'd be a middle ground between Apt's handful of initial colonists and Obdigore's over 2000. Dunbar's number is somewhere around 50, so I figure that's a good beginning number.

[Nicodimas]

Yea, I would and I would make sure no goverments of any sort followed the people up there.I am hoping by that time people get the notion of modern govt/all govt out of there head. We are really at that point of technology that there is no sense in having the govt around and should be making informed decision's amongst one another. Not rely in someone promoting some crazy interests that don't really have anything to do with what is effecting me. ( You must do this or this someday could effect you! Please cough up some taxes now...we will spend your money for you!)

I am hoping technology progresses to a point some people band together and just start leaving and colonizing on there own, leaving earth to it's petty problems. It would really take our species back to it's roots where survival is limited and life is short. Live in the day and don't worry so much about there long term future. It will be grand! The more you have to fear the easier you are to control, so these adventurer's will be fearless. This will be a true freedom. Cause really where does all this fear they currently numb your head with get you at the end of the day?


So yeah I would go to mars to get away from all these notions of things that are told to me that are supposed to matter. /grins

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 03 November 2010 - 05:30 AM

[Silencer]

I hate to turn this into a political debate (protip: don't), but while the source is perhaps biased:

Quote

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."
— Sir Winston Churchill

Is as good an argument against anarchy as it is against democracy.

[Mentalist]

Nicodimas, on 03 November 2010 - 05:26 AM, said:

Yea, I would and I would make sure no goverments of any sort followed the people up there.I am hoping by that time people get the notion of modern govt/all govt out of there head. We are really at that point of technology that there is no sense in having the govt around and should be making informed decision's amongst one another. Not rely in someone promoting some crazy interests that don't really have anything to do with what is effecting me. ( You must do this or this someday could effect you! Please cough up some taxes now...we will spend your money for you!)

I am hoping technology progresses to a point some people band together and just start leaving and colonizing on there own, leaving earth to it's petty problems. It would really take our species back to it's roots where survival is limited and life is short. Live in the day and don't worry so much about there long term future. It will be grand! The more you have to fear the easier you are to control, so these adventurer's will be fearless. This will be a true freedom. Cause really where does all this fear they currently numb your head with get you at the end of the day?


So yeah I would go to mars to get away from all these notions of things that are told to me that are supposed to matter. /grins

as beautiful as this, sounds, it's a pipe dream, Nico.
especially if you toss people into extreme conditions like colonizing Mars.
people will need to band together to survive. such proximity will inevitably create conflict.
the new society will need a way to arbitrate and resolve its conflicts. that will necessitate SOME form of government. it'll be efficient at first, because everyone will be forced to participate, guaranteeing good input, but if your initail population will start to grow, participation will be replaced by representation and delegation.

it's inevitable.

[amphibian]

Nicodimas, on 03 November 2010 - 05:26 AM, said:

Yea, I would and I would make sure no goverments of any sort followed the people up there.I am hoping by that time people get the notion of modern govt/all govt out of there head. We are really at that point of technology that there is no sense in having the govt around and should be making informed decision's amongst one another. Not rely in someone promoting some crazy interests that don't really have anything to do with what is effecting me. ( You must do this or this someday could effect you! Please cough up some taxes now...we will spend your money for you!)

I am hoping technology progresses to a point some people band together and just start leaving and colonizing on there own, leaving earth to it's petty problems. It would really take our species back to it's roots where survival is limited and life is short. Live in the day and don't worry so much about there long term future. It will be grand! The more you have to fear the easier you are to control, so these adventurer's will be fearless. This will be a true freedom. Cause really where does all this fear they currently numb your head with get you at the end of the day?


So yeah I would go to mars to get away from all these notions of things that are told to me that are supposed to matter. /grins

Define what "government" is.

I view "government" as an inescapable way of organizing people, resources and groups in order to accomplish public goals. Anything beyond a singular entity would probably run into the need for a government of some duration and type.

You seem to take offense to a government once it starts taxing and/or making decisions for people and/or promoting certain interests that you really have nothing to do with. Let us assume you went to Mars with a group of 50 like-minded people and colonized it. Since you all want a homestead and a nice view, you spread out a bit after the initial "nuclear submarine"-type phase. You all manage to survive, have kids, begin to establish social routines and pathways and live as you like. You've got your individual areas of expertise - some doctors, some miners, some engineers, some scientists etc. - and you engage in them to your heart's content.

Who establishes the schools for those kids? Who's in charge of the food reserves for when the Smiths' solar panels fritz due to the ultra-fine Martian dust? Who's in charge of the legal/justice system for when Pap Finn steals a grain crop and half of the Widow Douglas's water supply in order to fuel his alcohol-propelled booster stages so he can get the South Pole all to himself? Who negotiates the influx of further colonists? Who decides how much to terraform Mars, how to terraform it and what areas to terraform first? Who builds the windstorm defenses to cover the entire base? Who's in charge of the first contact with the LGM who live just above the core of Mars and find you squatting on their roof? Who negotiates how much power the community hospital/archives/school/defense depot receives from all individually owned solar panels?

I'm of the belief that life on Mars would be affluent, but that a government or governments are unavoidable. Politics come to play anytime there's more than one entity involved - even within a family or group unit.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 03 November 2010 - 07:03 AM

[worry]

Personally, I would not like to visit Mars even if I could return. You know that part in Total Recall with the three-breasted woman was fictional, right? Not in terms of the amount, just their locations on the body.

P.S.
Nicodimas!!!!! You don't know how much this board has missed you.

[Cause]

IS their a point of colonizing mars if we cant get anything off it? Whats the point of mining it if we cant get the resources back to earth and so forth? Unless its just to get rid of undesirable population on earth, in which case the people we would most want to get rid of are the least likely to be able to manage a mars colony.

[Tsundoku]

Could we send Tairy and all his fans? PLEASE!

EDIT: Ooooh, throw in Stephanie Meyer and all the Twitards (sadly that'll be a fleet of big-arse ships). They could breed with the SoTards and then we would have the ultimate degenerate mutant lifeform exclusively for hunting with BFGs.

This post has been edited by Sombra: 03 November 2010 - 09:04 AM