[Tapper]

@ Sinisdar:
Kate told him Luke was alive in ep 100 or so, when she kneed him in the balls - and Jack very, very much knows he shot Luke straight through the head, no doubt about that.

@ Ribald:
The drones are a good idea. My main gripe with that is: why would Mark of all people want to shoot the other Freak Angels? He knew assassination didn't work like that on him, and even if he didin't connect the power-up to his death, he knows the others very nearly killed him. We also don't know what happened to him after his exile, he may know they were all immortal before they knew, and used it as a trump card... that may also be why he revealed himself like that to Kate.

[Ribald]

On the subject of the latest cliffhanger.

@Tapper:
When they tried to kill Mark they used a mind spike and not a gun, therefore he might not know that they are immortal, only that they can't kill each other with mind powers, or that he was just lucky. There is nothing said so far that would indicate that he knows they are immortal. Or, he might not know that his increased access to the package was caused by the death experience. He assumed it was because he was practising with it (when he is talking to Kait in the house). Of course we don't know what happened when he was out in the world and he may have 'died' a few more times.

Although knowing Warren Ellis' love of screwing with people, it is entirely possible that not only does he know that they can't die, but also he wants them all to become uber powerful and that is why he is sending drones to kill them. We know that Ellis enjoys morally grey characters so making Mark out to be a big bad evil guy dead set on taking over the world seems a little out of place. Particularly as this bit of information comes from the rest of the Angels who aren't exactly level-headed or unbiased in this. So sending drones after them is an easy way to 'kill' them and have them become more powerful and also prove he knows more than them.

Mark wanting them to agree with him and follow him because he knows better tracks more. As a character I am assuming that he loves all of them as his family and although hurt and pissed off about being kicked out, maybe he wants back in and levelling them all is a way to show them that he knows what can make them better and trust his vision more. He has been out in the world and knows how bad it is and perhaps he has seen that something is coming and they need to up their game.

I think a major part of Mark is the desire to come back. He misses them but has enough pride and ego that he can't admit it. He still doesn't think controlling people is wrong, but misses the only family he has truly known. He is angry at them, hurt by them, but can't escape his need for them or his connection to them.

Ultimately though I think it will be the drones. Even though Connor topping himself could make sense in a thirst for the experience way, if not a thirst for power way.

Damn Ellis for his cliffhangers.

[polishgenius]

My pet theory:

Connor did it, for whatever reason, and it turns out the not-dying doesn't work for suicide.
That or Connor shot someone else. We're all assuming that's Connor's blood...

[Coco with marshmallows]

polishgenius, on 29 August 2010 - 05:32 PM, said:

My pet theory:

Connor did it, for whatever reason, and it turns out the not-dying doesn't work for suicide.
That or Connor shot someone else. We're all assuming that's Connor's blood...

but:

surely an overdose is suicide? accidental, maybe, but suicide all the same?

[Grief]

I just spent the last few hours reading Freakangels start to finish, and fucking hell it's good.

Regards the latest issue:

I don't see any reason it'd kill him, if he suicided. Also, Luke didn't mention any of them as not there when he died, which is interesting if they're the future.

I doubt that their isn't a way for them to kill each other-but I think convential means are out.

[polishgenius]

Cocoreturns, on 29 August 2010 - 08:04 PM, said:

surely an overdose is suicide? accidental, maybe, but suicide all the same?

Nah, it's only suicide if it's intentional. Although that's quibbling over terms - my theory being that not-dying only works if you didn't do it on purpose.

[Aptorian]

So we're arguing that their powers are spiritual now and not genetic?

[Tapper]

Aptorian, on 30 August 2010 - 09:43 AM, said:

So we're arguing that their powers are spiritual now and not genetic?

They were born as what they were, not made, iirc.

@ Polishgenius: tinfoilhead achieved a higher level through deliberately exhausting himself by trying to change the weather, and if he pushed himself to near-death or death-death, it was very much deliberate. One might argue that at the least the drug-abuse part of Arkady's OD was also deliberate (although probably not the OD itself).

[Abyss]

Tapper, on 27 August 2010 - 05:40 PM, said:

Nor does Connor strike me as power-hungry so why would he want the power-up?
I also don't think he is the type to have a gun lying around...

I dunno - his whole 'i must save everyone!' mentality and the practical streak he's shown a few times suggests he would keep a gun around, even if he hoped to never use it. He's still likely to jump in to defend Whitechapel and we've seen a few of the 'Angels use guns to do that.

Quote

...my money is on Jack, personally. ...

I dunno. last we saw Jack he was clutching his kicked nads and contemplating what Kat had just told him re Sirkka.

amphibian, on 28 August 2010 - 06:43 AM, said:

My theory - the body on the floor next to Luke and Cass is not a body and is controlling a person.

It's a good theory - i'm back and forth on whether Mark came in way more prepared than he seemed to be, or he was genuinely caught by surprise by Kat's resistance and Arkady bringing in reinforcements.

then again, i figured Mark had reprogrammed Kat while she 'thought' she was fighting him.

Morgoth, on 28 August 2010 - 07:07 AM, said:

...the key is his comment Connor makes about how it'll be Luke and Mark against the bald girl (can't. remember. name.). The way I see it, he's always felt a need to mediate between the others, to protect them in his way, right? If so, it's only natural that he decides he needs to increase his own powers to be able to continue doing what he feels is right. ...

This is a workable theory, tho i have to admit it seems a bit off for Connor to just go blow his own thinkybitz out without getting at least one of the more cold-blooded Angels to stand by and watch just in case (Kat, Jack or maybe tinfoil hat guy).

polishgenius, on 30 August 2010 - 09:34 AM, said:

Cocoreturns, on 29 August 2010 - 08:04 PM, said:

surely an overdose is suicide? accidental, maybe, but suicide all the same?

Nah, it's only suicide if it's intentional. Although that's quibbling over terms - my theory being that not-dying only works if you didn't do it on purpose.

Aptorian, on 30 August 2010 - 09:43 AM, said:

So we're arguing that their powers are spiritual now and not genetic?

More to the point, while it would be a great twist if it was Connor self-ventilating and it didn't work, if the package doesn't seem to distinguish and it did look like att the Freaks' were present in Luke's vision.

And don't forget gardener-guy (i always forget his and tinfoil hat guy's names) self-expanded the package without death/near-death when he took control of the weather.


Y'know, when you look at the last few events, re-assembling their house, taking control of the weather, teleporting, it does look like Ellis is setting up a situation where the Angels actually do have the power to correct the mess they made of England/the world.

Which basically means playing at being gods, which was always Mark and Luke's point.


- Abyss, happy in the new threadzone.

[Abyss]

Note:

Kirk is the watchman/tinfoil hat guy.

Karl is the gardener who controlled the weather.


And they're both white guys with shaved heads so it's REALLY hard to keep them straight. Anyhow i think it was Kirk who went with Jack to brainspike Mark, and it was also Kirk who sat around shooting Luke in the leg and for that we thank him.


- Abyss, ...also tries in vain to remember it's 'Kait', not 'Kat'...

[Grief]

Actually, wasn't it Karl and Kirk that went to spike Mark?

They discuss it really early, when KK falls asleep on the watchtower while kirk goes down-he goes to see the gardener and they talk about trying to kill Mark.

[Abyss]

Grief, on 30 August 2010 - 06:32 PM, said:

Actually, wasn't it Karl and Kirk that went to spike Mark?

They discuss it really early, when KK falls asleep on the watchtower while kirk goes down-he goes to see the gardener and they talk about trying to kill Mark.

I'm failry sure it was Jack and Kirk. Gardener guy is too passive and Jack was absolutely involved. Kait mentions it an ep or two ago just before she kicks him in the nads.

[Tapper]

Abyss, on 30 August 2010 - 08:31 PM, said:

Grief, on 30 August 2010 - 06:32 PM, said:

Actually, wasn't it Karl and Kirk that went to spike Mark?

They discuss it really early, when KK falls asleep on the watchtower while kirk goes down-he goes to see the gardener and they talk about trying to kill Mark.

I'm failry sure it was Jack and Kirk. Gardener guy is too passive and Jack was absolutely involved. Kait mentions it an ep or two ago just before she kicks him in the nads.

Jack didn't do that.
It was watchtower guy and tinfoil hat farmer guy who 'killed' Mark (episode 101, page 3, Kait says is was Karl and Kirk, god, this feels like I'm back in uni jotting down references). With that in mind, it is no surprise that gardener guy was powering himself up when he did (and how, by mind controlling the weather), and no surprise either that Kirk volunteered to watch Luke - those two are the wannabe executioners for the common good, where Kait cares about the law and justice.

This post has been edited by Tapper: 30 August 2010 - 08:52 PM

[amphibian]

Tapper, on 30 August 2010 - 08:50 PM, said:

no surprise either that Kirk volunteered to watch Luke - those two are the wannabe executioners for the common good, where Kait cares about the law and justice.

Kait gives lip service to law and justice. The intent of revealing the torture pit was to show that she isn't after a truly just system, but one that allows her to hunt criminals down and punish them to whatever extent she deems necessary as penance or retribution, while cloaking herself in the trappings of law and justice. She might be trying to work out her own penance for flooding England*.

Ellis might be trying to make some meta-point about how any criminal justice system is essentially a system of fictions that we all adhere to out of desire for resolutions to intricate problems of violence, offense and harm that always occur in society, but I do think that there is a "best possible system" out there and what we have now in most Western countries is a durn sight better than what used to be.

On a side note: how extensive was the flooding? Did it drown England or the entire world in general? I'm always wondering why there hasn't been a presence of peacekeepers or even landgrabbing nations in freakin' London?

[Grief]

There seem to be hints that the rest of the world is even worse.

I'm sure I remember that when Mark comes back he talks about how bad it is elsewhere-in particular I think there was something about time being screwed up. I may be wrong though.

I think that they're probably more or less in the eye of the storm though. I think it's Alice mentions something about never seeing Americans anymore, earlier on.

I'm wondering if they're actually going to be able to kill each other. It's going to be interesting to see where things fall now that they've been shaken up. I'm also wondering about just how powerful Luke has become. In raw power, it seems to depend on death experience and practise(though we don't know how the detah experience thing works-is it time dead, number of experiences, or just fairly random?). Lukes conversation with Kirk seems to hint that he's been refining it. I'd place him, Arkady, and Mark as the power-players at the moment, with Connor maybe being drawn into it. Arkady certainly seemed to think it was important that he stayed.

Also, does Arkady seem positively sinister to anyone else?

[Tapper]

amphibian, on 30 August 2010 - 09:14 PM, said:

Tapper, on 30 August 2010 - 08:50 PM, said:

no surprise either that Kirk volunteered to watch Luke - those two are the wannabe executioners for the common good, where Kait cares about the law and justice.

Kait gives lip service to law and justice. The intent of revealing the torture pit was to show that she isn't after a truly just system, but one that allows her to hunt criminals down and punish them to whatever extent she deems necessary as penance or retribution, while cloaking herself in the trappings of law and justice. She might be trying to work out her own penance for flooding England*.

Ellis might be trying to make some meta-point about how any criminal justice system is essentially a system of fictions that we all adhere to out of desire for resolutions to intricate problems of violence, offense and harm that always occur in society, but I do think that there is a "best possible system" out there and what we have now in most Western countries is a durn sight better than what used to be.

On a side note: how extensive was the flooding? Did it drown England or the entire world in general? I'm always wondering why there hasn't been a presence of peacekeepers or even landgrabbing nations in freakin' London?

There is caring and caring, and maybe I should have worded it differently.
I personally think she's not that cynical as you portray her. Rather, I think it is in the same ep where she walks around like in a tv-show, which is where she learned her detectiving from in sofar as she doesn't do it through her powers.
I think her concept of what the law is and what law enforcement does/should do is mostly based on how much robocop/tv-shows/bad cop movies she saw during her early teenage years, not on a knowledge of law or policing in actual fact. That seems to hold true for most of them (the doctor springs to mind as well), only with her, it is emphasized because she has a peacekeeping function rather than what most of the others have and do, but in a way, they're all romanticized versions of the real thing during our current time.

Kirk is like a medieval watchman, for example, Sirkka a mini-Bagwan minus the Rollses, et cetera.

[Tapper]

Grief, on 30 August 2010 - 09:42 PM, said:

There seem to be hints that the rest of the world is even worse.

I'm sure I remember that when Mark comes back he talks about how bad it is elsewhere-in particular I think there was something about time being screwed up. I may be wrong though.

I think that they're probably more or less in the eye of the storm though. I think it's Alice mentions something about never seeing Americans anymore, earlier on.

I'm wondering if they're actually going to be able to kill each other. It's going to be interesting to see where things fall now that they've been shaken up. I'm also wondering about just how powerful Luke has become. In raw power, it seems to depend on death experience and practise(though we don't know how the detah experience thing works-is it time dead, number of experiences, or just fairly random?). Lukes conversation with Kirk seems to hint that he's been refining it. I'd place him, Arkady, and Mark as the power-players at the moment, with Connor maybe being drawn into it. Arkady certainly seemed to think it was important that he stayed.

Also, does Arkady seem positively sinister to anyone else?

I think Ellis' entire set-up is that now they can't kill each other, and are also unwilling to send each other out into the world because they might come back with followers. For all they know, killing an enemy FA might be like handing out a trump card, and who wants to do that? I think the conflicts are going to be really mean and underhanded.

I personally think Luke is bluffing. He's a great mind and may have worked it all out, but for all we've seen, he's been busy doing nothing much at all except moaning and trying to get girls. And pants. I hardly doubt that was just entirely an act, for just about anyone was waiting for him to do something. I'd definately say that he seems to be capable of employing his powers in ways the others never thought about, though.
Karl gives me the creeps much more than Arkady, mostly because of what he has been willing to do, and how he and Kirk managed to keep that hidden from all the others. Those two seem to have an alliance, and I'd say they're a power block - and they're with two, right now.
Arkady's just... odd. There may be a genius behind it all, but what does she want?

[Grief]

What gets me most with Arkady, is that for someone who seems to fall as opposed to Mark/Luke, she certainly doesn't seem to mind screwing around with peoples heads. In fact, she's possibly worse than they are. We've not seen her show any remorse for her actions, or even recognise that she's mucking around with people's heads and it may be wrong-she seems to believe that she's in the right regardless. She's already messed with Lukes head earlier(to a degree, though not as extreme as Luke or mark), and now connors(Up for debate really, what she did to his head).

Luke's case is also particularly interesting, in that she said that he would've died in the near future, if she hadn't intervened. But given what we now know about them dying, this seems slightly more suspect than it did at the time. It's possible she just saw him die, but also possible there's a bit more going on there.

We know she's a bit crazy, and has memory issues. She also swaps between likeable and funny to seriously dangerous rather alarmingly.

As for Luke, I'm not sure what he's up to. I mean why come back? They thought he was dead, and he could have easily sat back, maybe killed himself a few times(since they may not have figured it out without him). Also, this could have potentially led to more trouble for them, certainly in regards to the Kait/Jack situation.

Maybe he thinks they're absolutely unkillable, and so has nothing to fear by going back and sharing his ideas, but that just explains why he wouldn't fear going back, not why he would want to...

[Abyss]

so it was Kirk and Karl which shuffles my opinion of Jack (and Karl) somewhat. Jack still hunted down Luke and shot him in the head but i thought that was building on a pre-existing tendency, while my 'gentle gardener' image of Karl is pretty much shot (see what i did there?).

Luke... the thing is Luke is lazy and a bastard and on some level really reluctant to go it alone or he would have left Whitechapel ages ago, hence why we first met him lying in the gutter with no pants. (plus he was more likely to get laid in Whitechapel. The power-up and apprent increase in intellect wouldn't have shuffled his personality that much. Even when he's soliloquizing he's a dickhead (thank you Miki) and there was probably some disorinetation. The real question is what happens when he wakes up again. Before he got his head ventilated Luke says he's probably the strongest one of them and no one disagrees. It took two of them to take him down the first time and Kirk couldn't do it even shooting him in the leg repeatedly.

Luke prsents one of the most interesting characters because he's not afraid to use his powers selfishly and makes the arguement that if there are no consequences, why shouldn't he? His whole 'i can mindrape and fuck any human i want and make it like it never happened so why shoulnd't i?' thing was sufficiently hideous as to set Kaz and Arkady against him on the spot but if he had been more subtle (ie: more like Mark) then he would have been more dangerous. Mark was recognizeably setting himself up as a tyrant so they exiled him. Luke could have been just as bad if not worse if he wasn't such an idiot about it.

Arkady... Arkady initially is frivolous and flightly and willful and also more powerful than the others because of her OD - she's still the only one whose figured out how to teleport. She does seem a bit more coherent after her drowning. Sinister...? I dunno, possibly just willful in a 'i'm gonna do what i think is right' sort of way, tho i remain curious whether she did something to Connor when she memory dumped on him. On a basic level i just figure no one who likes chickens that much can be evil.

[Grief]

Well, one of them mentions that Luke was always the most intellectual. He's maybe lazy, but then, I'm not that sure. I mean, how difficult would've it been for him to get pants? I don't think he got much of intelligence boost-I think that was there already. He'd recongised before that the others wouldn't come round to his way of thinking, but I think now may be getting more involved because he thinks their may be a chance of changing it.

With connor, it's not as if he didn't know most of what was happening-she'd told him, and he would've picked up all the telepathic stuff.

And yet, her trick seems to have made a big difference.

I agree that Arkady is doing what she thinks is right. But she's not exactly stable, and so I really wouldn't be surprised if what she is willing to do, without recognising it as wrong, could be as bad or worse than Luke or Mark.