[Thelomen Toblerone]

Fairly good film, but quite frankly I was more blown away by the suits.

I spent the whole time going "oh my God, LOOK AT THAT WAISTCOAT" etc.

If it takes me a year, I will track down who makes that waistcoat Arthur wears in his zero-g part and buy it, even if it costs like £500.

[HoosierDaddy]

Ammanas, on 26 July 2010 - 11:55 PM, said:

Maybe I'm just clueless or too old for groundbreaking movies but the one thing I thought was a clear clue he was dreaming everything were the kids. We see them in the beginning when we find out he's been exiled from America for an indeterminate amount of time. So why at the end, when he's is reunited with them do they look the same size, same age, etc as they did when he last saw them? I thought they were just his mental/dream projection of a "happy ending."

The movie, of course, is purposely suited for both explanations. If, perhaps, you want an answer to this specific question, look behind the spoiler.

Spoiler

Casting info on the two sets of children:

Claire Gear - Philipa (3 years)
Taylor Geare - Philipa (5 years)

Magnus Nolan - James (20 months)
Johnathan Geare - James (3 years)

http://www.imdb.com/...ullcredits#cast

This post has been edited by H.D.: 27 July 2010 - 05:46 AM

[Gothos]

It's only opening on Friday here so I guess I'll only be seeing it sometime next week. High expectations.

[footbeat]

There were a number of odd things that made me think the whole thing was a dream. (Sorry if you haven't seen it, but I am going on the assumption that SPOILERS are allowed in this thread).

He was being chased by the Cobol Corporation, throughout the entire world. Why? Doesn't make sense. Is it because he became a renegade dream extractor? It doesn't really make sense.

Every dream extractor has a totem, but Cobb (the main character) had a top that had previously belonged to his wife. What was his totem before that?

Michael Caine's character was his father-in-law and a teacher of the whole dream thing. Didn't he tell him to "WAKE UP!!" when they met at his office in the university?

I think his wife's name was Mal (I thought Mol at first), which means BAD in French. She was French. Why would his wife be French, but the father-in-law be British. Not too strange, but still, considering everything else... The actor who played Mal was Marion Cotillard, who played Edith Piaf in the movie La Vie en Rose. The song used to give them the ten second warning was Je ne Regret Rien by Edith Piaf, which is a song about no longer caring about regrets. One of the main themes of the movie was regrets.

The conversation that Mal had with Cobb right before she jumped was probably the closest thing to the real truth in the entire movie. But I don't believe that Cobb even had a wife named Mal in real life.

The girl that he teams up with is named Ariadne. Ariadne was a greek godess that gave Theseus a sword and a ball of string so that he could enter the maze of the Minataur in Knossos and find his way back out. Cobb frequently tells Ariadne that she is designing a labyrinth or a maze.

All of this is too coincidental to not be a dream. So, when the top was spinning at the end, he had already resolved most of his regrets. He let go of Mal. The last was his children. They turned, he saw them, and... he walked away from the top. He didn't care if he was dreaming any more. He loved his children and that's all that matters. He had no more regrets because he had his children. Just like in the song Je ne Regret Rien. But do they even exist in reality? What is reality? Who cares, that's the whole point.

[Beezulbubba]

The totem concept was kind of disappointing to me (other then seeing how Cobb's totem worked - - > spinning top.... if it stops spinning then he is not dreaming).

I would liked to have seen how the dream architect's totem (Ellen Page's character) worked to indicate whether she was still dreaming. They invested time (movie was almost 3 hours) in showing that she made a chess piece as her totem.... but then that was it . . . it never came into play after that . . . .kind of a let down.

[QuickTidal]

Okay, want a new aspect/layer to this flick?

Check out this link about the score...it adds another dimension and is awesome!

http://chud.com/arti...CORE/Page1.html

[QuickTidal]

Beezulbubba, on 27 July 2010 - 02:07 PM, said:

The totem concept was kind of disappointing to me (other then seeing how Cobb's totem worked - - > spinning top.... if it stops spinning then he is not dreaming).

I would liked to have seen how the dream architect's totem (Ellen Page's character) worked to indicate whether she was still dreaming. They invested time (movie was almost 3 hours) in showing that she made a chess piece as her totem.... but then that was it . . . it never came into play after that . . . .kind of a let down.

Sorry, what on earth would showing how her or other character's totems functioned have had to do with the rest of the story persay?

Basically we know how the totem idea works....other than Cobb's/Mal's totem we don't NEED to see any of the others worked...in fact, it would have been ludicrous for the editor of the film (which, as you said was nearly three hours) to keep something so redundant and inconsequential to the overall plot thread in the film...let alone that Nolan would have shot it. It would have been pointless. How Ariadne's totem works is irrelevant to the story they were telling. If you really want to nitpick, I would surmise that Arthur's loaded dice totem would work exactly like he said when he mentioned it. He knew its weight exactly, that was how he did it and how it worked...but even then they didn't show us, and it only existed in the narrative to describe the use of such a device to Ariadne and get her to make one.

Now, if (for arguments sake) I were to REALLY get into the fibre of the piece, you could even go so far as to say that IF this is all in Cobb's dream (suggesting that the top continues to spin at the end and Mal was right and he is still asleep, or a vegetable) then you could even argue that the reason you don't see any of the other totem's working is because if it is his dream, then he wouldn't KNOW how the other totems work.

That said, I seriously just assume that the director chose not to put in something that would be such a waste of precious minutes in a film where every minute is accounted for with meticulous timing and pacing. It is just not worth the effort and is the sort of thing that bad filmakers would have put in thinking it needed to be shown, when it doesn't. They make bloated, overwrought films. Nolan doesn't do that. He is a clean filmaker.

[QuickTidal]

footbeat, on 27 July 2010 - 01:38 PM, said:

There were a number of odd things that made me think the whole thing was a dream. (Sorry if you haven't seen it, but I am going on the assumption that SPOILERS are allowed in this thread).

He was being chased by the Cobol Corporation, throughout the entire world. Why? Doesn't make sense. Is it because he became a renegade dream extractor? It doesn't really make sense.

Read the prequel comic at the official site for a little more insight. But basically yeah, he's taken what they made as technology for their uses (military defense stuff) and gone illegal with it to be a thief. They talk about it early on. It's pretty clear.

footbeat, on 27 July 2010 - 01:38 PM, said:

Every dream extractor has a totem, but Cobb (the main character) had a top that had previously belonged to his wife. What was his totem before that?

Nope. Not every dream extractor. Arthur tells Ariadne when he describes the totems that it was actually Mal who first thought of it, therefore she would have been the first. Before she came up with the idea, no one had that sort of quick definitive way to discern dream from reality, so I doubt Cobb had one before her's

footbeat, on 27 July 2010 - 01:38 PM, said:

Michael Caine's character was his father-in-law and a teacher of the whole dream thing. Didn't he tell him to "WAKE UP!!" when they met at his office in the university?

Indeed. Another little hook for the is it a dream/or isn't it a dream theories

footbeat, on 27 July 2010 - 01:38 PM, said:

I think his wife's name was Mal (I thought Mol at first), which means BAD in French. She was French. Why would his wife be French, but the father-in-law be British. Not too strange, but still, considering everything else... The actor who played Mal was Marion Cotillard, who played Edith Piaf in the movie La Vie en Rose. The song used to give them the ten second warning was Je ne Regret Rien by Edith Piaf, which is a song about no longer caring about regrets. One of the main themes of the movie was regrets.

I think it's clear actually. British teacher at a school in Paris. Not too hard to believe he met a french woman (the grandmother we hear on the phone when Cobb calls the children at home) and married her and had Mal.

To do with the music, and especially the kick warning music by Piaf...check the linkage I threw up a few posts up....it will make you see the score to the film in a WHOLE new light AND add a new layer to the curiosities!

footbeat, on 27 July 2010 - 01:38 PM, said:

The conversation that Mal had with Cobb right before she jumped was probably the closest thing to the real truth in the entire movie. But I don't believe that Cobb even had a wife named Mal in real life.

Now that's utter bollocks. Mal existed. She was his wife. That much is sacrosanct. Whether she died or woke up if the only thing up for debate.

footbeat, on 27 July 2010 - 01:38 PM, said:

The girl that he teams up with is named Ariadne. Ariadne was a greek godess that gave Theseus a sword and a ball of string so that he could enter the maze of the Minataur in Knossos and find his way back out. Cobb frequently tells Ariadne that she is designing a labyrinth or a maze.

Yeah, the characters are aptly named. I think you're reaching with this one though.

[maro]

I though it was fantastic.

So what if there were gaps etc in the plot - it's the first film I've seen in a longtime from Hollywood that needed thought to watch.

Love that music link - indicates the slowing of time.

Anyone else love the Ice Fortress? Was it all CGI?

[footbeat]

QuickTidal, on 28 July 2010 - 03:36 AM, said:

footbeat, on 27 July 2010 - 01:38 PM, said:

There were a number of odd things that made me think the whole thing was a dream. (Sorry if you haven't seen it, but I am going on the assumption that SPOILERS are allowed in this thread).

He was being chased by the Cobol Corporation, throughout the entire world. Why? Doesn't make sense. Is it because he became a renegade dream extractor? It doesn't really make sense.

Read the prequel comic at the official site for a little more insight. But basically yeah, he's taken what they made as technology for their uses (military defense stuff) and gone illegal with it to be a thief. They talk about it early on. It's pretty clear.

In every dream layer, the extractors were being chased by the dreamer's subconcious when they became conspicuous. I was extrapolating this upward. I shouldn't say it doesn't make sense, rather I should say it does make sense. They are being chased in the 3 dream layers for a reason. It is possible that the reason in what seems to be reality is the same because it isn't reality.

QuickTidal, on 28 July 2010 - 03:36 AM, said:

footbeat, on 27 July 2010 - 01:38 PM, said:

The conversation that Mal had with Cobb right before she jumped was probably the closest thing to the real truth in the entire movie. But I don't believe that Cobb even had a wife named Mal in real life.

Now that's utter bollocks. Mal existed. She was his wife. That much is sacrosanct. Whether she died or woke up if the only thing up for debate.

One can't dream they are married to a dream woman? If you believe this, don't take the red pill. I still think that Mal is strange name for a French woman. We can at least agree on that?

QuickTidal, on 28 July 2010 - 03:36 AM, said:

footbeat, on 27 July 2010 - 01:38 PM, said:

The girl that he teams up with is named Ariadne. Ariadne was a greek godess that gave Theseus a sword and a ball of string so that he could enter the maze of the Minataur in Knossos and find his way back out. Cobb frequently tells Ariadne that she is designing a labyrinth or a maze.

Yeah, the characters are aptly named. I think you're reaching with this one though.

I don't think that's much of a reach, at least in my world. I have a cousin named Ariadna, and both my wife and myself looked at eachother when Coll asked her to design a maze in one minute. Two things are associated with Ariadne in mythology, Theseus and the Labyrinth of the Minotaur.

[Abyss]

Ammanas, on 26 July 2010 - 11:55 PM, said:

...a clear clue he was dreaming everything were the kids...So why at the end, when he's is reunited with them do they look the same size, same age, etc ...

It was only about two years in any event.

Beezulbubba, on 27 July 2010 - 02:07 PM, said:

The totem concept was kind of disappointing to me (other then seeing how Cobb's totem worked - - > spinning top.... if it stops spinning then he is not dreaming).

I would liked to have seen how the dream architect's totem (Ellen Page's character) worked to indicate whether she was still dreaming. They invested time (movie was almost 3 hours) in showing that she made a chess piece as her totem.... but then that was it . . . it never came into play after that . . . .kind of a let down.

They usewd Ariadne to introduce the 'rules' of the story. The actual details behind her totem weren't important except as an excuse to explain Cobb's.

Quote

...In every dream layer, the extractors were being chased by the dreamer's subconcious when they became conspicuous. I was extrapolating this upward. I shouldn't say it doesn't make sense, rather I should say it does make sense. They are being chased in the 3 dream layers for a reason. It is possible that the reason in what seems to be reality is the same because it isn't reality.

Weren't the chasers in the final 3 dream sequence actually Millionaire Guy's subconscious 'security', as opposed to the reactive subconscious the rest of the time?

Quote

... I still think that Mal is strange name for a French woman. We can at least agree on that?

Nope. There are a few french names that 'Mal' can be a short form for.

QuickTidal, on 28 July 2010 - 03:36 AM, said:

...Yeah, the characters are aptly named. I think you're reaching with this one though.

The significance of her name is true, but more in a wink nudge way than as a hint it's all a dream.


Unless of course it was all a dream.

- Abyss, dreams a little dream...

[Grimjust Bearegular]

I loved it! That zero gravity fight scene was so beautiful and extremely cool!

[footbeat]

Abyss, on 28 July 2010 - 01:42 PM, said:

Quote

...In every dream layer, the extractors were being chased by the dreamer's subconcious when they became conspicuous. I was extrapolating this upward. I shouldn't say it doesn't make sense, rather I should say it does make sense. They are being chased in the 3 dream layers for a reason. It is possible that the reason in what seems to be reality is the same because it isn't reality.

Weren't the chasers in the final 3 dream sequence actually Millionaire Guy's subconscious 'security', as opposed to the reactive subconscious the rest of the time?

His reactive subconscious was trained to be militant security. But does this prevent the upward extrapolation?

Abyss, on 28 July 2010 - 01:42 PM, said:

Quote

... I still think that Mal is strange name for a French woman. We can at least agree on that?

Nope. There are a few french names that 'Mal' can be a short form for.

I think it is a failure of the imagination to not ponder Nolan's intentions with the use of this name.

[Abyss]

Grimhilde, on 28 July 2010 - 01:58 PM, said:

I loved it! That zero gravity fight scene was so beautiful and extremely cool!

Agreed. The way the whole reality tilted with the car was a nice touch.

footbeat, on 28 July 2010 - 03:15 PM, said:

...In every dream layer, the extractors were being chased by the dreamer's subconcious when they became conspicuous. I was extrapolating this upward. I shouldn't say it doesn't make sense, rather I should say it does make sense. They are being chased in the 3 dream layers for a reason. It is possible that the reason in what seems to be reality is the same because it isn't reality.

Quote

Weren't the chasers in the final 3 dream sequence actually Millionaire Guy's subconscious 'security', as opposed to the reactive subconscious the rest of the time?

Quote

His reactive subconscious was trained to be militant security. But does this prevent the upward extrapolation?

I think we're saying the same thing two different ways. It was always his subconscious but unlike previous dreams where the entire subconscious reacts eventually (like the rioters in the first dream or the crown in Cobb's dream where Mal stabs Ari'), this was a trained reflex expressed by the 'security subconscious' in all three layers.

Quote

... I still think that Mal is strange name for a French woman. We can at least agree on that?

Quote

Nope. There are a few french names that 'Mal' can be a short form for.

Quote

I think it is a failure of the imagination to not ponder Nolan's intentions with the use of this name.

Which is the point more than once. Nolan is deliberately playing games at various levels including by example the Piaf song, certain character names, imagery and so on...


On some level i'm horrified by the thought that a studio will throw sufficient dollars at Nolan to attempt a sequel to INCEPTION but on the other i'm intrigued. The MATRIX analogies are obvious: bitg budget sf film with low expectations succeeds beyond studio's wildest dreams, bit of a mindfuck... of course, we all know how that turned out... (this is where Apt usually jumps in with 'The Matrix sequels were awesome!!!!' and people ignore him....)

[Ammanas]

Stay horrified. Otherwiae...

--Ammanas, regrets the degree to which Abyss has become Apt-like in the area of movie evaluation.

[T'renn]

Just watched it, thought it was awesome

[Gem Windcaster]

It was so awesome I have no words.

Also, I'm not sure he was dreaming at the end. It was hinted very not subtly previously that for him, reality was a dream and not the other way around.


- Gem, reality is almost always about the perception, no?

This post has been edited by Gem Windcaster: 29 July 2010 - 07:47 PM

[Lisheo]

I have a suspicion myself that Cobb simply didn't wake up on the plane, definitely nothing along the lines of "it was all a dream all along"... It could have been a defence mechanism. Perhaps Saito never really survived; maybe he failed going into Limbo and rescuing him, and just... Didn't wake up.
Either or, the zero-g fight scene was the coolest thing I've seen since the Matrix.

[cerveza_fiesta]

Yes. Wife and I saw it last night finally.

My only regret is that I didn't wait to see it in a city that actually has a nice movie theatre. Seriously, our theatres are at least 20 years behind the modern standards of screen size, sound level and seat comfort. Hate watching movies there.

The first 1/3 of the movie the cliches were so thick I was thinking "why the fuck is this movie popular"

But they didn't dwell on the Oceans Eleven team set-up montage for too long (thankfully) and got to the point fairly quickly. Just enough character development that you gave a shit about DiCaprio and his dead wife...but not so much that it got boring.

Then the awesomeness began...and continued for the remainder of the movie.

Zero G fight scene ruled fucking everything forever. That was indeed the best thing since sliced matrix.

And the whole winter prison scene (3rd level of dream) was like the opening scene of "the spy who loved me" had a wild and violent sex orgy with Call of Duty 6 and the result was a perfect love-child of wintery ski-combat glory.

I was thinking the only thing that might give it away one way or the other for the ending (and I was too inattentive to catch it on first watching) was the timeframe between his leaving America and the time of the movie's events. Cause his kids are *little* and kids don't stay like that for very long. If he was away from them for more than a year even...they wouldn't look exactly the same as in his memory. At the end of the movie, he sees them exactly as he sees them from earlier scenes in his memory. The movie suggested to me that maybe he's been away for a few years since his wife's death, doing his extraction jobs...so the kids should have appeared much older if he actually made it out.

[Abyss]

cerveza_fiesta, on 30 July 2010 - 02:12 PM, said:

...And the whole winter prison scene (3rd level of dream) was like the opening scene of "the spy who loved me" had a wild and violent sex orgy with Call of Duty 6 and the result was a perfect love-child of wintery ski-combat glory....

Honestly it was one snowboard ride on a broken snowmobile runner away from being the best ski-combat scene since early 80s Bond.

Quote

At the end of the movie, he sees them exactly as he sees them from earlier scenes in his memory. The movie suggested to me that maybe he's been away for a few years since his wife's death, doing his extraction jobs...so the kids should have appeared much older if he actually made it out.

The trick there is we don't know whether his memories are accurate - he could be 'projecting' what he thinks his kids lok like. plus he was still in contact with Granpa Caine, who would have given him pics.

It's trite to state, but there really is no teling clue that swings the dream/reality debate one way or the other, because Nolan intended it to be ambiguous.


- Abyss, ...or AM i....?