[blackzoid]

Excellent D'rek, Excellent. We are on the same page ....mostly, (I liked Fiddler, the one marine who mattered)
God bless those KCNR. The real heros of DoD!

[Gothos]

I wouldn't quite say we can be certain Fiddler and Bottle are dead just yet...

[bubba]

I just deleted all the off track posts from this thread. Go off track again to your own peril.


Be grateful Abyss posted before I had a chance to read the thread again.

[Lister of Smeg]

I enjoyed the marine POVs even though a few of them were a bit samey, because I just like the characters. There are quite a few soldiers whose deaths will leave me a bit gutted. The fact they've been around now for four books helps. The Barghast were only introduced in this book and nothing that happened made me care about them. It's true that they may become more relevant after the final book, but I personally don't think they will. Unless something bloody spectacular happens as a result of their sections, I doubt I will reread them again.

That said, there were a couple of their scenes I really enjoyed. I couldn't resist a smile when Strahl made the entire centre of the Barghast army retreat (but then Erikson made the wrong choice by having Strahl make the same mistakes as Maral Eb before him) and then when Draconus wasted the entire lot of them I let out a little cheer. The only Barghast I like is Spax. The rest felt like pointless additions.

[worry]

I don't know if this is outside the norm, but I'm not of the opinion that every character or even storyline needs to have a point, at least in terms of the major CG plot. I've already mentioned my idea of why the Barghast story is important, but besides that I think SE is interested in people, in cultures, in the stories of history and prehistory, and in this series, how war manages (or fails) to infiltrate all these other facets of humanity. And while plenty of the story has to do with what's going down with the Crippled God, there's plenty of reason to explore the peoples of the world just for the sake of doing that. One might prefer reading about Egyptian history over Chinese or Navajo history, which is fine, and it's fine to not be interested in the Barghast, but I personally find value in just about everything I've encountered in the MBotF.

[D'rek]

blackzoid, on 01 March 2010 - 08:05 PM, said:

Excellent D'rek, Excellent. We are on the same page ....mostly, (I liked Fiddler, the one marine who mattered)
God bless those KCNR. The real heros of DoD!

I was being sarcastic - of course I love the marines! I just wanted to point out the flaw in Smeg-Lister's post, it being that everyone has different favourite characters and with plenty of on-going plots at once *and* the series unfinished, there is no "relevant" and "irrelevant" characters - its all a matter of opinion. Some people care only for the plot events and so anyone who sits and ponders philosophy is irrelevant, while other people live and breathe the deep philosophical musings and silly plot-pushing characters like Ublala Pung are a waste. And then there's everything in-between and plenty of other considerations that make what one person considers important and likeable completely different from another's.


...except for Ilgrand, he really was irrelevant

[Illuyankas]

Ilgrand is so irrelevant I don't even recognise the name.

[Sinisdar Toste]

the only person who could possibly be more irrelevant is the green pig. 100% red herring for buggs true identity

@worrywort: i think you and me have the exact same opinion on tMBotF. not a single part of it has not had some kind of literary value for me. the breadth that erikson covers allows for a measure of immersion that is unparalleled in fantasy and i would not mind at all a meandering tale down the jungle trails of dal hon, or through the streets of one eye cat or across the snow-capped peaks of perish. i'm not so intensely focused on seeing a resolution to story arcs as others seem to be. more content to take it all in as a whole and enjoy the nuance and interconnectedness of the malazan world.

[Lister of Smeg]

Sinisdar Toste, on 02 March 2010 - 06:01 AM, said:

@worrywort: i think you and me have the exact same opinion on tMBotF. not a single part of it has not had some kind of literary value for me. the breadth that erikson covers allows for a measure of immersion that is unparalleled in fantasy and i would not mind at all a meandering tale down the jungle trails of dal hon, or through the streets of one eye cat or across the snow-capped peaks of perish. i'm not so intensely focused on seeing a resolution to story arcs as others seem to be. more content to take it all in as a whole and enjoy the nuance and interconnectedness of the malazan world.

I would be perfectly happy with any of those meandering tales that you mentioned, so long as we met interesting characters along the way. I almost don't want a resolution to this series, because that means it will be over (barring a few sequels). I loved the little stories in TtH, for example, that didn't add much to the overall plot but were masterfully done and had so many excellent scenes (not least of all the death of poor old Murillio). I can also live with a few irritating characters so long as they advance the plot - like most of the personalities that Icarium has throughout DoD. Sheb, Last, etc got on my nerves, but I knew that Icarium would have a major role to play. With the Barghast, they didn't seem to have a role, and I couldn't bring myself to care about any of them. That was my problem with them.

Of course, it's all subjective, isn't it?

[maro]

D, on 01 March 2010 - 07:29 PM, said:

I am glad they are all dead now, so hopefully SE will give more screentime to the characters that actually matter.

They all matter for exposition surely

[Gothos]

Murillo's death in TTH is perhaps the most DoD-ish part of that book - what he did wasn't important in the grand scale, and in the end he was failing miserably on every front. It was as if dear ol' Murillo couldn't keep up with the world anymore. His story was one of senseless loss, so similar to most DoD themes. The way DoD demolishes numerous themes brought up along the series, it got me railing, disbelieving, raging. The decimated Bonehunters, brought down in a fight that wasn't even theirs - they were just in the way. The destruction of the White Face Barghast in a way that's just unthinkable. The needless war in Bolkando. It might be that a lot of DoD is just Awl'dan taken to the extreme. Rats fighting over a heap of trash on a sinking ship.

Personally, I'd love a winding tale of travel through Wu. More than one. There's just so much as of yet untouched, so much potential.

[foolio]

I hope we are done reading about the Barghast for ever. Man, I hated them.

[Sinisdar Toste]

basically agree, except on one count: there's still the gilk and spax, who, surprise! seem to possess working brains (when he's not lusting after Abrastal)

[foolio]

I am a little nervous of what Spax might do given a golden opportunity. I hope he doesnt turn into his fellow Barghast, he does seem somewhat likeable, but maybe he is just waiting on the ooportunity to turn into a "mass hobler". (I am sorry, I just simply cant read much more for "enjoyment" about hobbling. And cousins and former friends raping and beating someone. I just cant take much more. I cant I tell you.)

[Fox]

foolio, on 03 March 2010 - 07:59 PM, said:

I am a little nervous of what Spax might do given a golden opportunity. I hope he doesnt turn into his fellow Barghast, he does seem somewhat likeable, but maybe he is just waiting on the ooportunity to turn into a "mass hobler". (I am sorry, I just simply cant read much more for "enjoyment" about hobbling. And cousins and former friends raping and beating someone. I just cant take much more. I cant I tell you.)

I agree, I haven't and won't be rereading the Barghast storyline. Once was more than enough for me. Not that I thought it was bad writing, it's just to intense for me go back too.

[Tsundoku]

(Unwritten) history is full of pointless, irrelevant lives. People (indeed, entire peoples) who are cut down before their time for no real reason. That's life.

The MBotF is supposedly a history. I think at least some of it is demonstrating how truly arbitrary "nature" can be, and plays no favourites. There aren't many really happy endings in history. Hell, sometimes the only ending is a pointless, premature one.

This is part of why I like SE. Even when I don't like his writing. If you get what I mean.

This post has been edited by Sombra: 04 March 2010 - 09:21 AM

[Abyss]

I'm pretty certain it's not the case, but if it makes anyone feel better about the Barghast storyline you could just assume the Crippled God was behind the whole thing as a diabolical evil plan to deny his enemies the White Face forces. Again, i suspect SE was making a point about cultural self-destruct and weak/noble leadership, but the nasty turn things take is not so far off from what the Letherii Edur went through via the CG's influence that it's unthinkable.


As for the Gilk, even back in MoI they were identified as being pretty different from the rest of the White Face clans, so i suspect we won't see the same thing happen.

Btw, does anyone else take it that there are (were) the White Face Barghast clans, and then there are OTHER groups of Barghast clans back on Genabackis. meaning the White Face are not the entirety of the Barghast race/people, are they?

- Abyss, barghasteologist.

[Illuyankas]

Yeah, the Barghast that were allied with Brood back in books 1 and 3.

[Abyss]

Illuyankas, on 04 March 2010 - 07:32 PM, said:

Yeah, the Barghast that were allied with Brood back in books 1 and 3.

Wasn't that the White Face?

[Lister of Smeg]

That was the Ilgres Barghast. From what I remember, they don't get on with the White Faces.