[Abberon]

This is my first post but I registered simply to echo the sentiments of the original poster. DoD was by far and away the worst book in the series. There were others that I didn't really like a ton (I thought MoI and HoC were kind of meh) but DoD makes them look like masterpieces.

I realize that this is the first half of one book, but it seemed like so much of it was totally pointless. Way too much time was spent writing about the march and what the different Malazan squads were doing/saying. The whole book led up to the Bonehunters meeting something in the wastelands but when the confrontation finally arrives, they gloss over it for a few pages and then skip ahead to the KCM and KCN fighting it out in Skykeeps. I guess that was kind of neat seeing the KCM fighting their old enemies but I followed the Bonehunters and Grey Helms and KBT's the whole book and reading about their fight was the only thing that kept me into the book. To have hundreds of pages of reading tossed aside so that we could watch what seemed to be a minor plotline turn out to be the climax of the book just left me feeling pretty empty.

Also...wtf was the deal with Icarium? No, don't answer. I'll start another thread for that !

[Uli]

Hi welcome to the forum

I would disagree with you but then I also very much enjoyed MoI and HoC (ah karsa.. *fangrrrls*) so I think its safe to say we have different tastes. In fact I have loved every one of MBotF but thats me. I enjoy the characters and the world as much as the big fights and destruction and yes I also like the sometimes introvert philosophy. In fact I believe one of the series mix is Erikson's ability to write a story that is captivating and fascinating and interesting even without having to constantly having to reply on fightscenes.

I am rereading DoD at the moment and am about 250 pages in so far if you break it down quite a lot has happened.

We have the death of the Destriant of the wolves which gives us the wonderful declaration that 'she' will betray them and that they should never have sworn to Tavore.

We have the Reading that at least just sends chills down my spine whenever I reread it and try to figure out what will happen.

We have Sinn and Grub starting to explore the new warrens.

We have the Lehterii army actually beeing traned into an army and not a walking graveyard waiting to happen.

We have the Shake suddenly no longer having the witches nd warlocks and Sandalath's interest in them.

We have the Snake which gives us a horrible insight into what the bonehunters are going to find in Kolanese.

We have Icarium stumbling through a desert, speaking in the voices of many people without realising it and so far finding a skykeep in the shape of a dragon.

The KCCM are making a comeback and needs humans which is a development on the redmask story. Kalyth has been taken to where a dragon died and we learn a lot about the faith of the KCCM and some of the Otaral dragon in this.

The Errant is seeking out the other elder gods.

As I said it is a reread so I know there are a lot more things to come later in the book but so far I have not find anything that feels irrelevant to the story nor have I been bored

Anyways don't take it as an attack on you I think all I wanted to say was that I disagree and that there are a lot of thigs happening in this book even if a lot of it might not seem so dramatic at a first look

Uli (sorry about being repeatative, its hard to write interesting with a toddler trying to help )

[Abberon]

Uli, on 22 March 2010 - 04:51 PM, said:

Hi welcome to the forum

I would disagree with you but then I also very much enjoyed MoI and HoC (ah karsa.. *fangrrrls*) so I think its safe to say we have different tastes. In fact I have loved every one of MBotF but thats me. I enjoy the characters and the world as much as the big fights and destruction and yes I also like the sometimes introvert philosophy. In fact I believe one of the series mix is Erikson's ability to write a story that is captivating and fascinating and interesting even without having to constantly having to reply on fightscenes.

Thanks for the welcome! When I look back I actually think MoI was good, but it followed after DHG and that was by far my favorite so I think my expectations were unreasonable. As for HoC...It was just unmemorable. I forget what it was even about. Each to their own anyways!

As for 'what happened' in the book, I still feel like it was pretty empty in comparison to other titles. The books are huge (7-800 pages) and while plenty of things did happen, I felt like their was FAR too much filler in between . I have liked SE's philosophizing and I agree it has helped make the books unique, but there can be too much of it from time to time and this title suffered from an almost unbearable amount of it. Personally, I could have even dealt with that if the ending would have been satisfied. We followed the Adjunct's army for 700 pages, all of which built the anticipation for battle coming up, only to have it briefly described over a handful of pages.

Instead, SE forced Stormy and Gesler's becoming MS and SA for the KCCM down our throats in the last couple chapters and then he served us some abstract magical battle in the sky that the Bonehunters might as well have had nothing to do with. It felt VERY anti-climactic. The Nah'ruk particularly seemed kind of pointless to me, but that's another story altogether.

I will say, however, that your response clarified (somewhat) my confusion over Icarium. I actually thought he was a ghost :S

So Taxilian and FW etc were just all in his head? He was alive the whole time? I thought he was a ghost and his ghost possessed the Skykeep etc and that's how he controled it.

Maybe you could clarify a bit more? He was (is) my favorite character and part of my disappointment stemmed from the thought that he'd just been killed off and taken out of the series so lamely. He's still alive?

If so then that really adds some substance to the children walking through the desert to find the crystal city etc. They said the city was full of memories and maybe this would awaken Icarium. He probably built it to store his memories!??

This post has been edited by Abberon: 22 March 2010 - 05:43 PM

[Sinisdar Toste]

i think we have here a case of irreconcilable differences. when you call a sky-keep battle with giant lizards hacking it out beneath them and gigantic lightning strikes and two children burning some sky-keeps into vapour, a stone tree rising out of the ground to become an azath closing a gate that covered half the sky - anti-climatic, then we are simply not on the same page.

[The Seguleh 46th]

I would also say that this is my least fave book so far as well, but not for reasons of bad writing or anything of that sort. More a case of the sheer gloom this latest entry has. By far the darkest book so far (have not read RotCG, so can't comment there), but that may be by neccesity, i would imagine. The enjoyable banter between the Bonehunters seems less and less in this one, but maybe cuz they know they are marching to their ultimate doom? The KCCM are all about business, and Sinn and Grub are truly frightening children. So really, this isn't a knock against the book, as it is very, very good, but more a complaint about my missing some of the lighter sides of things the other books offered.

[Uli]

It seems that he did indeed build the city to store his memories.

Now on the first read I completely missed this key bit of Icarium information in the prologue (page 14 in my copy, just after we first red about Taxilian et all)

Quote

High above, a score of capemoths tracked the lone figure walking across the Wastelands. They had been drawn by the sound of voices, only to find this solitary, gaunt figure. Skin of dusty green, tusks framing its mouth. Carrying a sword but otherwise naked. A lone wanderer, who spoke in seven voices, who knew himself by seven names. He was many, but he was one. They were all lost, and so was he. The capemoths hungered for his life to end. But it had been weeks. Months. In the meantime, they just hungered.

So I THINK this means that in the beginning at least Icarium was alive but completely lost. Somehow these people had been caught up inside him when he started his machine and he had completely lost himself. If he is alive, or a Guardian of the Azath or what after the end however I have no idea. I guess the latter seems sort of likely.

Now I admit that I was suprised there was a huge fight at the end of this book, I had not expected it at all. However the Nah'ruk and their skykeeps appeared in the Imperial warren books and books ago and were clearly going somewhere (at least now we found out where). They kept popping up all through the book and they still managed to suprise me

The tragedy of them running into the bonehunters is that the bonehunters were really only in their way. They never intended to take on the nah'ruk, they never expected to even meet them and suddenly they are caught up in a battle no one had foreseen or expected and which had absolutely nothing to do with them. Sad and pointless, yes, but also completly in line with the luck of the bonehunters so far.

As for stormy and gesler I thought that actually made sense. Since they went through the warren of fire which spelling i can currently not remember they have been set up for something and for something pretty big. Now we have them as mortal sword and shield anvil to the large pretty darn scary lizardpeoples and so I am sure they will bring the KCCM east together with the remains of the Letherii army and the Bonehunters. I think I would be quite happy to have dinosaurs on my side in the battle to come

[Abberon]

Uli, on 22 March 2010 - 06:05 PM, said:

Quote

High above, a score of capemoths tracked the lone figure walking across the Wastelands. They had been drawn by the sound of voices, only to find this solitary, gaunt figure. Skin of dusty green, tusks framing its mouth. Carrying a sword but otherwise naked. A lone wanderer, who spoke in seven voices, who knew himself by seven names. He was many, but he was one. They were all lost, and so was he. The capemoths hungered for his life to end. But it had been weeks. Months. In the meantime, they just hungered.

So I THINK this means that in the beginning at least Icarium was alive but completely lost. Somehow these people had been caught up inside him when he started his machine and he had completely lost himself. If he is alive, or a Guardian of the Azath or what after the end however I have no idea. I guess the latter seems sort of likely.

Yes I forgot that. I remember reading the dramatis personae and not seeing Icarium and being really disappointed, but then I read this and I was like, "That's DEFINETLY him." But seven voices really threw me off.

Uli, on 22 March 2010 - 06:05 PM, said:

Now I admit that I was suprised there was a huge fight at the end of this book, I had not expected it at all. However the Nah'ruk and their skykeeps appeared in the Imperial warren books and books ago and were clearly going somewhere (at least now we found out where). They kept popping up all through the book and they still managed to suprise me

I think what bothered me was how they just showed up in the last 3% of the book out of nowhere and the book's ending was really just thrown together that way. I liked the idea of a 'convergence' and I was excited about that but I wasn't really all that thrilled with everyone just stumbling into each other. Considering how tough the bonehunters were supposed to be I would have really preferred to have had them play a bigger part in the fight rather than just being stumbling blocks for the Nah'ruk. From what the Shig'al was seeing it looked like they'd been largely wiped out (or at least the Khundryl had) along with the Letherii, but maybe the Heavies actually held them. Sadly this was not explained so we are going to wait a year to find out. Cliffhanger....blah.

Uli, on 22 March 2010 - 06:05 PM, said:

As for stormy and gesler I thought that actually made sense. Since they went through the warren of fire which spelling i can currently not remember they have been set up for something and for something pretty big. Now we have them as mortal sword and shield anvil to the large pretty darn scary lizardpeoples and so I am sure they will bring the KCCM east together with the remains of the Letherii army and the Bonehunters. I think I would be quite happy to have dinosaurs on my side in the battle to come

Gesler and Stormy went through Kurald Liosan (one of the few things I remember from HoC). I think we all knew already that they were practically ascendant and they're as good as any for MS and SA for the KCCM, but I didn't like how they kind of tossed that all together over a few pages near the end.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

The Gesler and Stormy thing wasn't thrown in at the last minute. A T'lann Imass called Stormy Shield Anvil in TBH. That's like ages ago.

[Abberon]

Bauchelain the Evil, on 22 March 2010 - 06:52 PM, said:

The Gesler and Stormy thing wasn't thrown in at the last minute. A T'lann Imass called Stormy Shield Anvil in TBH. That's like ages ago.

In the context of someone who has only read each book once (probably the majority of people), a passing reference 3 books ago is hardly memorable. At any rate, there was enough foreshadowing in DoD to lead us up to their actually taking on the roles, but it was still put together at the end rather quickly and conveniently.

They got snatched up in the night. They woke up and moments later they were leading 20,000 KCCM against the Nah'ruk.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Abberon, on 22 March 2010 - 07:05 PM, said:

Bauchelain the Evil, on 22 March 2010 - 06:52 PM, said:

The Gesler and Stormy thing wasn't thrown in at the last minute. A T'lann Imass called Stormy Shield Anvil in TBH. That's like ages ago.

In the context of someone who has only read each book once (probably the majority of people), a passing reference 3 books ago is hardly memorable. At any rate, there was enough foreshadowing in DoD to lead us up to their actually taking on the roles, but it was still put together at the end rather quickly and conveniently.

They got snatched up in the night. They woke up and moments later they were leading 20,000 KCCM against the Nah'ruk.

That's the point, it was supposed to be a passing reference. That way you can read them becoming MS and SA and be kind of shocked confused by it, but then in a re-read you realize it has been their destiny all along. And did you want Gu'rull to go snatch them up on Malaz Isle? The thing didn't know the existed until they got out into the Wastelands, and then it say them shining golden like beacons or whatever and went and got them.

[Abberon]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 22 March 2010 - 09:28 PM, said:

That's the point, it was supposed to be a passing reference. That way you can read them becoming MS and SA and be kind of shocked confused by it, but then in a re-read you realize it has been their destiny all along. And did you want Gu'rull to go snatch them up on Malaz Isle? The thing didn't know the existed until they got out into the Wastelands, and then it say them shining golden like beacons or whatever and went and got them.

From snatching them up to them leading the KCCM against the Nah'ruk was a total of like 5 pages. It was so quick and so rushed it seemed like he was just desperate to finish the book. I didn't mind the surprise. I just didn't like how we had like 670 pages of philosophy and then the part the entire book led up to was condensed and rushed into like 30 pages or less.

[worry]

I get the feeling that perhaps even despite the warnings that the book would end on a cliffhanger, a lot of people were still surprised and upset by the fact that it ended with a real life cliffhanger.

The BH/Nah'ruk fight was short and nasty, because that's the way it happened. But it's also left a bit open-ended in that we don't know who survived. You're kind of meant to have the feelings you're feeling, but you also probably should (not to get bossy) have some faith that SE's headed for a conclusion to beat all conclusions. I mean, there's a reason the survivors weren't identified. There's a reason Quick Ben wasn't given a POV in this book. There's a reason we were introduced to new warrens. There's a reason Stormy and Gesler kind of fell into their roles (not limited to their concern for the BHs). And there's a reason there was no epilogue. In the vernacular of video games, the conclusion of DoD is equivalent to the mini-boss of a level. It's serious, but it's only the halfway point.

Anyways, it always comes down to "to each their own" in the end; criticisms are welcome, no doubt. But I'm beginning to think "pointless" is the most over-used, misguided complaint about this book, and a frustrating stand-in for "I didn't get it".

This post has been edited by worrywort: 22 March 2010 - 11:27 PM

[Abberon]

worrywort, on 22 March 2010 - 11:27 PM, said:

I get the feeling that perhaps even despite the warnings that the book would end on a cliffhanger, a lot of people were still surprised and upset by the fact that it ended with a real life cliffhanger.

Nono, he was apologizing at the start about the cliffhanger. I was expecting that. It's the way the cliffhanger was handled that I thought was bad. A good cliffhanger can actually be pretty fun. This cliffhanger, however, seemed pretty contrived. The whole book was written mostly from the PoV of the Bonehunters, but then when they encounter the enemy and the battle we were leading up to the whole time finally comes, they change the PoV to what was previously secondary plotline material. The transition (IMO) was really sloppy and half-assed.

This was hardly even a cliffhanger. We're already given the resolution of the battle. The Nah'ruk were handed a severe beat-down. Lostara Yil saved the Adjunct and the big beasty guy from the Nah'ruk with her shadow-dancing (I'd forgotten she had that talent but w/e). Quick Ben didn't die.

We're left with a lot of questions, which I suppose is cliffhanger material, and definetly SE's MO, but the book was REALLY boring most of the way through (IMO) and for a 9th volume, which should be leading us to the conclusion, so many seemingly irrelevant plotlines were introduced, squashed and removed that I'm left wondering what the heck the whole book was even about. You're absolutely right about one thing though. I don't 'get it'. I 'got' all the other books, but this one has left me scratching my head.

I thought Draconus coming back was cool. I was pleased when someone explained to me what happened to Icarium. He's my favorite character. It was neat seeing the Elder Gods meet up and scheme etc....

On the other hand, this volume stunk of Robert Jordan syndrome in that I read 800ish pages of banter and prose only to miss the point of the whole book. This is probably an obscure and nerdy reference but if anyone has played Mass Effect 2 I feel the exact same way after this book as I did with that game. I don't feel like the story was moved forward at all. Again though, that's just my opinion .

We'll have to see what volume 10 brings, but waiting a year + is going to be painful.

[Erik Raditzky]

I can see your point, though the only thing I agree with was your comments an Badalles poetry in the ribby snake plotline, it was tedious to say the least. however, having said that I feel as if that part of the story paid off in the end, not only with the discovery of Icarium and the memories it held deep at its roots, but also with the way that Badalles poetry.......eventually......led to the complete and utter ass whooping of a few Forkrul Assail, who, until then had been viewed almost as "bogeymen" anytime they were mentioned. No one has ever been able to so much as scratch them, Not Karsa and his Teblor buddies at the start of HoC, there is even a quote from a Tlan Imass in one of the books which, although I cant remember it verbatum, generally states that even they had never won in a fight with the Assail. Think on that for a moment if you will, and then realise just how awesome and Unexpected it was for them to have thier asses handed to them on a plate, not just by a little girl, but by a half starved, half dead little girl.

As for the Barghast storyline, i dont think Tools character could have developed the way it did without it. Tool was trying to change the Barghast culture, he was trying to bring them into a new age while they preffered to wallow in thier barbaric rituals and viewed him as a coward. Tool refused to fight until the last, just before the Senan attacked, when he cut down that other Barghast just by twitching. I feel that without the knowledge of what they done to Hetan (brutally and disturbingly vivid) and what he believed had happened to his children, then there would have been no cause for the anger which took hold of him on hi re-birth as a T'lan, it was that brutallity that, in my opinion at least, convinced him of necessity (sp?) to just up and kill everyone in the world.

As for Fiddler, well, in the early books, I dont think he new precisely the nature of his gift, or there wasn't as much danger. remember Lether is described by a number of characters as being something of a hothouse for ascendant powers, there are, apparantly more than just the few we know about (and we do know of a few) lurking around the city and indeed the entire continent, it may also have something to do with the Holds, the fact that the warrens have only recently arrived in the are and also the new warrens created by Icarium. Besides, who wants to be a prophet, I hear they have a horribly tendancy to die violently.

Just my thoughts


(just noticed that there were a few more pages, this is a reply to the last post on the first page)

This post has been edited by Erik Raditzky: 23 March 2010 - 03:14 PM

[Hetan]

Abberon, on 23 March 2010 - 02:17 PM, said:

We'll have to see what volume 10 brings, but waiting a year + is going to be painful.

A year +? Where did that come from? It's going to be later this year.

[The Seguleh 46th]

I'm trying to figure out the "Ribbed Snake" storyline as well. I didn't mind it, kinda neutral really, as it neither entertained or bored me, just kinda felt more like a long-winded exercise in fear and defeatism from them. Which is obviously understandable, as i would feel the same if i was starved, hunted by freaky ass cannibals, and had flesh rendering locust-like things swarming in from time to time. The ease of her victory over the justice-crazed FA seemed a little odd though, as you think she just would have done it, but then again, maybe she didn't realize her own strength until it was zero hour? Who knows really, but i do get a feeling that they might be getting setup as a "the meek shall inherit the earth" types once the gods duke it out and choas ensues, etc., etc., etc. I don't know, just rambling really......lol.

[Sinisdar Toste]

every book that erikson has written so far has introduced new plots and characters. why should DoD be any different? and especially why considering that were moving into completely uncharted territory. irrelevant plotlines? remember redmask? how irrelevant did he turn out to be?

[The Seguleh 46th]

Sinisdar Toste, on 23 March 2010 - 04:40 PM, said:

every book that erikson has written so far has introduced new plots and characters. why should DoD be any different? and especially why considering that were moving into completely uncharted territory. irrelevant plotlines? remember redmask? how irrelevant did he turn out to be?

Yeah, he was fairly irrelevant, but he served also as the primer for the KCCM storyline in their hunt for competent humans to serve as MS/SA/DES, and slightly developed the Gunth Mach and Sag-Churok (sp. on both?) POVs. Maybe i overread seemingly "minor" characters too much in this series, but ever since that random anonymous gate guard who got bitten by Fid's horse in DG turns out to be in the Soleil (or is it Poleil? The goddess of disease/plague anyhow) camp and got shared page with Paran/QB/Apsalar and the like, i tend to think almost anyone is important! Lol. Its depressing sometimes though......

[Abberon]

Sinisdar Toste, on 23 March 2010 - 04:40 PM, said:

every book that erikson has written so far has introduced new plots and characters. why should DoD be any different? and especially why considering that were moving into completely uncharted territory. irrelevant plotlines? remember redmask? how irrelevant did he turn out to be?

Because this is the finale of the series. He's in the 9th book and I was hoping/expecting that he would start to tie the multitude of existing plotlines together into a cohesive ending, rather than go off on wild new tangents. There have been plenty of dead end storylines throughout the series, and I can get over that through 8 novels, but near the end it starts to worry me.

Redmask was another relatively irrelevant storyline yes. I wasn't particularly impressed with it either. I got over it though because there was plenty of other things that moved us along in that book (and I like battles!).

[globish rip]

I think he meant "miserabilist nihilist" which means someone who enjoys being depressed and believes in nothing.

lol no i meant what i said. i think the book evinces a life-denying focus on the dark and the dreary aspects of the ~human condition~ to the unreasonable exclusion of allllll else

irrelevant plotlines? remember redmask? how irrelevant did he turn out to be?

considering he p much rewrote this storyline twice itb quite a bit?

re: gesler/stromy. i think the ideal for these kind of things that theyre reasonably unforeseen but in retrospect seem preordained & thats not really the case w/ this. like sure i figured they might be important in some way but half the characters in the series have retarded superpowers of some kind & nothing about them or their story hints specifically @ the kccm. tbqf i had thought they were going to have something to do w/ the loliosan bcuz of the warren but *shrug*

But I'm beginning to think "pointless" is the most over-used, misguided complaint about this book, and a frustrating stand-in for "I didn't get it".

if enuff ppl dont get something whos fault is that?