[Fenner's Teats]

worrywort, on 01 March 2010 - 05:50 AM, said:

Fenner, on 01 March 2010 - 04:25 AM, said:

I agree if anyone is motivated to make this a conclusion worthy of one of the best fantasy series of all time then it's Erickson. Still, you have to let out those emotions. I need closure....I need it bad, I think we all do. I hope with all of my heart and trust we will get it in spades. I love the ending of this book....it's going to be painful waiting for the next one.

I stand by my point on some of the characters. The snake for instance. you are falling on the fallen to consume them.....at this point of the book they should all be insane or close to it but still the thought process was too clear for me, not gritty enough. I know Erickson does an incredible job of infusing grit into a scene or sequence, I still find it annoying that some times the characters are to concise to clear for where they are at...in their heads that is. It sometimes lacks grit. Most people don't spare a situation this level of thinking or thought in most situations, in fact the mind internalises struggle in a much different way...whereas in this book everyones thoughts seem fairly squeeky clean given the external stresss and struggle. I guess I am just saying that most of the characters in this internal dialogue sound too much alike.....too finished...too clean. This is not always the case, but it is many many times. I found in earlier books Erickson wasn't given to this to quite the same degree.

It's a valid point and could be argued, I am sure on both sides. It's how I feel about it.

I getcha, but I fall on the side that it's appropriate for SE to focus POVs on the characters with the most interesting things to say. The things you're saying are correct, but then you can fill in those gaps yourself with the masses of non-POV characters. Not to mention many of the heavies we hear talk but never get inside their heads much. It's simply not necessary.

For example, with the Snake we get a few perspectives out of thousands, and they are the exceptional characters. We see at least dozens of the children die from drinking from a poisoned well out of desperation. We see the kid with worms resigned to his fate. We see Rutt almost giving up. We even see the Brayderal close to failure. Badalle just happens to be an exceptional member of the Snake, and likewise most of the people we hear from or about in detail are at the head anyway. Hundreds of the kids down the line do give up, and probably several thousand of them are essentially walking zombies by the time they reach the city. That said, they haven't been at this very long at all, nor is their entire journey through a desert.

In other places we've seen the Barghast reduced to their basest level. We see Koryk nearly done in physically AND emotionally (and we can presume many of the other sick do succumb). We see Throatslitter attack Ebron over cheating in the wrong way. We see Lostara Yil worn down nearly to her core. Kisswhere is at her breaking point (her thoughts are shallow, but no doubt the stresses on everyone are getting at her too). Blistig is as he is, and Keneb is at a result at his wits' end. And of course there's Fiddler...who we know is tough enough to take whatever is coming at him, and even he is fraying at the edges. Especially when Hedge is around.

Of course if it comes down to "this character has a larger vocabulary than he should", that simply doesn't bother me regardless of whether it's "true" or not. I don't consider it true, since I think SE chooses the POVs wisely enough and lets the reader conclude on their own which of these characters are typical and which are exceptional (and therefore more likely to provide thoughtful POVs). But it doesn't bother me if he slips up from time to time.

Yeah I see your point. You have made it well actually. I agree you can't fill pages with *Frack frack frack frac meat frack frack water* And the hidden gems do seem to be in the discourse. I do want to be clear that I love this series. Once I got through GotM I was so hooked I couldn't stop. I'd finish a book in a weekend. I think the re-read is where I have to go from here before the final book. Any word on a proposed release on CG?

[blackzoid]

Some musings about DoD.

Likes of the book.
1: I liked the Snake, it was weird at first but it does give us background on where the Bonehunters are going next.
It was necessary for the next book. I reread their sections eagerly once I found out who was after them.

2: I liked the Barghast storyline. I was under the impression from the end of Reaper's Gale that these guys would meet up
with the Bonehuners and from one superarmy of good. It was much more interesting to see them self-destruct. I liked it.
And as mentioned earlier, if it wasn't for them we would have got no cool arrival of Draconus. I would have no problem reading more of the Barghast
storyline, if it still led up to that ending!

3: The huge setup that is occuring for the next book. Its going to be something huge! I can wait for it. Delayed gratification and all that.

A somewhat dislike of the book.
I do somewhat agree with the unnecessary keeping of secrets in this book. Sometimes it seems like the early seasons of Lost, where you end up shouting at the screen, wondering why the fuck don't these characters actually talk to each other and pool their knowledge. Its understandable in this case however, as power draws power in the Malazan world, and any mages who have lived this long understand that they have done so by keeping their heads down and not making a fuss.


An absolute hatred of the book.
Unfortunatedly, this book shares a major similarity with RG in one point. RG is by far my least favourite MbotF for a single reason:
Multiple POV of too many similar Marine Characters. Now, I know that SE shows multiple POV and I really dig that. But if many of those POV are marine POV characters who are in the same army, and they are all going through these poetic introspection periods, it gets pretty fricking boring! I don't mind if the Snake, the Shake, the Barghast, the Perish etc all have mopey periods. All of those characters are different from each other. But the Marine POV squads, after the 5th or 6th time it really pissed me off!

Once we get past Fiddler's Squad, Geslar's squad, Hellians Squad and Maybe Kindley's squad, does any one really care about the others? Messan Gillani's squad, Deadsmell and those damn annoying Dal Honese women. Every single pov has been a story on how they joined up, love the Malazan army cos they offered them something better in life, don't know what the Adjunct is up to etc etc. After a while, it just gets irritating and I will admit I did "gloss" over those parts. Especially those Dal Honese witchs. Now Deadsmell got interesting because of his connections to Hood, so I went back to his parts but the rest of them, in both this book and RG were fricking annoying. RG was ruined (in my opinion) because of their excess pov's and DOD came close.

Its funny cos I loved TtH which also had a lot of mopey characters and introspection, but at least many of TtH's characters did not seem like copies of each other in the way that RG/DoD's ones did.

But in the end, I gave DoD a pass because a lot of great things did happen in the book and you can feel that the book is setting up something big.
A huge conflict is about to happen with Elder gods, Regular Gods, Crippled God, FA, Silchas and the other Eleint guy, KCCM, Perish, BH, Jade Giants, Icarium, Tool and his T'lan Imass, Hood and his Jaghut, Shadowthrone and Cotillion. So it got a B- from me.

And because hopefully, the KCNR have succeeded in killing (and eating) most of those pointless 3rd rate marine characters. God, what I would have given to have had a KCNR drone hive-mind pov in the book instead of Sweatgrass or whatever she's called.

End Rant.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 01 March 2010 - 07:50 AM

[worry]

blackzoid, on 01 March 2010 - 07:38 AM, said:

Some musings about DoD.

Likes of the book.
1: I liked the Snake, it was weird at first but it does give us background on where the Bonehunters are going next.
It was necessary for the next book. I reread their sections eagerly once I found out who was after them.

2: I liked the Barghast storyline. I was under the impression from the end of Reaper's Gale that these guys would meet up
with the Bonehuners and from one superarmy of good. It was much more interesting to see them self-destruct. I liked it.
And as mentioned earlier, if it wasn't for them we would have got no cool arrival of Draconus. I would have no problem reading more of the Barghast
storyline, if it still led up to that ending!

3: The huge setup that is occuring for the next book. Its going to be something huge! I can wait for it. Delayed gratification and all that.

A somewhat dislike of the book.
I do somewhat agree with the unnecessary keeping of secrets in this book. Sometimes it seems like the early seasons of Lost, where you end up shouting at the screen, wondering why the fuck don't these characters actually talk to each other and pool their knowledge. Its understandable in this case however, as power draws power in the Malazan world, and any mages who have lived this long understand that they have done so by keeping their heads down and not making a fuss.


An absolute hatred of the book.
Unfortunatedly, this book shares a major similarity with RG in one point. RG is by far my least favourite MbotF for a single reason:
Multiple POV of too many similar Marine Characters. Now, I know that SE shows multiple POV and I really dig that. But if many of those POV are marine POV characters who are in the same army, and they are all going through these poetic introspection periods, it gets pretty fricking boring! I don't mind if the Snake, the Shake, the Barghast, the Perish etc all have mopey periods. All of those characters are different from each other. But the Marine POV squads, after the 5th or 6th time it really pissed me off!

Once we get past Fiddler's Squad, Geslar's squad, Hellians Squad and Maybe Kindley's squad, does any one really care about the others? Messan Gillani's squad, Deadsmell and those damn annoying Dal Honese women. Every single pov has been a story on how they joined up, love the Malazan army cos they offered them something better in life, don't know what the Adjunct is up to etc etc. After a while, it just gets irritating and I will admit I did "gloss" over those parts. Especially those Dal Honese witchs. Now Deadsmell got interesting because of his connections to Hood, so I went back to his parts but the rest of them, in both this book and RG were fricking annoying. RG was ruined (in my opinion) because of their excess pov's and DOD came close.

Its funny cos I loved TtH which also had a lot of mopey characters and introspection, but at least many of TtH's characters did not seem like copies of each other in the way that RG/DoD's ones did.

But in the end, I gave DoD a pass because a lot of great things did happen in the book and you can feel that the book is setting up something big.
A huge conflict is about to happen with Elder gods, Regular Gods, Crippled God, FA, Silchas and the other Eleint guy, KCCM, Perish, BH, Jade Giants, Icarium, Tool and his T'lan Imass, Hood and his Jaghut, Shadowthrone and Cotillion. So it got a B- from me.

And because hopefully, the KCNR have succeeded in killing (and eating) most of those pointless 3rd rate marine characters. God, what I would have given to have had a KCNR drone hive-mind pov in the book instead of Sweatgrass or whatever she's called.

End Rant.

Don't count out Ganoes, Mappo, Gruntle, and Heboric!!! I have a feeling (or just a hope) that ALL the gods of war are going to be involved.

[Eispeis]

cleantoe, on 28 February 2010 - 01:45 PM, said:

There are other parts of the series that also bother me, such as all the pages upon pages of sex. Yes, sex happens, and yes it happens frequently. But seriously, it gets to the point where half the series is about sex and it gets absurd rather quickly. The profanity doesn't bother me much--in fact, it's rather mild compared to what I would be saying in those circumstances, and I conjure mild as to what most normal people would say. I guess I am being kind of judgmental (lots of profanity is okay on the one hand, but lots of sex is not on the other).

Just a tiny nitpick/question. Is it really that much sex in the series? I was surprised when I read the above quote, because I really can't remember any "on-screen" sex-scenes at all. Sure several characters are getting busy, but there's no unnecessary "grabbed his throbbing member and gave it a jolly good yank"-scenes at all. (On that note, the greatest sex-scene ever depicted can be found in Guy Ritchie's movie RocknRolla.) To use WOT as an example as you yourself do, the Rand vs Elayne/Aviendah/Min and other masturbatory aide scenes Jordan wrote are way more explicit.

I have noticed an increase of the word PROFANITY WARNING HIDE YOUR CHILDREN!

Spoiler

fuck

from RG and onwards, which surprised me, but I'm not bothered by it.

I agree with you that some places the series can be long-winded, and I tend to zone in and out of certain paragraphs, but I trust in SE and believe that it'll all be spectacularific come tCG.


OFF TOPIC (sorry)
Just my two cents about WoT as well. 1-6 are great (the final scene at Dumais' Wells in LoC is glorious). 7-8 were meh. 9 (excepting the last paragraphs "It's clean") and 10 were torturous. 11 was decent again. Don't think I'll pick up 12-14 until they're finished and in paperback. Then do a complete re-read of the entire series.

Will start re-reading MBotF in a couple of months after getting through some other books I've had waiting for quite some time.

Also, talking about bad fantasy: David Eddings' The Elenium. F**k me!

This post has been edited by Eispeis: 01 March 2010 - 10:16 AM

[cleantoe]

Eispeis, on 01 March 2010 - 10:12 AM, said:

cleantoe, on 28 February 2010 - 01:45 PM, said:

There are other parts of the series that also bother me, such as all the pages upon pages of sex. Yes, sex happens, and yes it happens frequently. But seriously, it gets to the point where half the series is about sex and it gets absurd rather quickly. The profanity doesn't bother me much--in fact, it's rather mild compared to what I would be saying in those circumstances, and I conjure mild as to what most normal people would say. I guess I am being kind of judgmental (lots of profanity is okay on the one hand, but lots of sex is not on the other).

Just a tiny nitpick/question. Is it really that much sex in the series? I was surprised when I read the above quote, because I really can't remember any "on-screen" sex-scenes at all. Sure several characters are getting busy, but there's no unnecessary "grabbed his throbbing member and gave it a jolly good yank"-scenes at all. (On that note, the greatest sex-scene ever depicted can be found in Guy Ritchie's movie RocknRolla.) To use WOT as an example as you yourself do, the Rand vs Elayne/Aviendah/Min and other masturbatory aide scenes Jordan wrote are way more explicit.

You haven't noticed all the sex? Really? Hmm...

Well, there are two PoVs that ALWAYS talk about sex--Shurq and Ublala. Then half the marine story arcs are about sex here and there. Even Lostara Yil's last scene basically had to do with sex (she doesn't just "dance" for anyone--she enjoyed that Bluerose guy checking her out and wanted to hook up with him).

Maybe you just aren't noticing the parts with all the sex. He doesn't have to make it explicit--indeed, most of the time it's just passing references to sex. And it's literally everywhere in the books, in every single chapter. On your re-read, pay attention and you'll definitely notice all the talk of sex.

Regarding WoT, it's not even a comparison. There are very few sex scenes that are directly indicated, and most of the other infrequent sex scenes are just casually mentioned and never really again talked about, like the "pillowfriends" in the White Tower. They will say "oh yeah when we were novices we were pillowfriends" and that's as far as it goes, most of the time.

Anyways, you might want to go pick up book 12. Even though it's 1/3rd of the last book, it stands well on its own and is probably one of the better books in the series. I'd say the second best book, in fact.

[Eispeis]

cleantoe, on 01 March 2010 - 11:15 AM, said:

Well, there are two PoVs that ALWAYS talk about sex--Shurq and Ublala. Then half the marine story arcs are about sex here and there. Even Lostara Yil's last scene basically had to do with sex (she doesn't just "dance" for anyone--she enjoyed that Bluerose guy checking her out and wanted to hook up with him).

Fair enough. I thought you were talking about more direct stuff and thought I missed out

But seriously, I'm not bothered by it, and it paints a fairly realistic picture of what people are talking/obsessing about in real life as well. It's not surprising at all when it comes to an army who's been on the march for years as sex would be a pretty decent escape from it all. I agree that the Shurq and Ublala storylines centre a lot around sex, but I just go with it.

I will read The Gathering Storm eventually, but I would need to read at least Knife of Dreams again to understand anything at all now, and I think I'll just do a complete 14 book extravaganza when they're all out as I don't want to keep re-reading books again and again. I've already read the series twice, and I'm not interested in relearning everything just to end up with another 2 year wait for 13 and 14.

This post has been edited by Eispeis: 01 March 2010 - 12:12 PM

[worry]

I kinda love the sex talk. Shurq and Ublala can be hilarious, and some of the very best laugh out loud moments in the series come from Karsa flirting (in his way) with Samar Dev.

[Gothos]

As for sex... Half of life is about sex. Hell, who am I kidding, 75% upwards. I don't see how books inherently should be any different.

As for WoT, if the three books I read are supposed to be the "awesome" part... I really would only consider reading the rest if someone paid me for the waste of my worthless lifespan.

[cleantoe]

On another note, does anyone know what really happened to Redmask? It seems that the K'Chain Chemalle think he was killed by them, but then someone examines the corpse and says that it can't be Redmask because that body is Letherii.

[Gothos]

Also, to adress some of the other issues:

Quote

Finally, here is what frustrates me most about this book, and indeed the entire series. Why is everyone always keeping secrets from one another??? They do it book after book after book. The all hide their stupid little secrets. Why don't Bottle and Quick Ben talk more? Why does Fiddler keep his knowledge so secret when if everyone got together and spilled their guts about everything they knew, the whole damn series would have been finished already?

Do you always tell people everything? You never keep a "shaved knuckle in your sleeve"? Some of these guys sruvived this long only because they avoid attention. Wu is filled to brim with convergence, power draws power every time, and keeping a low profile is really, really healthy. Personally I don't like Quick keeping so much secret, but I also understand why he does it. It makes perfect sense.

Quote

Why did Fiddler have no problem playing his Deck of Dragons game before and now hates doing it, even before the super-reading?

It has everything to do with the Holds on Letheras, and the presence of a rival to the master of the Deck. The Master of the Holds understandably sees the Deck of Dragons as a threat to his power, and also understandably it's readings and readers, as channels of the Deck's power, pose a threat to him as well.
Not to mention that the growing convergence makes readings more dangerous, as depicted by cards slamming into people instead of just flipping on the table. More power in the reading = more attention = more chances for a dead Fiddler. I'd want to hide too.

Quote

And why has Fiddler turned into such a bitter annoying bastard? I don't even like reading his parts anymore.

Why would he be a cheerful, flamboyant clown? His world is passing on, and he's tired of staying behind. He's lost all his friends, and now he's losing his "children" - they young soldiers of the Bonehunters. He's marching in some continent halfway across the world against Hood knows what kind of threat, to do Hood knows what, maybe not even make a difference, and all for very vague reasons. Everyone in that army has been on edge, and Fiddler too, because there's only this much a man can take.

[amphibian]

cleantoe, on 01 March 2010 - 04:07 PM, said:

On another note, does anyone know what really happened to Redmask? It seems that the K'Chain Chemalle think he was killed by them, but then someone examines the corpse and says that it can't be Redmask because that body is Letherii.

This is a case where a re-read of that passage would have cleared things up. Redmask was Letherii and he was killed by the K'Chain. There's a little more in the way of illumination of those facts there if you care to find the relevant threads in the RG forum (of which there are quite a few) or go back to the books.

Quote

If you and H.D. are indicative of the type of community these books generate, I'll just stop posting here. I've never seen such hostility and cavalier disregard as I've seen here.

Both posters you mention have and will continue to be passionate readers and posters here. I don't think they're being particularly unwelcoming, as there was a strong dismissive tone and general attitude of "I'm not going to do that much work" in your OP - at least to me. We can all simmer down though and get back to the books. This place has been consciously prodded to be more welcoming to new people and in the past, you might have gotten a much ruder reception. It's working, as Gothos noticed.

Gothos, on 01 March 2010 - 04:08 PM, said:

This seems to me like an absolute affront to reading as an activity in general. I'd say that the fact that most posters here didn't eat you alive for this... sentence... is a quality mark for this forum's civility and calm.

Because I've been here a while, I know you're being fairly even-handed and even answered a few of his questions with info that I and others didn't put down, but simmer down, buddy.

[cleantoe]

nm, found the forum with redmask in it--thanks.

This post has been edited by cleantoe: 01 March 2010 - 05:29 PM

[Abyss]

ModGod Notice of Thread Surveillance: Bubba said it. Amphi re-stated it nicely. I'll say it again: everyone be nice.
Argue about the books all anyone wants. Argue about your respective opinions of the books all anyone cares to.
If the thread devolves into arguing about who said what how and to whom, it will be eradicated deleted nuked excised wiped eaten killed and then made sex with closed.




- Abyss, is watching you masterbate post.

[Lister of Smeg]

OP, I share your concerns regarding the Barghast. On my sole reread so far, I skipped swathes of their passages, knowing as I did that 95% of the characters were completely irrelevant. There are some important consequences of what they do (Tool, his kids, Torrent, etc) but overall I could have done with far fewer pages dedicated to Bakal and Strahl, for example. I am glad they are all dead now, so hopefully SE will give more screentime to the characters that actually matter.

Overall though, I loved DoD. The Snake was fascinating, the Shake have grown on my after my reread and I love all the different characters in the BH army. I can't wait to see how Erikson manages to tie everything together in the final book.

[HoosierDaddy]

Well, I can be an ass, I'll admit that. And, criticism with something you haven't read doesn't naturally sit well with me, but then again, I'd be a hypocrite to say I've never done it before. Thus: I already admitted to my knee-jerk being an overreaction.

However, I stand by my opinion that DoD was outstanding. Cleantoe adequately pointed out that the Barghast story-line really didn't need to be included. Well, strictly speaking they didn't accomplish much in this book other than eradicating themselves after having been introduced six books prior and having two scenes in Reaper's Gale. After watching what happened to Hetan and Tool, was that eradication just a wee bit fantastic? I thought so.

D'rek, however, I think nailed the major reason why they need to be included. Because they were included in the first place and are just sitting around for 6 books, the story-line had to go. Cleantoe wouldn't know unless he's lurked for a while that a major beef with Erikson is the amount of open plot-threads that we can only assume aren't going to be finished in the 10-Arc main series, and are therefore going to be left to additional books afterwards. To the defender in this case, Erikson is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't finish the story-arc within the main sequence.

We could quibble about Barghast's importance other than that, about say how they effectively ended any advance by the Letherii to the east, the foundation of the alliance against the Letherii (Bolkando Alliance) that is built in RG.

Finally, the introduction of Setoc, whom I assume will play a big role in TCG. The conversion of Tool into an enemy of humanity, and his subsequent helping hands who were resurrected by Olar Ethil to help do whatever it is she plans on doing. The alliance between The Bonehunters (or at least Tavore) and the Seven Broken T'lan of Karsa's tribe. Well, if these receive attention and are ended well in TCG then I think there needs be no argument on why they were included, such as should take place now about Redmask and that seemingly useless bit of Reaper's Gale that was the entire set up for most of the events in DoD.

This post has been edited by H.D.: 01 March 2010 - 07:16 PM

[cleantoe]

Good post, H.D.

Perhaps my memory is already getting fuzzy, but the Senan were the last surviving tribe of the White Face Barghast, yes? And towards the end of DoD, didn't Tool and his company of T'lan Imass wipe out that entire tribe? I don't see how they would have any impact in tCG...you know...cause presumably they're all dead.

[HoosierDaddy]

cleantoe, on 01 March 2010 - 07:12 PM, said:

Good post, H.D.

Perhaps my memory is already getting fuzzy, but the Senan were the last surviving tribe of the White Face Barghast, yes? And towards the end of DoD, didn't Tool and his company of T'lan Imass wipe out that entire tribe? I don't see how they would have any impact in tCG...you know...cause presumably they're all dead.

No, you're right. I was thinking of Setoc, who seems to be the Destriant of Togg and Fanderay. I'll edit that in.

This post has been edited by H.D.: 01 March 2010 - 07:21 PM

[Sinisdar Toste]

well that bit ends with the slaughter still in progress, but yeah, one assumes that the t'lan imass wouldn't stop for a breather or anything

[Illuyankas]

Currently the Gilk are the last White Face Barghast. And probably the reason we'll see Tool and his Imass encounter the allies in TCG.

[D'rek]

Lister of Smeg, on 01 March 2010 - 06:27 PM, said:

OP, I share your concerns regarding the Barghast. On my sole reread so far, I skipped swathes of their passages, knowing as I did that 95% of the characters were completely irrelevant. There are some important consequences of what they do (Tool, his kids, Torrent, etc) but overall I could have done with far fewer pages dedicated to Bakal and Strahl, for example. I am glad they are all dead now, so hopefully SE will give more screentime to the characters that actually matter.

Overall though, I loved DoD. The Snake was fascinating, the Shake have grown on my after my reread and I love all the different characters in the BH army. I can't wait to see how Erikson manages to tie everything together in the final book.

That's how I felt about all the BBs and the BHs, who just seem to march constantly and fight he occasional battle. When I re-read now I skip swathes of their passages, knowing as I do that 95% of the characters are completely irrelevant. There are some important consequences of what they do (deck readings, leading armies, etc) but overall I could have done with far fewer pages dedicated to Fiddler, Whiskeyjack, Dujek, Bottle, for example. I am glad they are all dead now, so hopefully SE will give more screentime to the characters that actually matter.