[Hetan]

The Seguleh 46th, on 10 April 2010 - 05:53 AM, said:

Sinisdar Toste, on 09 April 2010 - 05:00 AM, said:

The Seguleh 46th, on 08 April 2010 - 10:55 PM, said:

Yeah, i got the impression too that Rake did it for the Draconus banging MD thing, but there is obviously (well, at least probably anyhow) more of a reason then that, but does seem as likely a reason at this point as any. Telorast and Curdle being twin dragons working together outside of the Eleint norm of betrayal was pretty cool, but i still don't get the "they are one now as a Soletaken Tiste Andii thing". Maybe i am waaay off base there, i don't know.....still a very kickass backstory on them two!

its more like they have to inhabit bodies around them because if they take their true forms they find themselves chained in the shadow realm all over again. its not that they're soletaken, they just have to possess bodies other than their real ones if they want to stay mobile

I understand that, but i was under the impression that they were BOTH inhabiting one body, and that was either OF a Soletaken Andii, or they created the Andii into a Soletaken via possession. Don't understand how two can become one, but it's cool anyways! Like i said, i may be way off here, so just wondering if someone to help me out. Maybe there's a thread somewhere on this subject (?), as i would hate to interrupt this entertaining debate of DOD!

They were inhabiting the body of a Tiste Andii woman which had been brought to them by Dessimbelackis, but I couldn't find a reference to her having been soletaken.
Their true form is Eleint. Two souls in one body - not sure how that's so much of stretch if one accepts that right from book 1 you have a guy with twelve souls inside him.

edit to add - and we know that Telorast and Curdle lie when it suits them

[The Seguleh 46th]

Hetan, on 13 April 2010 - 07:35 AM, said:

The Seguleh 46th, on 10 April 2010 - 05:53 AM, said:

Sinisdar Toste, on 09 April 2010 - 05:00 AM, said:

The Seguleh 46th, on 08 April 2010 - 10:55 PM, said:

Yeah, i got the impression too that Rake did it for the Draconus banging MD thing, but there is obviously (well, at least probably anyhow) more of a reason then that, but does seem as likely a reason at this point as any. Telorast and Curdle being twin dragons working together outside of the Eleint norm of betrayal was pretty cool, but i still don't get the "they are one now as a Soletaken Tiste Andii thing". Maybe i am waaay off base there, i don't know.....still a very kickass backstory on them two!

its more like they have to inhabit bodies around them because if they take their true forms they find themselves chained in the shadow realm all over again. its not that they're soletaken, they just have to possess bodies other than their real ones if they want to stay mobile

I understand that, but i was under the impression that they were BOTH inhabiting one body, and that was either OF a Soletaken Andii, or they created the Andii into a Soletaken via possession. Don't understand how two can become one, but it's cool anyways! Like i said, i may be way off here, so just wondering if someone to help me out. Maybe there's a thread somewhere on this subject (?), as i would hate to interrupt this entertaining debate of DOD!

They were inhabiting the body of a Tiste Andii woman which had been brought to them by Dessimbelackis, but I couldn't find a reference to her having been soletaken.
Their true form is Eleint. Two souls in one body - not sure how that's so much of stretch if one accepts that right from book 1 you have a guy with twelve souls inside him.

edit to add - and we know that Telorast and Curdle lie when it suits them

Good point. I thought about the QB angle of 12, but as far as we know, none of his sould were Eleint either! Figured it worked different for dragons. I don't really care anyways, just was curious. And you could very well be right, they do lie so very much, so it could all be bullshit. Love it!

[Iccarium]

I agree with the OP that the Barghast plot line took WAY too long to resolve. It get really boring and in the end was a waste of time for me. The snake was also not very good for me but at least it occupied less time to get through.

[Ceda Cicero]

Onearms"s Host, on 28 February 2010 - 06:33 PM, said:

As for the Barghast storyline that many seem to dislike, what did you expect? Did you expect that SE would just not write about them anymore? That after the events of the early novels (coming together with the BB's), and after the whole clan just picked up and sailed across the ocean to the Letherii continent, after the pages that were written about all the empty boats on the Letherii coastline and their total and complete dissappearance into that continent, did people really think that we would never hear about them again?

I thought I'd pop in just for half a second to say that I don't quite buy this line of thinking - that the Barghast story had to be told in DoD because SE "would just not write about them anymore." I think that there are QUITE a few storylines that would seem to be of more immediate importance that, if we're operating on the "Well, I have to resolve this arc SOMEtime" principle should take precedence. Paran? Silverfox? Felisin Younger and her fledgling cult?

This takes us, I know, into the realm of what will be resolved, what will be unresolved, and what will be left for ICE, but I just want to make the point that you can't really argue for the presence of a storyline on this basis.

[lobo]

cleantoe, on 28 February 2010 - 01:45 PM, said:

Thanks to everyone for their input.

That clears up a lot for me. To be honest, I don't think I'll do a re-read of the series. There's too many books. Is it laziness? Yes it is, so I will have to live with the uncertainty and not truly knowing everything it seems everyone else knows.

Some of the other criticisms laid out for the book I also agree with, as I forgot about them, such as all the pages of people seeing their lives literally flash before their eyes--especially characters that I don't care about.

I understand the philosophical stuff that Erikson is trying to get across, and that's fine--I read almost everything, and some parts I just gloss over. Some parts, like the Snake, I just skim through or completely skip. He's just trying too hard with the philosophy in those parts.

There are other parts of the series that also bother me, such as all the pages upon pages of sex. Yes, sex happens, and yes it happens frequently. But seriously, it gets to the point where half the series is about sex and it gets absurd rather quickly. The profanity doesn't bother me much--in fact, it's rather mild compared to what I would be saying in those circumstances, and I conjure mild as to what most normal people would say. I guess I am being kind of judgmental (lots of profanity is okay on the one hand, but lots of sex is not on the other).

Despite me not liking this book very much, I must say I've enjoyed the series a lot. It's like the bastard child of A Song of Ice and Fire and the Wheel of Time. The only disheartening thing I've seen thus far is the theories regarding the content of the next book, and how much of the plotlines won't be closed in the final book so that ICE and SE can keep writing spinoff books.

I haven't read the novellas although I should. But it seems very irritating to me that I will not be getting the full experience of the series without reading more books and without reading subsequent series that will tie up plotlines (for instance, there is no way in hell Karsa's story will be finished in the next book, and he's one of the best characters in my opinion).

Now, to H.D. :

Quote

Why are the Barghast NOT a waste of space and why DO they matter?

Nothing you said makes their plotline matter. Their plotline, in fact, is meaningless. There are two things that matter: 1) Tool, and 2) Tool's children.

Both Tool's effective reincarnation and descent into what I would think is madness from grief could have been handled without all the Barghast buildup. It took too long to happen, and considering this is the book before the finale, it took up valuable space that could have been used to further other plotlines (such as furthering the Tool or his children's plotlines). And was the hobbling scene necessary? In my opinion, no. In your opinion, yes. That's fine. But look what came of it: She was hobbled, then escaped, and then was instantly killed along with her brother. Did we need all that just to kill those characters off in a few lines? I understand the need to show the horror and the ultimately futile flip-flop of their society and culture, but aside from showing the "horror" of what they did before, their entire presence was, in effect, worthless vis-a-vis furthering the plot of the entire book.

Quote

You skip over parts and yet still judge them? ...The Snake is comparable to the Chain of Dogs, which has to be one of the greatest entries in Malaz history.

I beg to differ, kind sir. I see your point, though. Both were survivors treking a long distance, slowly getting picked off by the enemy. That's where the similarities stop. The Chain of Dogs was awesome to read. The Snake was not, although I've been repeatedly told that on a re-read it is. But guess what? I didn't have to re-read the Chain of Dogs. It was uber-awesome/tragic without a re-read. And I did start out reading about the Snake, and I started skimming/skipping when I felt that I couldn't force myself to read it due to boredom. You think I just randomly judged it out of the blue? No, I started reading at first, was disgusted by its mediocre pace and seeming non-relevance to the rest of the book...and, most importantly, I got sick of reading about three marches in the same book. Perhaps I was too eager to skim the chapters, and in retrospect, I should have read them, but that doesn't mean anything. To me, they were boring to read and I did not enjoy reading those parts. So I skipped them. If you beg to differ, then that is your right and your opinion.

Quote

Why do they do what they do? They SURVIVE because they do what they do. Especially the earliest BB's you talk about like, Quick Ben. Every mage you've met in this series, other than Beak, keeps his secrets, and that's because without secrets what is the point of being a knowledgeable mage?

There are some secrets that need to be kept. Quick Ben and his 12 souls are one thing that he should never tell anyone. Telling Tavore that she killed her own sister is another, although I hate her character so much I hope she gets told anyways.


Things that don't need to be kept secret are stuff such as what Fiddler's last reading of the Deck meant. Why was he hiding what it meant? Why did it spell certain doom even though no one could have foreseen encountering the Short Tails? Why did this affect Tavore's decision? It's stupid secrets like this that SE intentionally makes cliffhangers to keep our interest. The series is damn good and I'm glad I read it, but for crying out loud, not every secret needs to be a secret!


Which reminds me. Someone mentioned in response to me that Fiddler avoids Deck readings because it attracts power, something he wants to avoid. That's understandable, but why did he slowly stop doing the deck readings altogether when he used to do them damn near every night when he was in the Bridgeburners? Not wanting to do one with 13 is understandable, I'd run too. But what about the smaller readings he was asked to do and he would always whine about it and stuff? Before he was eager, and now he just whines.

Err...rant v2.0 is now over.

It is quite rare for me to use this forum, to my continued misunderstanding of much of the series. Using this forum is similar to the person who mentioned that SE has many a meaning behind everything,impelling or compelling the reader to challenge himself for the symbolism, what is between the lines, as well as the alternate motivations of characters &Co. Not to mention the myriad of flow-chart arrows between gods and characters, individual characters to the whole. Now I'm not making sense to myself.

I think that was a good point about the challenge to the reader, since I have yet to see someone take the entire whole and write a compendium of sort, the encyclopedia is still, for me, in it's infancy. I'm sure some people have everything in order and comprehension of all!

Why are some posts edited? Is it a spoiler? If it is I want to get that spoiler, since it lends to understanding.

I have made the effort since I have reread most or the books twice, the first five about four times. That still leaves me lost, however I did not try to sit down and study each book, as if my life depended on it. That is the key, maybe, to bust your ass for true enlightenment?

This is the only book Erikson has penned that I do not like, adding the snake, the shake, the barghast, characters out of character. I am rereading it at the moment and thought I would come here for some tips. Many very good points stated for the why of the things I did not like.

On another thread here, Abyss(I think thats what he goes by?) was so enthused by this book, he motivated me to try to get that! Not sure if it will work, however I will try.

It was mentioned that this is the prequel for the sequel, I don't think that is an excuse for a bad book. No, it's not a bad book...for me it is. My opinion is not relevant, since I do not use the forum, study it, or aforementioned college try to go through each book with a fine toothed comb.

I do a lot of reading so it's quite easy to forget, what went on in that or this volume. This forum is a great tool if you use it!

Did Steven Erikson want a series that is not for dissemination to the general public? Fantasy is not, at least some may be? All I read is sci-fie and fantasy. I am sure he has made some money, and the series popularity is low in the U.S. only, I venture?

I try to turn people on to this series. They take a look at the Dramatis Personae and index, or soon to give me back GOTM, mentioning that they do not want to work that hard, just to read a book. I do not find it difficult at all, fun is what I have reading this series.

A bit off topic here, just to mention that I agreed with the person who started this thread. I will continue my re-read to change my opinion.

[L'oric]

The OP had some valid points about some parts of the series being mostly annoying, but I do not think most of those parts were in this book.

Barghast. WoW. No one likes the tragic nature of humanity? Too much ugliness for one book maybe? Overdosed?

Sex. This isnt porn but...sex does happen. Years have passed in the lives of these characters....let them get lucky and dont begrudge them. I am tired of being PC'd in fantasy/science fiction and in fiction in general.

Snake. More tragedy. Atrocious aweful ugly life in our faces and unrelenting at times. The malazan book of the fallen is well and aptlt named as has been said over and over, and though many characters seem to not want to die, many more are definately fallen. The triumphs of those who survive will be that much sweeter I think.

This is all opinion after all. I think the original poster is doing himself a disservice in not rereading these books. They are much better than 99 percent on the fantasy out there. Why read....the latest star wars book instead of DoD? I would rather reread DoD.

To each their own.
Sincerely
L'oric

[Hetan]

I'm a bit bemused by the pages upon pages of sex comment to be honest. I must have read a different series altogether!
Has there been alterations made to the manuscripts when they are published in different countries?
I recall instances when some characters have obviously just had sex, then there's Karsa's journey, mentions of rape of Stonny and Seren etc, Hetan's hobbling, etc etc but I don't remember them being described in detail and neither would I call it anything remotely like pages upon pages or even half the series? Seriously?

[worry]

Sex is dirty and shameful while violence is exciting and heroic, even in small, off-screen doses.

[Garak]

There were pages upon pages of sex in this series? Either I'm reading a different series, I got missing pages that I haven't noticed or you somehow bought the porn version of the series. Seriously now. The sex happens only now and then, doesn't get overly graphic and let's face it, some of these characters deserve to blow some steam once in a while.

In most stories sex is barely mentioned and even then you have to look really hard to notice it - like it's taboo or something. Showing violence off the scale is just fine but sex is horrible and we must hide it? It's like on TV when they cover up the boobs when showing some model on the news and yet they show the most violent and disturbing stuff at five o'clock in the afternoon when most kids are home and are going to able to see that stuff - sure, they blur the blood and stuff but the descriptions they give leaves little to the imagination about the state of the corpse/rape victim/etc. It's retarded and I never got that. Violence is good and sex/partial nudity is bad - and I'm talking normal sex not every perversion you can think of or find on the internet. Why? It doesn't make a lick of sense.

This post has been edited by Garak: 22 May 2010 - 08:20 PM

[Testi]

Hi there, new here also and while there were a couple of things that were not my favorite (the snake), I loved this book.

• I am a huge fan of the style/banter that SE writes, especially since that is supported by his creation of some of the best characters I have read in any fictional piece.
• The Throne room scenes with Tehol et all.
• The Discussions between QB and Tavore's council, this scene to me while brief hints at such deep/final hints as to the end of the whole series, it gave me a chill (Kallors Warren)
• Errants folly, (his gatherings/summons) the discussions , Maels concise breakdown of the Malazan entwinement throughout, even though he is obviously doing so to prod a reaction not really divulge information.

I was and I am still not a fan of the Snake, no matter how many times I go back and re-read the sections even with the understanding of their importance to everything in Kolanse that is yet to come.

The Bargasht had a lot of roles as many have outlined before me, most importantly. They impacted Tool in such a way to force him to lead the Imass to a new "destiny", also this led them to not go to the aid of the Bonehunters, for good or bad.

They also provided some good scenery/setting for Draconu's epic entry.

Testi

This post has been edited by Testi: 26 May 2010 - 02:09 PM

[Newbee]

Found the book disappointing. All the other books could stand alone on the strength of their respective stories. This book was like a stopgap for the final book it felt like it had no identity.

[worry]

It's the first half of the final book. Literally. That's it.

[Puck]

Yeah, it's clearly stated in the author's note at the beginning of DoD that it's only half a book and doesn't follow the traditional arc of a novel. Sometimes, it helps reading an author's note. Really.