[Darkwatch]

Atheism isn't a religion, it's an ideology, and thus religion's brother, not it's twin.

[EsotericForest]

Well guys, like I said before...I was just making an amusing observation. Sorry if I got some of you riled up...I really only made the comment to lighten the mood, and instead got the opposite reaction.

[Darkwatch]

Meh, the DB is SERIOUS BUSINESS!

Besides I'm just trying to re-iterate a point I've been making for years that no one ever listens to.

Fanaticism always needs a cause, and any ideology will do, religious or otherwise.
Thus on that point atheism and religion are very nearly on the same footing, just give it a few more years and a few more Dawkins.

[Epiph]

Darkwatch, on 11 January 2010 - 04:44 AM, said:

Fanaticism always needs a cause, and any ideology will do, religious or otherwise.
Thus on that point atheism and religion are very nearly on the same footing, just give it a few more years and a few more Dawkins.

I always yell at the TV about this. Whenever a prominent atheist/nonreligious person goes off on all the harm that has been perpetrated in that name of various religions, I start yelling at the TV, literally or metaphorically, about how it's not religious belief so much as tribal mindsets. Humans would fight about something else if it weren't about which god they worship.

I heartily disagree about atheism and religion being on the same footing, as systems of belief. True, a lot of atheists have adopted humanism and rationality as a cause, but it's certainly not bred into the system in the way it is in, say, evangelical Christianity, since there is no system for atheists.

And I think Dawkins has an unearned reputation. Whenever I see him interviewed or presenting or read anything he writes, he is so charming, self effacing, generally wonderful and not at all the polarizing person he is made out to be. PZ Myers, on the other hand...I love 'im, but sometimes I think he succumbs to some of the logical fallacies he holds so in abhorrence.

[EsotericForest]

I was put off by Dawkins when he said you basically had to be an idiot to not believe in evolution. People are entitled to their own beliefs, but don't make personal attacks on people who don't believe the exact same thing you do.

[Epiph]

I really want to respond to that, but I'm not going to because that is evolution thread territory. Oh, self-restraint, you've come back from your holiday vacation!

[EsotericForest]

Well I was talking about Dawkins because everybody else was already, so I was just putting in my two cents on him personally. I wasn't trying to drag evolution into the conversation.

[Adjutant Stormy~]

Epiph, on 11 January 2010 - 06:27 AM, said:

Darkwatch, on 11 January 2010 - 04:44 AM, said:

Fanaticism always needs a cause, and any ideology will do, religious or otherwise.
Thus on that point atheism and religion are very nearly on the same footing, just give it a few more years and a few more Dawkins.

I always yell at the TV about this. Whenever a prominent atheist/nonreligious person goes off on all the harm that has been perpetrated in that name of various religions, I start yelling at the TV, literally or metaphorically, about how it's not religious belief so much as tribal mindsets. Humans would fight about something else if it weren't about which god they worship.

I heartily disagree about atheism and religion being on the same footing, as systems of belief. True, a lot of atheists have adopted humanism and rationality as a cause, but it's certainly not bred into the system in the way it is in, say, evangelical Christianity, since there is no system for atheists.

And I think Dawkins has an unearned reputation. Whenever I see him interviewed or presenting or read anything he writes, he is so charming, self effacing, generally wonderful and not at all the polarizing person he is made out to be. PZ Myers, on the other hand...I love 'im, but sometimes I think he succumbs to some of the logical fallacies he holds so in abhorrence.

Yelling at the TV is truly effective. As to tribal mindsets- I agree people will fight, but what you're fighting over determines how you fight. Arguments over absolutes lead to brutal conflict.

[Epiph]

I agree, but the idea that so many prominent atheists trot about, re: the harm Christianity has caused, seem to conveniently forget that, for instance, Stalin and Pol Pot did equally atrocious things in the name of a secular form of government. But you're right, the problem is absolutes and ideologies.

[HoosierDaddy]

There weren't ideologies behind Stalin or Pol Pot. They were dictators who used the power provided them to commit gross and heinous acts of murder. This is not a valid comparison.

[Sinisdar Toste]

they used ideologies to justify their actions

[Epiph]

H.D., on 12 January 2010 - 04:10 AM, said:

There weren't ideologies behind Stalin or Pol Pot. They were dictators who used the power provided them to commit gross and heinous acts of murder. This is not a valid comparison.

The same could be said of a lot of religious wars.

[EsotericForest]

Almost every evil dictator has hidden behind some kind of religion...at least long enough to rise to enough power that they then can carry out their real plan. Not to get...religious on you all here, but I will anyway. What better tool for Satan to utalize than having somebody who he controls, utalize religion, which in the end would just turn more people off from religion in general. Because then everybody thinks "Oh what a horrible person, and he said he was Christian! All Christians must be bad!". It plays right into his hands.

[Dolorous Menhir]

EsotericForest, on 13 January 2010 - 05:57 PM, said:

Almost every evil dictator has hidden behind some kind of religion...at least long enough to rise to enough power that they then can carry out their real plan. Not to get...religious on you all here, but I will anyway. What better tool for Satan to utalize than having somebody who he controls, utalize religion, which in the end would just turn more people off from religion in general. Because then everybody thinks "Oh what a horrible person, and he said he was Christian! All Christians must be bad!". It plays right into his hands.

So is the person he controls aware of this? Have they been possessed? Do they still have free will or are their choices and actions dictated by Satan?

[Adjutant Stormy~]

1) Utilize.
2) I like to think that people aren't that stupid. I feel like most people can spot lip-service when they see (or hear) it.

[Cougar]

Unwritten rule of the Internet #1: under no circumstances correct other people's grammar or spelling, not only will it bite you in the arse in the future, it also makes you seem petty and as if you are trying to undermine thier arguments by humiliating them.

Unless it is so severe you can not understand the content there is really no need for this it will only antagonise other members especially in such a potentially inflamatory discussion.

[Juvenis]

H.D., on 12 January 2010 - 04:10 AM, said:

There weren't ideologies behind Stalin or Pol Pot. They were dictators who used the power provided them to commit gross and heinous acts of murder. This is not a valid comparison.

They (and most other dictators) used ideologies to obtain that power in the first place. It wasn't ever simply given (that I know of). Then with the power, they were able to commit many atrocities, and justify them with their ideologies. My point is, I think it is a valid comparison. If it weren't for say, Stalin's communism, he would never have been able to starve thousands of peasants.

This post has been edited by Juvenis: 15 January 2010 - 05:55 PM

[Adjutant Stormy~]

Sorry, my grammar Nazism sprang up out of nowhere.

The thing that makes dictators powerful is power, and that is the means to their ends. But religion or ideology or cheese-sandwiches can stand in a justification. It seems to be a bit of a moot point to me.

[Gem Windcaster]

Adjutant Stormy, on 03 January 2010 - 09:04 AM, said:

Dear Powder,

You are far, far too well read. It is a shame that there aren't more of you.

Powder, on 21 December 2009 - 11:30 PM, said:

There is a systemic problem throughout mainstream Christianity--'The Bible says it. I believe it. That settles it.' This mentality is both harmful to the faith and to non believers. The fact of the matter is unless one is a contemporary of the writers of scripture, reading it in their language you probably cannot say the above statement. Is there are 'right' capitol T truth interpretation of scripture that solves everything.... No. There are interpretations that are more true, or better, but one cannot claim to have the exhaustive truth of the scriptures distilled into little catch phrases. I think it is very helpful to take a piece of Cougars post above, that all truths one gleans from the Bible must be held like so much water in the hands. It must be grasped lightly and deftly lest the truth run between your fingers (I had to have read that somewhere).

EXACTLY I spent a week trying to get Gem on board with this in the Evolution thread. It is good to see the scholarly approach alive and well.

(my bold) I don't think you were trying to convince me what you think you were trying to convince me. Either that, or I completely misread you. Either way I didn't notice. Now this may very well seem like total ad hoc, but you have seriously misunderstood me AS - in fact I've been trying to explain a similar way of thinking as powder expresses in the quoted post, in the very thread you're talking about.

Secondly, would you please refrain from mentioning me in a thread that I have (pretty clearly I think) stated I won't post in any further - excepting this one time - since I can't defend myself. I hope you can accommodate my request.

Gem out.

[Powder]

Hello again all. Time has passed and things have cooled off significantly in this thread and in my head. I wish to reopen the discussion, yet I am hesitant. Sadly I will be unable to leave my heart out of anything that I write herein. I do my best not to patronize individuals/groups, yet I am very passionate about these ideas and that will invariably come out. So for those of you who have been actively posting with me, do you wish a continuance of this thread or is it a dead horse I should stop beating? Frankly with out your express desire for a continuance on my part I will be ceasing and desisting from this thread.

-Powder