[ISTN4249]

(move thread if necessary)

I've been skimming through the books again getting ready for DoD and I was kind of wondering if maybe we already knew the Tyrant (the big daddy) in some capacity. We've met Raest already who more or less appears to be a mean ol Jaghut, a tyrant, but not THE tyrant. Just one of the ruling line.

Could Hood be the Tyrant that is making everyone piss their pants? I mean, all the Jaghuts are pretty badass. Some were more badass than others. One was so cold/ruthless/intelligent/badass/whatever that after the Jaghut supposedly won, he was chosen as Lord of the Dead. Who's to say Hood ain't the original grand daddy tyrant?

Here's my reasoning:

1) Hood is a huge asshole and pretty much does whatever needs to be done, consequences/feelings/etc aside. (See Dassem's daughter, other commentary about him). Of course this could simply be his Jaghut nature.

2) He's old as hell. He's been around a looooong looong looooooooooong time. Old enough to predate the Tyrant ruling line? Possibly. I'd say so.

3) Hood assumed his role unwillingly from what we can tell. Was he chosen by A master of the deck/errant/whatever or was it forced upon him by others? Maybe it was both.

I'd like to elaborate on this. The original Tyrant was so bad he gave bad a bad name. He scared the shit out of everyone. Now lets say this Tyrant was caught up or drafted or spearheaded this war on death. What better way to get rid of a monstrous scary asshole that terrifies everyone than to force him to become the Lord of Death and in doing so, gets him the hell outta Dodge and people can live a little easier. He's tricked/picked/etc into Godhood (which probably suited him at first or at least baited him) but as a result he can't really mettle in the affairs of the Jaghut and everyone else. He has rules he has to follow.

4) The Tyrants turn has been foretold. Convergences, blah blah blah. People are crapping themselves. If there is more detail in the book how the Tyrant is supposed to return I don't remember reading it. Maybe I can get some quote fu from others. From what we've seen in the first 8 books and some of the others, all the god's and some of the Ascendants know about convergences and how to play for the long haul. Hood could simply have been waiting for his moment to find a way to break free.



Possible counters:

1) Hood seemed like he was just misunderstood and wasn't all that bad from the most recent glimpses in TTH and such.
R) Raest was a huge asshole too but lately he seems like he's come to terms with his interment and will still being a bit standoffish, he doesn't appear to be such a monumental shithead anymore either.

2) Hood doesn't seem that bad. He let his army of the dead choose to fight or risk oblivion and help stave off chaos, etc etc.
R) And now he is no longer the Lord of Death and is quite possibly free to roam, much like the Seguleh 2nd now that his service has ended. Now its time to return to Darujistan and get back to the basics. Or maybe he has changed? Maybe he won't be the horrifying Tyrant of old?


Any thoughts/criticisms/speculation? Build onto the theory or help prove it wrong!

This post has been edited by ISTN4249: 01 July 2009 - 10:06 PM

[KeithF]

Is this talking about the Tyrant who once ruled Darujhistan? Because I thought he was just a petty human/human-seeming king. In GotM, everyone is s***ing bricks about a Tyrant being unleashed, but that was in reference to Raest. They said he could enslave the entire continent; I doubt the Tyrant of Darujhistan was capable of that (since it doesn't sound like he did).

Edit: Also, Hood and the Jaghut war on death predate the foundation of Darujhistan by hundreds of thousands of years. The city was only founded about 2000 years ago, IIRC.

This post has been edited by KeithF: 01 July 2009 - 10:41 PM

[ISTN4249]

Yeah. I guess that bring up a good point but then again Darujistan's age is only mentioned in GotM iirc which makes it suspect

Maybe I read it or remember it wrong but I was under the impression that Raest was a returning tyrant but not the Tyrant of old that was prophecied. I could be entirely wrong which would make this thread very silly

This post has been edited by ISTN4249: 01 July 2009 - 11:13 PM

[KeithF]

Depends what you mean by "the Tyrant of old that was prophecied". Prophecied where? Ancient tyrants of all sorts are constantly returning or threatening to return (and usually get splatted within about 5 seconds).

[amphibian]

KeithF, on Jul 1 2009, 08:44 PM, said:

Depends what you mean by "the Tyrant of old that was prophecied". Prophecied where? Ancient tyrants of all sorts are constantly returning or threatening to return (and usually get splatted within about 5 seconds).

Baruk, Derrudan and Vorcan are the sole survivors of the T'orrud Cabal, a group of Daru immortals sworn to prevent the return of the Tyrant. Crokus's "uncle", Mammot, was one of them and Vorcan killed at least three others.

In the scene where Brood breaks the sword, Baruk explains a little more (though only delicious little tidbits instead of story dumping) about the arrangement. Basically, he's terrified that Vorcan has decided to kill off the others and make a deal with the Tyrant - which he's somewhat tempted to do himself.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

I would really, really, like to know who the Tyrant is too. That was actually the most disappointing part of TTH for me, I thought we'd get to find out who the Tyrant was/is.

I do get kind of annoyed with some of the speculation I've seen here. Like Keith said, Darujhistan is only about 3000 years old (thats what Baruk tells Rake at least), the Tyrant could not possibly be Raest. We learn from Mammot in GotM that Darujhistan grew out of a collection of mining camps, tribes coming down from the hills, and treasure hunters searching for Raest's tomb because they were trying to find/steal his finnest that had been buried with him. Raest cannot be the Tyrant of a city that was not built until well after he was imprisoned.

I guess there's 3 possibilities for who the Tyrant could be.
1)An original powerful being that has been imprisoned for a long time and is finally going to be released, or just left for a long time.
2)Someone we don't know about that has just been laying low, waiting for the cosmos to aline correctly so they can make their triumphant return.
3)A character we know that will fill the soon-to-occur need for a Tyrant, or discover and sit in some throne of power that grants control over the T'orrud Cabal.

Considering there was more than one Tyrant I don't think its the second.

(Random thought, I remember something about the last Tyrant being about 1000 years ago, which would place it around the same time as when Icarium visited the city and built his wheel. Obviously he didn't go into his mindless rage because the city is still standing. But is it possible Icarium didn't like the fact that there was a Tyrant and was responsible for ending the line?)

Edit: never mind, if that was the case Baruk would probably have known who Icarium was when he spoke to Rake about the wheel.

This post has been edited by WhiskeyJackDaniels: 02 July 2009 - 01:47 AM

[D'rek]

Whoever the Tyrant is, he ruled the city for a good long while up to 3000 years ago (thus 297000ish years after Raest was buried) having the Seguleh as his own private army and possibly the T'orrud Cabal as his own elite mage cadre (that they now seek to prevent his return does not mean they were not once under his thumb). After a while, some unknown thing happened to the Tyrant and he was succeeded by a descending line of humans known as the Tyrant Kings (sometimes shortened to just the Tyrants). The Tyrant Kings were mortal dictators, plain and simple, and eventually the last one was replaced by the Daru Council, these are whom Mammot is talking about in GotM. Hope that clarifies things a bit.

As for the Tyrant's identity, there's not really any indicators. He or she would have to have frightful magic to scare the Cabal so much, but that could be nearly anyone. Having a Seguleh army tells us little since their origins are shrouded in mystery. We don't even know if the Tyrant's rule was ended forcibly or not.

Personally, though, I think it's Draconus. He's oft-referenced to have been very cruel and even been called a tyrant a time or two. He's certainly powerful enough to have everyone wetting their pants about it. And lastly, the Tyrant being him explains why the authors refuse to give any hints about who it is just yet.

[KeithF]

Except Draconus has been stuck in Dragnipur for (presumably) hundreds of millenia, so you get the same problem as with Raest...

[chill]

D'rek, on Jul 2 2009, 06:03 AM, said:

Whoever the Tyrant is, he ruled the city for a good long while up to 3000 years ago (thus 297000ish years after Raest was buried)

"The city" being Darujhistan? I thought it was only 2000 years old

D'rek, on Jul 2 2009, 06:03 AM, said:

Personally, though, I think it's Draconus. He's oft-referenced to have been very cruel and even been called a tyrant a time or two. He's certainly powerful enough to have everyone wetting their pants about it. And lastly, the Tyrant being him explains why the authors refuse to give any hints about who it is just yet.

Didn't Draconus get killed a long time before human civilization? The timeline is pretty messy, but I thought the Elder Gods, Anomander, Osserc and the rest were doing their stuff way before humans had anything resembling a city.

edit - allright Keith, you beat me to it

This post has been edited by chill: 02 July 2009 - 08:40 AM

[Raraku]

Theres also a part in TTH where Humble Measure says in an inner monologue that he s found a way to keep Malazans from Darujistan forever in some crypts deep under the city.
i thought this was a foreshadowing of the Tyrants return. i m not a 100% on it as i read TTh about 6 months ago and dont have the book on me rite now

[D'rek]

KeithF, on Jul 2 2009, 04:34 AM, said:

Except Draconus has been stuck in Dragnipur for (presumably) hundreds of millenia, so you get the same problem as with Raest...

You mean to say that a mere timeline issue would stand in the way of the authors' plans?!

Raraku, on Jul 2 2009, 07:19 AM, said:

Theres also a part in TTH where Humble Measure says in an inner monologue that he s found a way to keep Malazans from Darujistan forever in some crypts deep under the city.
i thought this was a foreshadowing of the Tyrants return. i m not a 100% on it as i read TTh about 6 months ago and dont have the book on me rite now

Well the whole Humble Measure thing is the Tyrant's return, HM seems to be trying to prepare for his return, including ridding the city of Malazans, getting some political leverage and killing significant threats like Vorcan. Though what he found in the crypts is unknown, could be more pickled Seguleh perchance...

[Aptorian]

Draconus was present at the "Cursing of Kallor" which took place some hundred thousand years ago. For all we know it's only been a thousand years since Rake fought Draconus, all though it's more likely that Draconus was brought down not long after, as the curse took affect.

And as to who the Tyrant is.... THE CRIPPLED CAT!

[D'rek]

Aptorian, on Jul 2 2009, 04:58 PM, said:

Draconus was present at the "Cursing of Kallor" which took place some hundred thousand years ago. For all we know it's only been a thousand years since Rake fought Draconus, all though it's more likely that Draconus was brought down not long after, as the curse took affect.

The bit in MoI where Tool talks about Rake, Brood, Envy and QoD might offer some vague insight into when Draconus got dragnipur'd, or at least into when he didn't. Anyone got MoI close to hand?

[lobo the wolfman]

D'rek, on Jul 3 2009, 09:45 AM, said:

Aptorian, on Jul 2 2009, 04:58 PM, said:

Draconus was present at the "Cursing of Kallor" which took place some hundred thousand years ago. For all we know it's only been a thousand years since Rake fought Draconus, all though it's more likely that Draconus was brought down not long after, as the curse took affect.

The bit in MoI where Tool talks about Rake, Brood, Envy and QoD might offer some vague insight into when Draconus got dragnipur'd, or at least into when he didn't. Anyone got MoI close to hand?

Jest checked MOI, and it doesn't say much only that Rake and Envy traveled together with a mortal who was to become the Queen of Dreams, and the book that Burak was reading in TTH said that Rake went after Draconus during the time that the dragons where fighting each other (feral vs first born and soletaken i guess) and around the time of K'rul's bargin with the first borns. I guess that Draconus was done in way before Darujhistan was around.

Also remember that there was more then one Jaghut Tyrant, not just Raest, and the word tyrant is one SE uses quite often.

[Vengeance]

I would hazard a guess that it isn't a person who we have heard of. Of course it could be Osseric... He has the power and could probably be tyranty in a pinch... You know that it has to be someone who had enough power to enslave at least most of if not all of the Cabal. I would say that the Cabal teamed up with the original Seguleh (perhaps the first is an ascendant himself thus immortal) to take the Tyrant down. Could be Grizzeral Farn (sp) the elder god who has been missing for bloody ever. Actually that one wouldn't be so bad. It would explain his power from sacrifices and what not. It would also explain why everyone would be so scared of him...A pissed off elder god would scare the piss out of me...

[D'rek]

Or maybe its Gumble...

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

I don't know if this counts as evidence of Draconus having been trapped in Dragnipur for a very long time because I'm not sure where I remember this from, but I think I remember we get a scene inside Dragnipur during one of the books. During the scene some demon or being collapses and Draconus picks him up and tosses him on top of the wagon. I think Draconus muses to himself that the demon had been in the sword so long it had been put there by Draconus himself. If someone can tell me what books we actually get pov's from inside the sword I'll look for it.

[Lisheo]

The tyrant cannot logically be an Elder God, as most of them have been accounted for for quite a while, if we think about their own individual fates.
Now, one thing I would like to point out, is that why do you pickle something? To stop it going off. Why would you want bodies to not go off? So you could return the souls to them when the time is right.
This means, whoever the Tyrant is, he has access to Hood's Warren, and considerable power. More to the point, he has seemingly more regard for life than the Segulah themselves if the pickled ones are anything to go by, yet he ruled over Darujhistan with an iron fist, scaring mages under his control.
Did anyone ever wonder if the "Tyrant" was actually protecting Darujhistan? He kept his Segulah from rotting. If he truly didn't care, I think we can presume he could simply bring them back as true undead. Keeping the Mage Guild under control is keeping magery under control.
I'm beginning to wonder if the Tyrant was simply protecting Darujhistan from what lay underneath it, in those tombs. HM was, when you think about it, killing off any enemies with the power to thwart him, or the power to maybe protect the city.
I think whatever lies beneath the city needed the Segulah, a Cabal of powerful mages, and a hard-handed, cruel, yet not evil ruler with power over death to stop it... So, Elder God, or Jaghut Tyrants, or Forkrul Assail, or demons. But bad news, anyway.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Ok found what I was thinking of in MoI:
Pg 748..."A grunt from Draconus drew his attention. Directly in their path, tangled in chains gone slack, lay a huge, demonic figure. 'Byrys. I myself killed him, so long ago. I did not think...' He came up to the black-skinned creature, reached down and -to Paran's astonishment- heaved it over a shoulder. 'To the wagon,' Draconus said, 'my old nemesis...' Who summoned me,' the demon rumbled, 'to do battle with you?' 'Ever the same question, Byrys. I do not know, I have never known.'

So I guess that wasn't really as conclusive as I remembered, but you do get the sense that Draconus has been in the sword so long that he has grown tired of conversations with some of the beings trapped within. And since we learn in TtH that you aren't always next to the same people, and there are probably thousands inside there, it would take awhile for anyone to seem repetitive I bet.

[chill]

@Lisheo - It could be that the Tyrant was protecting Darujhistan from something, but why would it have to be underneath it? There are lots of scary things on the surface of Malazworld And if there is a threat beneath the city, it has to live with natural gas... As far as I can tell, it could only be undead.

And I think the tyrant is human. I vaguely remember an awesome qoute about Kallor (MoI prologue I think), something like "It took a mortal to achieve such tyrany over his kin". It doesn't have to be super-powerful as much as super-smart. Like Kruppe.