[Ginaz]

Hi.

First time writer long time reader.
Just thought I'd input my 5 cents worth on the identity of the Tyrant as I had a strong feeling that the tyrant is indeed undead and we have met him, or rather Harllo junior has. My reasoning for that is mainly the Ending of chapter thirteen on page 499 - 501 (in my edition) The T'lan Imass known as Dev'ad Anan Tol thinks:

"The tyrant of old was gone. Somewhere close, then, waited an empty throne."

Besides that he's an Imass who has broken from the ritual by having singular awareness and even forged weapons of Iron. Furthermore he's a victim of Raest for being to ambitious.

[The Crow]

@Ginaz: Except for the fact that Dev'ad gets Azath-ed while raging at Raest, or some such.
Raest points it out when Barathol and Antsy comes to the Finnest house at the end of TTH.

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on Jul 5 2009, 10:53 PM, said:

Well, the fact that he was gone for a long time, and basically inactive, doesn't mean that people would forget someone as powerful and important as him.

D'rek, on Jul 6 2009, 12:56 PM, said:

K'rul temple -> what WJD said above, and also he didn't disappear all that long ago, though still possibly more than 3000 years ago (Raest mentioning when could be a GotMism)

@WhiskeyJackDaniels: This is beside the point, people didn't forget about K'rul because he took a holiday trip to Chaos, they stopped worshipping him because that was the K'rul part of Kallor's Curse.

@D'rek: This is related to what I just wrote in response to WJD, even if it is uncertain how long ago it was that he disappeared, the worship of K'rul as a god ended several hundred thousand years ago. And since no worship would mean no temples being built, SapperNovice's question of why there is a K'rul temple in a 3000 year old city is in no way easily dismissed.


The explanation I find most likely would be that the temple was there long before the city was built, but I agree with SapperNovice that if it was indeed built AFTER Darujhistan was founded, then we got some serious timeline (see what I did there?) issues.

[Steel General]

I think Kruppe is secretly the Tyrant in disguise

[Tarcanus]

Quote

Ok found what I was thinking of in MoI:
Pg 748..."A grunt from Draconus drew his attention. Directly in their path, tangled in chains gone slack, lay a huge, demonic figure. 'Byrys. I myself killed him, so long ago. I did not think...' He came up to the black-skinned creature, reached down and -to Paran's astonishment- heaved it over a shoulder. 'To the wagon,' Draconus said, 'my old nemesis...' Who summoned me,' the demon rumbled, 'to do battle with you?' 'Ever the same question, Byrys. I do not know, I have never known.'

So I guess that wasn't really as conclusive as I remembered, but you do get the sense that Draconus has been in the sword so long that he has grown tired of conversations with some of the beings trapped within. And since we learn in TtH that you aren't always next to the same people, and there are probably thousands inside there, it would take awhile for anyone to seem repetitive I bet.

This could possibly give a clue as to a definitive point in Draconus' life, though. The demon states that someone summoned it to fight Draconus. If there are any hints throughout the books that would point out who summoned it, we would have a definite point on the timeline when Draconus was still alive and well.

[D'rek]

Tarcanus, on Aug 27 2009, 04:22 PM, said:

Quote

Ok found what I was thinking of in MoI:
Pg 748..."A grunt from Draconus drew his attention. Directly in their path, tangled in chains gone slack, lay a huge, demonic figure. 'Byrys. I myself killed him, so long ago. I did not think...' He came up to the black-skinned creature, reached down and -to Paran's astonishment- heaved it over a shoulder. 'To the wagon,' Draconus said, 'my old nemesis...' Who summoned me,' the demon rumbled, 'to do battle with you?' 'Ever the same question, Byrys. I do not know, I have never known.'

So I guess that wasn't really as conclusive as I remembered, but you do get the sense that Draconus has been in the sword so long that he has grown tired of conversations with some of the beings trapped within. And since we learn in TtH that you aren't always next to the same people, and there are probably thousands inside there, it would take awhile for anyone to seem repetitive I bet.

This could possibly give a clue as to a definitive point in Draconus' life, though. The demon states that someone summoned it to fight Draconus. If there are any hints throughout the books that would point out who summoned it, we would have a definite point on the timeline when Draconus was still alive and well.

Not really, because even Dragnipur was around long before it was a sword. In the MoI prologue he says he's been working on the sword for a while but needs to alter its final shaping, so Dragnipur could already exist in some form but is not complete, or the chain-and-wagon could even be a seperate thing that he incorporates into Dragnipur-the-sword later on. In RotCG

Spoiler

we see it as a big void he carries around with him

. Thus Byrys could have been killed by Draconus hundreds of thousands of years prior to him getting Dragnipur'd himself. He'd only have been talking to Byrys for about a thousand years, but frankly that's still a pretty freaking long time to get tired of a guy who only asks one question...

[Tarcanus]

Quote

Thus Byrys could have been killed by Draconus hundreds of thousands of years prior to him getting Dragnipur'd himself

Very true, but I was thinking that if it was at all possible to pinpoint the time when Byrys was sent to fight Draconus, we would have a definitive signpost, so to speak, of when Draconus was still alive. To my way of thinking, how far along he was in forging Dragnipur is irrelevant at that point. We just want a signpost as to the last time Draconus was recorded as 'alive' before being 'killed' by Dragnipur. Once we had the time signpost, we'd be able to work with it in the timeline(as functional as it is) and then be able to use that to determine other events.

I was just throwing out a possible idea as to how to narrow the timeframe we're talking about.

[D'rek]

Tarcanus, on Aug 28 2009, 01:13 PM, said:

Quote

Thus Byrys could have been killed by Draconus hundreds of thousands of years prior to him getting Dragnipur'd himself

Very true, but I was thinking that if it was at all possible to pinpoint the time when Byrys was sent to fight Draconus, we would have a definitive signpost, so to speak, of when Draconus was still alive. To my way of thinking, how far along he was in forging Dragnipur is irrelevant at that point. We just want a signpost as to the last time Draconus was recorded as 'alive' before being 'killed' by Dragnipur. Once we had the time signpost, we'd be able to work with it in the timeline(as functional as it is) and then be able to use that to determine other events.

I was just throwing out a possible idea as to how to narrow the timeframe we're talking about.

That would be nice, but we won't get it because that'd be too convenient and it would conflict with something else anyways. The way I figure it, he was alive for a very, very long time with his not-a-sword-Dragnipur, and making Dragnipur a sword and getting Dragnipur'd himself are very recent. As for him supposedly working on the sword for hundreds of thousands of years within making much progress, I'll just chalk that down to Draconus being one of those people who claim to have on-the-go projects or hobbies but never actually get around to doing them. Like married men building a deck ...

[Varen]

I was doing a reread of HoC and noticed one of Andarists comments to Cutter when they first meet, i remember speculating on it when i first read it but had completely forgotten about it within about 100 pages or so. The quotes are from page 438 of the British version of the Bantam mmpb.


"You may call me Darist. We must not delay. The very presence of life in this place risks his awakening."
The ancient Tiste Andii turned to face the stone wall. At a gesture, a doorway appeared, beyond which where stone stairs leading upwards.
"That which survived the wrecking of your craft awaits you above, Cutter, come."
The Daru set off after the man."Awakening? Who might awaken?"
Darist did not reply.

Think this is a possible location for the Tyrant? I got the feeling that what Humble Measure was looking for under the city could be the throne that Harllo's T'lan Imass mentioned.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Varen, on 28 October 2009 - 01:59 PM, said:

I was doing a reread of HoC and noticed one of Andarists comments to Cutter when they first meet, i remember speculating on it when i first read it but had completely forgotten about it within about 100 pages or so. The quotes are from page 438 of the British version of the Bantam mmpb.


"You may call me Darist. We must not delay. The very presence of life in this place risks his awakening."
The ancient Tiste Andii turned to face the stone wall. At a gesture, a doorway appeared, beyond which where stone stairs leading upwards.
"That which survived the wrecking of your craft awaits you above, Cutter, come."
The Daru set off after the man."Awakening? Who might awaken?"
Darist did not reply.

Think this is a possible location for the Tyrant? I got the feeling that what Humble Measure was looking for under the city could be the throne that Harllo's T'lan Imass mentioned.

I'm not sure what it is that might awaken, but for what its worth I don't think its the Tyrant of Darujhistan. Cutter meets Andarist on Drift Avalii, an island far away from Darujhistan. Also, do you think Rake really would have moved the throne of shadow to a small island that is apparently the resting place of a being so powerful he had the T'orrud Cabal as his personal mages, and the Seguleh as his army.

[Varen]

Well it depends on the Timeline, I was going on the basis that the throne had been moved to Drift Avali before the Tyrant. But i guess it would've meant Rake had some interaction with the T'orrud Cabal previously, which he didnt. Hadnt really thought it through to well, was just intrigued by who the mystery character was.

[rhulad]

I do not think that we have met the tyrant yet, and I don't think that it is metaphorical. It is probably some dead tyrant king that is entombed under the city.

[Dredge]

The Tyrant is surely Kruppe's evil twin, whose monstrous flatulence keeps the blue flames of Darujhistan burning brightly!

[Hops]

I think the Tyrant is infact the bedraggled dead cat "Tufty", we probably wont hear anymore about it now that poor old Tufty is trapped in the Azath House.

A good thing I would say too, if there's one thing that can bring all of mankind to it's knees it's pus............ ummm, yeah that'll do from me I think.

[Inkiper]

In TTH there is persona which name is Tulas he was the first owner of the hounds. Then he had situatuion with kotilion which was affraid of this guy, his second spirit was death giant dragon. And maybe Gathos was one of the tyrants? Even Kallor had shivers when he met him in the tower, during travelling with group of tiste...

[HoosierDaddy]

Gothos is an extremely powerful Jaghut, but he himself admits to fighting Jaghut Tyrants, so I don't think he is a Tyrant. Tulas was Edur, so I don't think he is the Tyrant, as he's been dead for a very long time.

[Inkiper]

hmm maybe u r right, but thinkin' about tyrant, why edur couldn't be one?

[HoosierDaddy]

Could be, I agree. But, we also know there were many Tyrants, as Toll spells out when it says, "the last Tyrant of Darujhistan", at one point. Making me think the Tyrant is actually human.

[Pig Iron]

Aren't there Tyrants on Assail too, and those implied to be human? I got the feeling that the city had been ruled by a line of Tyrants. There also seems to be a connection with the First Empire (the Seguleh etymology and so on). Could it be that the Tyrants are powerful humans that are possibly a consequence of the gone-overboard ritual that created Soletaken and D'ivers? Humans on Assail don't seem to be at a normal level of power, cf. the Lost boys from ROTCG.

ICE better be writing hard ...

[D'rek]

Pig Iron, on 09 January 2010 - 10:06 PM, said:

Aren't there Tyrants on Assail too, and those implied to be human? I got the feeling that the city had been ruled by a line of Tyrants. There also seems to be a connection with the First Empire (the Seguleh etymology and so on). Could it be that the Tyrants are powerful humans that are possibly a consequence of the gone-overboard ritual that created Soletaken and D'ivers? Humans on Assail don't seem to be at a normal level of power, cf. the Lost boys from ROTCG.

ICE better be writing hard ...

From GotM, Darujhistan was ruled before by monarchs called the Tyrant Kings, but as far as we know they aren't the same as the one Tyrant. Probably the Tyrant Kings were the line of successors to the original Tyrant but didn't have his fearsome abilities. Also as far as we know, there is no connection to Assail, nor necessarily any connection to the Jaghut Tyrants.

[Inkiper]

"Kallor said: 'I walked this land when the T'lan Imass were but children. I have commanded armies a hundred thousand strong. I have spread the fire of my wrath across entire continents, and sat alone upon tall thrones. Do you grasp the meaning of this?'
'Yes,' said Caladan Brood, 'you never learn.'

This from user Esotericforce...i remember that scene...and thinking, Kallor as oldest persona in MboF (high King Kallor)...when K'rul was communicating with draconus and burn...he was thinkin' not only about this specific situation of exterminating milions of people, but he was talkin' about earlier situations, much more earlier...and we know that kallor was tyrant worst than jaghut one...

This post has been edited by Inkiper: 10 January 2010 - 10:00 PM