[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

HoosierDaddy, on Jun 3 2009, 11:34 PM, said:

Technically, Sith are Jedi. They are just Dark Jedi. Also, wouldn't be surprised if Mandalorians were playable as a sort of mercenary faction that could side on either side depending upon the player.

If this is the "actual" first Sith Wars, then it's Exar Kun, Ulic Qel-Droma, and a player to be named later that leads it. However, odds are this is either set immediately prior to KOTOR I or after KOTOR II.

Nope. Your Star Wars-fu has failed you. Sith are not technically jedi. While they do use the force, and the same weapons, they don't follow the Jedi belief system, thus making them not Jedi. Use of the force does not a Jedi make. I understand what you're saying though. It's a subtle distinction, but if we'e going to have a nerd debate, why not make it trivial!

[MTS]

Well, technically the first Sith (not the now-extinct species of the same name on Korriban ) were fallen Jedi, and a number of prominent Sith leaders were Jedi originally, so they would've had to be at least a semblance of the Jedi Code in Sith beliefs, as it's ultimately derivative. But I think Hoosier was just being general and you're being beary pedantic .

This post has been edited by Mappo's Travelling Sack: 04 June 2009 - 08:05 AM

[HoosierDaddy]

You are only right in a few instances, and that is where a force sensitive person is brought up solely amongst the Sith. They are then, Sith and only Sith. However, the fandom and canon has much more intances of "fallen Jedi" Sith, and therefore most Sith are in fact Jedi that have succombed to the Dark Side. I do, however, grant your initial point
that not all Sith are Jedi. They are force users.

Edit: Nice X post with MTS.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 04 June 2009 - 08:04 AM

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Of course I'm being pedantic. That makes for the best nerd arguments. And I have a life pass to be pedantic anytime I want, being one of the founders of pedantic bear in the first place. That said...

True, many Sith are fallen Jedi. Notice the fallen part though. Once you are no longer in the jedi Order, you are not a Jedi. You are ex-Jedi.

This logic works with other organizations as well. Imagine a Catholic, who converts to Lutheranism. Are they still Catholic? No, they're Lutheran, even though Lutheranism is in a lot of way derivative of Catholicism, and in some ways indistinguishable to outsiders. Same deal, A Jedi "converts" to being Sith, they are now Sith, not Jedi.

Ah, the joys of quibbling over minutia of fictional organizations. My wife would weep if she knew how I'm spending my free time.

[HoosierDaddy]

How dare you bring Catholicism or Christianity into a Star Wars argument!

I feel sullied. They are still ex-Jedi, thus the name remains.

Edit: I yelled at Ray, and feel bad for doing so. He makes a decent point.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 04 June 2009 - 08:39 AM

[Aptorian]

SITH ARE CANDY STEALING NAZI'S

[HoosierDaddy]

I am currently wondering where you would fall on the Jedi-Sith spectrum, Apt. Hmmmm.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

HoosierDaddy, on Jun 4 2009, 01:33 AM, said:

HOW DARE YOU BRING CATHOLICISM OR CHRISTIANITY INTO A STAR WARS CONVERSATION! FOR SHAME!

I feel sullied. They are still ex-Jedi, thus the name remains.

You're not going to admit that an ex-Jedi is no longer a Jedi? By definition, an "ex" member of any organization is no longer part of that organization.

Jedi is a belief system, that is accompanied by a code of conduct. If you no longer follow the belief system, or the code of conduct, you are no longer Jedi. Thus, Sith who have left the Jedi order are no longer Jedi.

I would make an allowance that retired Jedi could still be considered Jedi, as they probably still consider themselves to be so, and most likely more or less still follow the belief system and code of conduct. A Sith who is an ex-Jedi, however, has either been cast out of the order or repudiated it of their own choice, and if asked would not refer to themselves as Jedi.

edit: No worries Hoosier, I wasn't at all offended. Nerd rage has made all of us snap at someone at one time or another. And I am being awfully picky.

This post has been edited by Raymond Luxury Yacht: 04 June 2009 - 08:45 AM

[HoosierDaddy]

Raymond Luxury Yacht, on Jun 4 2009, 04:42 AM, said:

You're not going to admit that an ex-Jedi is no longer a Jedi? By definition, an "ex" member of any organization is no longer part of that organization.

Jedi is a belief system, that is accompanied by a code of conduct. If you no longer follow the belief system, or the code of conduct, you are no longer Jedi. Thus, Sith who have left the Jedi order are no longer Jedi.

I would make an allowance that retired Jedi could still be considered Jedi, as they probably still consider themselves to be so, and most likely more or less still follow the belief system and code of conduct. A Sith who is an ex-Jedi, however, has either been cast out of the order or repudiated it of their own choice.

No, I am simply arguing that a Jedi who has fallen to the dark-side is still a Jedi. See: Skywalker, Anakin. Sith Lord, redeemed at the Battle of the Second Death Star.

A force-user that learned as a Jedi is always a Jedi, until the day he dies. A Sith is simply a Jedi who has not yet turned or turned back.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

HoosierDaddy, on Jun 4 2009, 01:47 AM, said:

No, I am simply arguing that a Jedi who has fallen to the dark-side is still a Jedi. See: Skywalker, Anakin. Sith Lord, redeemed at the Battle of the Second Death Star.

A force-user that learned as a Jedi is always a Jedi, until the day he dies. A Sith is simply a Jedi who has not yet turned or turned back.

Ah, but that is not the point you originally made. You said

Quote

Technically, Sith are Jedi. They are just Dark Jedi.

These are different arguments. A darkside user is not automatically a Sith, although the two often go hand in hand. Like being Jedi, being Sith involves membership in an organization, and following a set of beliefs and code of conduct.

Anakin is a gray area. He was still technically a Jedi, although he could be considered an unwitting Sith mole. During this period of his life, you could still call him Jedi, as he thought he was still Jedi, jedi still accepted him as such, and on some level he thought he was still doing the right thing. Once he became Vader though, he was Sith, not Jedi. You could make the argument that when he turned back and saved Luke and killed the Emperor, he had repudiated the Sith and was living up to Jedi standards, and so for a short while was Jedi again before he died. When he was running around blowing up planets and force choking people though, he was no longer Jedi.

edit: If HD went to bed before me, have I filibustered my way in to winning the debate?

This post has been edited by Raymond Luxury Yacht: 04 June 2009 - 09:30 AM

[Cause]

That video shows the sacking of coruscant(sp?). So its the end of the great galatic war. The game will than start during the cold war when the republic and the sith basically each rule one half of the galaxy and the Jedi have been exiled from coruscant(sp?) and back to tython(sp?)

[Gothos]

to quote Kreia...
Sith is a belief.

anyways, it looks pretty promising. I think they will emulate at least some of WoW's elements because it's been proven that it fits. I hope they won't go over their heads with being revolutionary for the sake of being revolutionary. the game has to be playable, and playable for tens of thousands of hours - that's what playing an MMO is like.
also, let's remember that having a great setting doesn't guarantee a great game. it doesn't even guarantee a good game, and especially in the MMO division. we've had Age of Conan, we've had SW: Galaxies, we've had Warhammer: Age of Reckoning, all based on awesome, time-honored settings, however they were just bad games (AoC would be an awesome single player game tho!).
I'll definately try this out when it's released. it better be good tho! let's have faith in Bioware

[Assail]

I, for one, hope to all hell they do Star Wars justice. It's going to be difficult at first, players are going to want to go everywhere in the galaxy, fight every battle, have every battleground and ruin exactly how it should be with no mistakes. The problem with undertaking an endeavor like making a Star Wars MMO is the sheer size of the info about Star Wars. It'll be cool to see how it pans out, and if they do a good job, I might just buy it

Hmm, could be wrong but I understood Sith as two things.

The original people, the Sith, were the first to 'distort' the force and use it for evil, destructive purposes. As the father's of this 'dark art' those fallen Jedi who switched to those same powers also became Sith.

So, Sith = original people, yes? (Darth Maul etc etc) And Sith also = fallen Jedi who have turned from the Light side of the force. There is of couse the special exceptions where individuals have grown up with a Sith and thus have turned to the Dark Side.

Or did I miss the point?

Long drive to the airport, phone posting is hardddddd.

[Eddie Dean]

HD mentioned the timeline of this game. It is supposed to be 300 years after KOTOR 2.

[Lisheo]

Your Star Wars nerd has arrived to end the confusion.
The Sith were a race of force sensitive aliens. One day, a bunch of Jedi who were damn unhappy with the whole mentality fled to their planet, and decided to basically give in to their urges and take the place over.
After centuries, they basically adopted the name, as there was a certain amount of interbeeding and such.
Cue big, long, silly history of Sith infighting and such.
Technically, all the current Sith are just Dark Jedi; not actually members of the original faction, nor, I believe, descendants, though its all a little unclear. Their is only ever one Sith Lord and one Sith Apprentice in the galaxy at one time since the fall of the original Sith; hence the reason why they get kicked crapless all the time in the movies.
The original Sith faction destroyed itself through infighting and such, and the faction that exist now are basically one long line of fallen Jedi who found Sith holocrons and such.

[Eddie Dean]

In KOTOR 2 didn't it mention that the "true Sith" were still existent beyond charted space?

Edit: interview with bioware at e3 http://e3.g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/69619...ic-Preview.html

This post has been edited by Eddie Dean: 04 June 2009 - 03:26 PM

[Gothos]

Lisheo, on Jun 4 2009, 03:09 PM, said:

Their is only ever one Sith Lord and one Sith Apprentice in the galaxy at one time since the fall of the original Sith;

that rule was implemented by Darth Bane. every time before, what befell the Sith was infighting, backstabbing, treachery and all that, too many people striving for power. So from Darth Bane onwards (he killed the entire Sith orded except for his newly appointed apprentice) there would only be one Lord (to wield the power of the Dark Side) and one apprentice (to crave it)

[MTS]

Assail, on Jun 5 2009, 01:03 AM, said:

So, Sith = original people, yes? (Darth Maul etc etc) And Sith also = fallen Jedi who have turned from the Light side of the force. There is of couse the special exceptions where individuals have grown up with a Sith and thus have turned to the Dark Side.

*pedantic nerd speaking* one little quibble...Maul is not a Sith (species), he's a Zabrak, I believe. There are no living Sith in the Republic around the time of Maul.

Lish and Gothos pretty much nailed the rest.

[Assail]

Mappo's Travelling Sack, on Jun 4 2009, 09:13 AM, said:

Assail, on Jun 5 2009, 01:03 AM, said:

So, Sith = original people, yes? (Darth Maul etc etc) And Sith also = fallen Jedi who have turned from the Light side of the force. There is of couse the special exceptions where individuals have grown up with a Sith and thus have turned to the Dark Side.

*pedantic nerd speaking* one little quibble...Maul is not a Sith (species), he's a Zabrak, I believe. There are no living Sith in the Republic around the time of Maul.

Lish and Gothos pretty much nailed the rest.

Oh thats right. My bad, I'll admit to my Star Wars Fu being not so great In the airport bored out of my fucking mind right now. Found plenty of weird fuckers to stare at though LOL.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

All good points. I completely agree that Sith are fallen Jedi. The disagreement is coming from the question of if a fallen Jedi is still jedi. I say no, if you're fallen enough from the jedi to be considered Sith, you're no longer Jedi. i seem to be alone in this though, everyone else seems to be of the "once a Jedi always a jedi" mindset. I just think that once someone renounces the Jedi, the jedi renounce them, and they begin to identify themselves as Sith, they're out of the club. They aren't dark Jedi, that is an oxymoron. Jedi aren't evil. Once you become evil, you are no longer Jedi. Incredibly minor distinction, but hey, it's been fun.