[Path-Shaper]

OK, I'm off

JA

[Malaese]

ment, I didn't say less insane finders, I was making a point that when you put that in the game it hurts the inno's more than the scum at least early game, same as vigs do and it's something to keep in mind when balancing a game. I'm fine with no finders like in 45 I think, but make it clear in the rules there aren't any so people learn to do for themselves instead of relying on a mechanic.

[Mentalist]

well, that's kind of the point i'm making--it hurts the innos, b/c they expect a finder. and they expect a finder reveal to be true. no one ever questions finders, that's the problem.

[Khellendros]

Malaese, on May 14 2009, 08:00 PM, said:

Gem Windcaster, on May 14 2009, 11:17 AM, said:

On the topic of playing RI: people think I hate playing RI, but it's not that, it's just that I feel I am lousy at it, and that I think it's hard to do. Generally it depends on the game what kind of play I make of it. I take playing RI very seriously, that's why I sometimes explode - I think it's the same with Venge. We both take the role very seriously, so we get very frustrated when faced with ridiculous (we think) accusations and such. I think the average RI player that generally play sheep and do nothing on their own is a worse RI player - if you at least invest something in the role, you have more to loose.

Gem I don't want to attack you but I want to note what you say is part of the problem. It's not worse actually, it's another style and has it's benefits. If I could only tell a new player 1 thing about RI it'd be, have fun and don't steal focus. The most powerful mechanic in the game is your brain not some power you are given. So it's perfectly reasonable that an RI player would want to get to the end game to try and figure it out. It's also part of the sentiment that RI is just cannon fodder and there is a certain logic to that strategy, but the flip-side is you can't wonder why people get frustrated drawing the role.

I think there is too much finger pointing going on in the game and in the SH speculation outside of the game about good and bad gameplay people are really uptight about it and stuck into that "my way is best" mindset. Just as an example, I don't think Pb is playing his best game, but he's not playing the game wrong by any stretch, but some of the comments in here are going to be harsh for him to read afterwards I think. No different than people getting salty in the game thread about what someone is doing. You may not like it, but fuck me it almost worked with Gamelon and drumstick. You can't argue that!

I think I agree with a large part of what's being said here about RI. Certainly, when I'm RI I don't treat it like a cannon fodder role. If anything, when I'm RI I want to prove that it's no disability to finding the killers. Yes, others may have roles, but usually during the day they have only exactly the same thing I have to rely on - plain old wits. And I want to survive to the end - it feels even more like an accomplishment when you're poor defenceless RI.

As for PB's play...I agree with Sir Thursday's summation above. It's a perfectly legit strategy, and if nothing else it sure makes for an entertaining read for us, and an entertaining game for them even though they may be frustrated - it's still a million times better than no one posting anything of note. I do also get the feeling that PB expended way too much effort and energy clamping on to the very first 'slip' he thought he'd identified. It's also one thing to be sure of yourself, and another to be sure of yourself but not explain exactly why - which is what PB's being doing quite often and you can see why it makes the others frustrated.

Having said all that, the couple of games I myself have been involved in with PB, he's been outstanding.

This post has been edited by Khellendros: 14 May 2009 - 07:48 PM

[Khellendros]

Haha, just saw Korv's "warren" case on Gamelon, funny stuff

[bwgan]

I know I am one of those that fall into the sheeple category...not because I want or like it, but because 1) I am afraid of drawing fire (remember I have only been a total RI once - yeah, yeah I know - and if you have a role it so easy to end up playing like scum...) 2) I genuinely have difficulty being nasty to people...which is what it seems you need to be if making cases...it's a bit of a handicap in mafia, this need of mine to always see the best in people .

In the last game I had such a hard time trying to keep up with the thread, work out who was worth saving, trying to avoid scum, avoid being lynched myself....I didn't have any brain power left for cases!

The thing is different people = different styles. Some may be better than others, but in this sort of game who is to say who is right?...Yeah, I know Obdi!!!!


Anyway, best check the thread and pms etc...

[Path-Shaper]

Path-Shaper, on May 14 2009, 03:29 PM, said:

One last PM from Grief, and I'm off to bed:

Telas said:

Quote

Quote

Investigate Ruse please.

Your request is noted - thanks.

- bwgan

It's nice to have a mod who doesn't sound like they're laughing at you in SH.

You're not laughing right.

RIGHT?

Anyway, you know I said I was having a bit of a difficult day? Well you wouldn't believe what just happened in RL whilst I was reading the game thread....I'm not going to tell you, because in my daughter's words (which are very apt) it was totally GROSS and very distracting....*sigh*.


Edit: In case you didn't know this is bwgan.

This post has been edited by Path-Shaper: 14 May 2009 - 08:28 PM

[Malaese]

bwgan, on May 14 2009, 01:11 PM, said:

I know I am one of those that fall into the sheeple category...not because I want or like it, but because 1) I am afraid of drawing fire (remember I have only been a total RI once - yeah, yeah I know - and if you have a role it so easy to end up playing like scum...) 2) I genuinely have difficulty being nasty to people...which is what it seems you need to be if making cases...it's a bit of a handicap in mafia, this need of mine to always see the best in people .

In the last game I had such a hard time trying to keep up with the thread, work out who was worth saving, trying to avoid scum, avoid being lynched myself....I didn't have any brain power left for cases!

The thing is different people = different styles. Some may be better than others, but in this sort of game who is to say who is right?...Yeah, I know Obdi!!!!


Anyway, best check the thread and pms etc...

don't let them fool you bwgan you don't always have to make cases, in fact if all 6-8 RI's felt they had to make cases all the time along with everyone else that wants to get in on it, well that'd be a huge cluster. a huge part of being innocent is reading the cases and picking the one you agree with as well. it's just as strong and doesn't steal focus. for their to be leaders there has to be followers as well, and don't buy the sheep arguement, but don't discount it either because it could always be the wolf leading you. another big part I think people miss out on is reasonable denfense when the case is on them.

[Path-Shaper]

That's the bit that cracks me up sometimes. If you ignore a case on you then you aren't answering. If you defend against it then you are hysterical/overreating....and absolutely nothing you say seems to make any difference...but hey that's the joy of the paranoia of mafia!

I guess my feeling is there may be strategies for roled players (ie. try to pick an inno to heal ) but there is no one right or wrong way to play the game...if there was it would become very old very fast.

I know it's heresy and I will probably be shot, but I'll be honest I don't get this love for M&P (errm not bread and butter as I called it ). I like merc games...you know who the enemy is then...everyone else not in your team! I'm a simple soul at heart.


Edit: Grrr, arrgh, grrr, spit - bwgan

This post has been edited by Path-Shaper: 14 May 2009 - 08:40 PM

[Path-Shaper]

A pm from Fenent - titled ahem *cough* For fucks sake

Quote

Im not even pushing the case. Hell look at last game, THATS pushing a shitty day one case. Wow. Just wow.

Meanigore's reply

Quote

Quote

Im not even pushing the case. Hell look at last game, THATS pushing a shitty day one case. Wow. Just wow.

I know, Silanah interjected himself into my argument with Ruse today, and then started claiming that I am blowing up at him day after day.

Is DK just playing fucking horribly, or is he evil?

[Gem Windcaster]

Malaese, on May 14 2009, 08:29 PM, said:

bwgan, on May 14 2009, 01:11 PM, said:

I know I am one of those that fall into the sheeple category...not because I want or like it, but because 1) I am afraid of drawing fire (remember I have only been a total RI once - yeah, yeah I know - and if you have a role it so easy to end up playing like scum...) 2) I genuinely have difficulty being nasty to people...which is what it seems you need to be if making cases...it's a bit of a handicap in mafia, this need of mine to always see the best in people .

In the last game I had such a hard time trying to keep up with the thread, work out who was worth saving, trying to avoid scum, avoid being lynched myself....I didn't have any brain power left for cases!

The thing is different people = different styles. Some may be better than others, but in this sort of game who is to say who is right?...Yeah, I know Obdi!!!!


Anyway, best check the thread and pms etc...

don't let them fool you bwgan you don't always have to make cases, in fact if all 6-8 RI's felt they had to make cases all the time along with everyone else that wants to get in on it, well that'd be a huge cluster. a huge part of being innocent is reading the cases and picking the one you agree with as well. it's just as strong and doesn't steal focus. for their to be leaders there has to be followers as well, and don't buy the sheep arguement, but don't discount it either because it could always be the wolf leading you. another big part I think people miss out on is reasonable denfense when the case is on them.

I have to say Malaese, you point out exactly what I consider to be bad play, and I always get embarrassed with myself if I play like that. I always try to choose between two tactics, either I play low key and make reasonable cases with a non confrontational tone, or I go confrontational and go after every little thing I see and see if I get a reaction. As RI you shouldn't go too far though, since your job is to stay alive - not die just because.

And then there's the mafia rule of 'if you don't have a role make one for yourself'.

This post has been edited by Gem Windcaster: 14 May 2009 - 09:03 PM

[Khellendros]

Path-Shaper, on May 14 2009, 09:39 PM, said:

That's the bit that cracks me up sometimes. If you ignore a case on you then you aren't answering. If you defend against it then you are hysterical/overreating....and absolutely nothing you say seems to make any difference...but hey that's the joy of the paranoia of mafia!

I guess my feeling is there may be strategies for roled players (ie. try to pick an inno to heal ) but there is no one right or wrong way to play the game...if there was it would become very old very fast.

I know it's heresy and I will probably be shot, but I'll be honest I don't get this love for M&P (errm not bread and butter as I called it ). I like merc games...you know who the enemy is then...everyone else not in your team! I'm a simple soul at heart.


Edit: Grrr, arrgh, grrr, spit - bwgan

I wouldn't say the bit I bolded is quite true. In my experience there's two ways to get out of a case made against you which is picking up some steam:

1) Continually reply calmly and sensibly, even condescendingly. Yeah, I know, we always joke that in mafia you get lynched if you dare to say something sensible, but in reality, if you just continue to be rational and show the case polite contempt, you are far more likely to turn the case than any other type of reaction.

2) The scummy method. The pressure's on you, so put it on someone else. You don't have big suspicions of anyone yet? Well, look at it this way. You know you're innocent. Pretty much anyone else could be a killer. So you may not believe your own case - it partly doesn't matter, as you still have the off-chance you may hit scum with your case. So make that case on someone else, and make it more sensible than the one on yourself.

[Gem Windcaster]

bwgan, having a train on you doesn't mean anything, as long as you can convince enough people to vote elsewhere. I know that when I get frustrated I usually focus on the guy making the case, when in fact I should focus on making a defense that the rest of the people that haven't voted can agree with. One game I survived 2 lynch trains in a row with that tactic. But then I was scum too, I think, and I always get more energy when I am scum - it's a weird psychological phenomenon.

[Path-Shaper]

Don't get me wrong. I am not complaining in any way...this is me after all . I did say seems and if I'm honest once or twice players have defended my defence almost out of the blue, which initially is great...until you start thinking, why are they defending me????

The rest of what you say Khell is really useful as well...I need to get a notebook!

[Gem Windcaster]

Khell, your post made me laugh because I switch the methods around - method one is more scummy imo than method 2.

[Path-Shaper]

@Gem ~ I admit it took me a while to realise that as an RI it is okay to get lynched (upto a point), but you see the cause of my 'angst' is I have played 4 games and been on the winning team in 3 of them *breathes on fingernails and shines them*, but I KNOW it was pure luck.

I have to post a pm now...srssbsns indeed!

- bwgan

[Path-Shaper]

A pm from Tennalt - titled Thoughts

Quote

Just got to work, so wont have chance to post for a while. Hopefully I will be able to sneak away for a bit. Shift work sucks let me tell you.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure Sil is either roled or scum. It's mainly meta, but he very rarely makes this much effort to come online at night if he's RI. My gut says something is up with either Emur or Gam, but I've been pretty brain-dead all of today from having my sleeping patterns screwed with.

If I were you I would get online pretty soon. AFAIK modkill limit is only 24 hours this game and you're getting close to that.

Anyway, I gotta be going.

- bwgan

[Path-Shaper]

I too needs to be off...which is a cheek I know, but I need my beauty sleep. Inbox empty and vote count done.

[Khellendros]

Gem Windcaster, on May 14 2009, 10:12 PM, said:

Khell, your post made me laugh because I switch the methods around - method one is more scummy imo than method 2.

Lol, well, I can see how one might see it that way too (women!)

But I guess the way I see it, with no.1, fact is you know you're innocent, so you know the case on you is BS. Which also means you have nothing to hide, so sneer down at the case. Act sensible because you're not the one being foolish by presenting a BS case on an inno.

And bwgan, I doubt it's only luck that helps you win. I don't think it's ever appeared like you've just muddled your way through in any way. Yes, there is an element of luck to mafia, but skill also. I'm continually amazed how some players spot something that has completely passed me by.

Perhaps the modesty helps you! I say that thinking of my own experience. I was on the winning team in my first ever game, and, even though I died early, I thought I was the shiz. Next game I was on the winning team again, but almost lost it by revealing, in a panic, not only that I was a vig, but that my partner was too, and who they were. After that, I lost about four games in a row. Mafia pulled me back down and kicked me in the groin repeatedly.

And then I tried to kick mafia back and ended up almost breaking the game. I had to take several months out soon after to undergo rehabilitation. Yes, that's where I really was, I admit it now. Mafia rehabilitation.

[Malaese]

Gem Windcaster, on May 14 2009, 02:02 PM, said:

Malaese, on May 14 2009, 08:29 PM, said:

bwgan, on May 14 2009, 01:11 PM, said:

I know I am one of those that fall into the sheeple category...not because I want or like it, but because 1) I am afraid of drawing fire (remember I have only been a total RI once - yeah, yeah I know - and if you have a role it so easy to end up playing like scum...) 2) I genuinely have difficulty being nasty to people...which is what it seems you need to be if making cases...it's a bit of a handicap in mafia, this need of mine to always see the best in people .

In the last game I had such a hard time trying to keep up with the thread, work out who was worth saving, trying to avoid scum, avoid being lynched myself....I didn't have any brain power left for cases!

The thing is different people = different styles. Some may be better than others, but in this sort of game who is to say who is right?...Yeah, I know Obdi!!!!


Anyway, best check the thread and pms etc...

don't let them fool you bwgan you don't always have to make cases, in fact if all 6-8 RI's felt they had to make cases all the time along with everyone else that wants to get in on it, well that'd be a huge cluster. a huge part of being innocent is reading the cases and picking the one you agree with as well. it's just as strong and doesn't steal focus. for their to be leaders there has to be followers as well, and don't buy the sheep arguement, but don't discount it either because it could always be the wolf leading you. another big part I think people miss out on is reasonable denfense when the case is on them.

I have to say Malaese, you point out exactly what I consider to be bad play, and I always get embarrassed with myself if I play like that. I always try to choose between two tactics, either I play low key and make reasonable cases with a non confrontational tone, or I go confrontational and go after every little thing I see and see if I get a reaction. As RI you shouldn't go too far though, since your job is to stay alive - not die just because.

And then there's the mafia rule of 'if you don't have a role make one for yourself'.

It's what you consider to be bad play, doesn't make it bad play, and if nobody ever did what I talked about to bgwan, your play would be obsolete because nobody would listen to you. The game doesn't need 12 people making cases a day, that dilutes focus. Similar to the ingame question why didn't I defend Rashan if I knew he was innocent...I didn't vote him, that's also defending him.